PFL Practice for PPLs??
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Downwind
Age: 40
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PFL Practice for PPLs??
Hi,
I am wondering what you good folks think of the prospect of a fresh PPL holder carrying out PFLs by his/herself are? It was always my limit understanding that such practice is prudent at least and comes recommended by the relevant authorities from high untop. Is this correct?
The reason for my post is that I was prompted by an unforeseen break in the weather and with time on my hands and a plane on the ground I decided to go up for an hour or so and get some time in with stalls, ccts and some PFLs. My plan was to leave the area and do the stalls and steep turns and then go back into circuit for some glide approaches.
I duly went up to the tower (Air/Ground) to let them know the plan for my flight and that it was my intention to come back and do some glide approaches. I was then informed by the man with the clipboard that I was not 'qualified' to do this! Rather shocked that I had been breaking the law oft times before I asked him to explain and he went on to tell me that my licence (PPL) does not authorise me to attempt to land without power! Shirely this can't be correct? What is the difference in landing with or without power? He is, in my view, effectively telling me how to conduct my own flight. After all, the instructor from whom I hire the ac is more than happy with my exercise detail and has no reservations.
I should also make clear that I am fully aware of the implications an aircraft doing glides in the circuit might have by way of hindrance to other traffic. My circuit would differ to the general circuit pattern executed by others which are fit for 737s; mine would have been rather tighter. Traffic was not an issue on the day as there were no other aircraft inbound or in the circuit (nor was there by the time I landed) and had his reasons for saying no been due to traffic consideration of course this would have been understandable and not an issue. I have done this many times before at the field with other Operators on duty.
In the end up I done my practice using a field rather than the runway but I feel this is not as beneficial as I can't get down too low and who am I to say whether or not I would have made it in? Do other pilots practice using suitable fields and if so how low do you go? I would always be wary of getting to meet the CAA on a bad day as a result of some nimby and thus do not generally do PFLs away from the aerodrome.
I know doing glide approaches onto a runway is different to landing in a field with no power but I think the virtue of the exercise lies in attempting to aim to land on a certain area of the runway while denying myself the use power would help in the event I have to aim for a piece of grass when all else goes quiet.
Your thoughts? How do you recommend one should practise glide approaches/PFLs without an instructor on board? Was the man in the tower correct in his assertion that I am not qualified to do these holding only a PPL?
Cheers,
R
I am wondering what you good folks think of the prospect of a fresh PPL holder carrying out PFLs by his/herself are? It was always my limit understanding that such practice is prudent at least and comes recommended by the relevant authorities from high untop. Is this correct?
The reason for my post is that I was prompted by an unforeseen break in the weather and with time on my hands and a plane on the ground I decided to go up for an hour or so and get some time in with stalls, ccts and some PFLs. My plan was to leave the area and do the stalls and steep turns and then go back into circuit for some glide approaches.
I duly went up to the tower (Air/Ground) to let them know the plan for my flight and that it was my intention to come back and do some glide approaches. I was then informed by the man with the clipboard that I was not 'qualified' to do this! Rather shocked that I had been breaking the law oft times before I asked him to explain and he went on to tell me that my licence (PPL) does not authorise me to attempt to land without power! Shirely this can't be correct? What is the difference in landing with or without power? He is, in my view, effectively telling me how to conduct my own flight. After all, the instructor from whom I hire the ac is more than happy with my exercise detail and has no reservations.
I should also make clear that I am fully aware of the implications an aircraft doing glides in the circuit might have by way of hindrance to other traffic. My circuit would differ to the general circuit pattern executed by others which are fit for 737s; mine would have been rather tighter. Traffic was not an issue on the day as there were no other aircraft inbound or in the circuit (nor was there by the time I landed) and had his reasons for saying no been due to traffic consideration of course this would have been understandable and not an issue. I have done this many times before at the field with other Operators on duty.
In the end up I done my practice using a field rather than the runway but I feel this is not as beneficial as I can't get down too low and who am I to say whether or not I would have made it in? Do other pilots practice using suitable fields and if so how low do you go? I would always be wary of getting to meet the CAA on a bad day as a result of some nimby and thus do not generally do PFLs away from the aerodrome.
I know doing glide approaches onto a runway is different to landing in a field with no power but I think the virtue of the exercise lies in attempting to aim to land on a certain area of the runway while denying myself the use power would help in the event I have to aim for a piece of grass when all else goes quiet.
Your thoughts? How do you recommend one should practise glide approaches/PFLs without an instructor on board? Was the man in the tower correct in his assertion that I am not qualified to do these holding only a PPL?
Cheers,
R
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite often when I come "home", I over fly the airfield at 2-3000' on some random heading and pull the power and see if I can glide it all the way in. It is good practice, and of course you are qualified if you have a PPL !
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While PFLs are useful onto a runway they are not representative of what you are likely to be landing onto ie a field, clearing etc.
In that respect the last couple of hundred feet to an actual touchdown is not as important as getting the portion from cruise to that point right.
At 200 feet you should know that your profile is correct for the touchdown point you want.
More important to me is the ability to have a mental picture of the winds and to be able to pick a suitable landing site from altitude.
Is the fielld level or running down hill sharply into a wood?
Is there livestock on the field? Are there powercables or obstructions? What is the surface like? If you get it wrong are there alternatives within 45 degrees left or right?
Flying glide approaches onto a runway while beneficial are only a fraction of the real challenge of a real forced landing.
The outcome involves so many other skills which involve choices as well as flying judgement and on top a certain amount of luck.
Pace
In that respect the last couple of hundred feet to an actual touchdown is not as important as getting the portion from cruise to that point right.
At 200 feet you should know that your profile is correct for the touchdown point you want.
More important to me is the ability to have a mental picture of the winds and to be able to pick a suitable landing site from altitude.
Is the fielld level or running down hill sharply into a wood?
Is there livestock on the field? Are there powercables or obstructions? What is the surface like? If you get it wrong are there alternatives within 45 degrees left or right?
Flying glide approaches onto a runway while beneficial are only a fraction of the real challenge of a real forced landing.
The outcome involves so many other skills which involve choices as well as flying judgement and on top a certain amount of luck.
Pace
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,096
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Was the man in the tower correct in his assertion that I am not qualified to do these holding only a PPL?
Otherwise, you are the pilot in command and free to choose your own landing technique! It is totally up to you wether you want to do steep or shallow, powered or idle approaches. At airfields with prescribed traffic patterns and/or special noise abatement procedures, you should of course respect those.
I can't help wondering what the tower person would reply if you asked what qualification you did need to be allowed. Glider? Instructor? Acrobacy?
Then again, seeing they perform an A/G service, are they qualified to say WHATEVER on your flying? I always understood A/G was there with the sole purpose of providing flight information?
Then again, seeing they perform an A/G service, are they qualified to say WHATEVER on your flying? I always understood A/G was there with the sole purpose of providing flight information?
The man with the clipboard was talking codswallop.
PFLs and stalls, different approaches - all should be practiced regularly, by all pilots - otherwise they'll still be trying to work out what to do when they screw up after a real problem.
You may have just given the man in the tower too much information - you are captain, and controllers have limited say in what you are allowed to do with your aeroplane. Just some of them aren't very good are recognising that.
Me? I try to practice a couple of stalls, at-least one PFL and at-least one different approach every month. I should probably practice EFATOs more often, but certainly practice those every few months also. PFLs I generally go-around from once I'm absolutely certain I'm okay for the field, which is typically somewhere between treetop and hedge height.
If you want to turn the engine off, that also is legal. Depending upon the aeroplane and runway, possibly stupid - but perfectly legal.
G
PFLs and stalls, different approaches - all should be practiced regularly, by all pilots - otherwise they'll still be trying to work out what to do when they screw up after a real problem.
You may have just given the man in the tower too much information - you are captain, and controllers have limited say in what you are allowed to do with your aeroplane. Just some of them aren't very good are recognising that.
Me? I try to practice a couple of stalls, at-least one PFL and at-least one different approach every month. I should probably practice EFATOs more often, but certainly practice those every few months also. PFLs I generally go-around from once I'm absolutely certain I'm okay for the field, which is typically somewhere between treetop and hedge height.
If you want to turn the engine off, that also is legal. Depending upon the aeroplane and runway, possibly stupid - but perfectly legal.
G
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air/Ground
Should have bugger all to say but clubs are different and seem to think they are Gods on what you do or dont do in their area.
Whether for some obscure club regulation? What I cannot think? But then some clubs have weird rules thrashed out by equally weird committees.
PFLs can be a nuisance to other circuit traffic! As going into the O/H and practising a forced landing means that morally everyone else doesnt want to mess up your perfect glide to a touchdown so tend to keep clear until you have completed your exercise.
I cannot see a problem when the circuit is deserted. They are beneficial but not as beneficial as doing them in the Wild as then you get the full Mcoy of all the aspects of a PFL rather than one so forget the circuit other than for touchdown practice and do them away from the airfield.
Pace
Should have bugger all to say but clubs are different and seem to think they are Gods on what you do or dont do in their area.
Whether for some obscure club regulation? What I cannot think? But then some clubs have weird rules thrashed out by equally weird committees.
PFLs can be a nuisance to other circuit traffic! As going into the O/H and practising a forced landing means that morally everyone else doesnt want to mess up your perfect glide to a touchdown so tend to keep clear until you have completed your exercise.
I cannot see a problem when the circuit is deserted. They are beneficial but not as beneficial as doing them in the Wild as then you get the full Mcoy of all the aspects of a PFL rather than one so forget the circuit other than for touchdown practice and do them away from the airfield.
Pace
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,096
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
...and do them away from the airfield.
Mind you, even as an instructor I am only allowed to descend below 500ft for a PFL if my student has no license yet. Once he has been issued his PPL, 500ft is the lowest I am allowed to let him descend. I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Germany you can be 100 percent certain that somebody will write down your registration and call the police. An instructor colleague of mine once made a PFL over a gliding site (not in use at the time) with a PPL holder during one of these JAR-FCL mandatory training flights and got prompty reported and fined for that...
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,096
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
@what next, rule 5 is 500' from, not necessarily above! There are lots of marshes etc where you cn continue below 500' legally.
And where exactly would that be? AFAIK, the UK has the same 500ft rule than the rest of the world. And with the license gone, the best practice in forced landings seems rather useless to me.
Mind you, even as an instructor I am only allowed to descend below 500ft for a PFL if my student has no license yet. Once he has been issued his PPL, 500ft is the lowest I am allowed to let him descend. I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Germany you can be 100 percent certain that somebody will write down your registration and call the police. An instructor colleague of mine once made a PFL over a gliding site (not in use at the time) with a PPL holder during one of these JAR-FCL mandatory training flights and got prompty reported and fined for that...
Mind you, even as an instructor I am only allowed to descend below 500ft for a PFL if my student has no license yet. Once he has been issued his PPL, 500ft is the lowest I am allowed to let him descend. I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Germany you can be 100 percent certain that somebody will write down your registration and call the police. An instructor colleague of mine once made a PFL over a gliding site (not in use at the time) with a PPL holder during one of these JAR-FCL mandatory training flights and got prompty reported and fined for that...
Fortunately, the UK is rather more sane and rational than this. The rule is 500ft minimum separation from any person, vessel, or manmade structure (rather than 500ft height, which would be incredibly restrictive). You can fly at 1ft, surrounded by hedges, over an empty beach, etc. and that is fine.
The military here work to I think 250ft, or 125ft in designated low flying areas.
It's really not hard to find plenty of space to practice 500ft msd PFLs.
G
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to throw a dampener on the proceedings, the proposed new pan European Rules of the Air, if enacted, (and EASA will probably ensure they are) will make it 500'agl for all, including the UK.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In NZ the restriction is not below 500ft, over built up area's it is 1000ft. Even if your are in the countryside you have to put a virtual cylinder around ALL structures 500ft wide and 500ft high... get your measuring tape out..... you are only allowed to proceed below this height with an instructor on board for the express purpose of practising FLWOP- remembering said rule about structures STILL apply.
Otherwise you have to head to the Low Flying Zones we have here,... and again only with an instructor. A mate of mine is being prosecuted by the CAA for this very thing.
Glide Approaches or simulated forced landings are TOTALLY fine on airfields, its good to practise, if I'm on my own i always do one... as long as of course ATC say ok, if you are uncontrolled make sure there is nobody else in the circuit, you may not be popular.
Chop the power halfway along the downwind leg and have a go.
Otherwise you have to head to the Low Flying Zones we have here,... and again only with an instructor. A mate of mine is being prosecuted by the CAA for this very thing.
Glide Approaches or simulated forced landings are TOTALLY fine on airfields, its good to practise, if I'm on my own i always do one... as long as of course ATC say ok, if you are uncontrolled make sure there is nobody else in the circuit, you may not be popular.
Chop the power halfway along the downwind leg and have a go.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Downwind
Age: 40
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ICAO Annex II 4.6
Correct me if I’m wrong but ICAO seem to say one cannot fly below 500'
The ANO (Section 5 (3) relevant sections are;
A bit embarrassing to ask (as I've just started Air Law for ATPL theory 
) but I assume the ANO overrides ICAO in UK airspace? Edit to add: Picked up a book and turns out yes it does. Well done me 
The exemption to the above (Section 6 aa Landing and taking off at a training aerodrome)
Does this mean a PFL and go-around can only be conducted below 500' if the exercise is being conducted at a training aerodrome (not necessarily a licensed one) and not below 500' elsewhere?
4.6 Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or
except by permission from the appropriate authority, a VFR
flight shall not be flown:
a) over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements
or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less
than 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle within
a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;
b) elsewhere than as specified in 4.6 a), at a height less
than 150 m (500 ft) above the ground or water.
except by permission from the appropriate authority, a VFR
flight shall not be flown:
a) over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements
or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less
than 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle within
a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;
b) elsewhere than as specified in 4.6 a), at a height less
than 150 m (500 ft) above the ground or water.
The ANO (Section 5 (3) relevant sections are;
(3) The low flying prohibitions are as follows:
(a) Failure of power unit
An aircraft shall not be flown below such height as would enable it to make an
emergency landing without causing danger to persons or property on the surface
in the event of a power unit failure.
(b) The 500 feet rule
Except with the written permission of the CAA, an aircraft shall not be flown
closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.
(c) The 1,000 feet rule
Except with the written permission of the CAA, an aircraft flying over a congested
area of a city town or settlement shall not fly below a height of 1,000 feet above
the highest fixed obstacle within a horizontal radius of 600 metres of the aircraft.
(d) The land clear rule
An aircraft flying over a congested area of a city, town or settlement shall not fly
below such height as would permit the aircraft to land clear of the congested area
in the event of a power unit failure.
(a) Failure of power unit
An aircraft shall not be flown below such height as would enable it to make an
emergency landing without causing danger to persons or property on the surface
in the event of a power unit failure.
(b) The 500 feet rule
Except with the written permission of the CAA, an aircraft shall not be flown
closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.
(c) The 1,000 feet rule
Except with the written permission of the CAA, an aircraft flying over a congested
area of a city town or settlement shall not fly below a height of 1,000 feet above
the highest fixed obstacle within a horizontal radius of 600 metres of the aircraft.
(d) The land clear rule
An aircraft flying over a congested area of a city, town or settlement shall not fly
below such height as would permit the aircraft to land clear of the congested area
in the event of a power unit failure.
) but I assume the ANO overrides ICAO in UK airspace? Edit to add: Picked up a book and turns out yes it does. Well done me The exemption to the above (Section 6 aa Landing and taking off at a training aerodrome)
(iii) An aeroplane or helicopter or gyroplane flies in the circumstances specified
in this sub-paragraph if:
(aa) it is flying for the purpose of taking off from, landing at or practising
approaches to landing at a training aerodrome;
in this sub-paragraph if:
(aa) it is flying for the purpose of taking off from, landing at or practising
approaches to landing at a training aerodrome;
Last edited by Ryan5252; 21st Feb 2011 at 19:33.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hove
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryan5252,
The CAA are perfectly happy for us to practice PFLs below 500' agl so long as we make the effort to stay 500' away from people, vessels, vehicles & structures.
FlyingKiwi-73
Now that's just cheating! The biggest problem with glide approaches is setting yourself up to start the circuit from the right height & position. Doing it by the numbers from mid-downwind is too easy.
Stooge around in the vicinity of a friendly A/G airfield at 2-3,000' & when it's nice & quiet, cut the power & set up your glide approach from a more realistic height & from a random position.
The CAA are perfectly happy for us to practice PFLs below 500' agl so long as we make the effort to stay 500' away from people, vessels, vehicles & structures.
FlyingKiwi-73
Chop the power halfway along the downwind leg and have a go.
Stooge around in the vicinity of a friendly A/G airfield at 2-3,000' & when it's nice & quiet, cut the power & set up your glide approach from a more realistic height & from a random position.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Downwind
Age: 40
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The CAA are perfectly happy for us to practice PFLs below 500' agl so long as we make the effort to stay 500' away from people, vessels, vehicles & structures.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You could fly over the most deserted area in the world and not be sure your not going to fly over some research scientist? There has to be an element of knowing intent? Ie fly over a farm and there is a reasonable chance someone maybe lurking below.
You could always say you had a bad case of carb ice ?
( rules are for fools to follow and wise men to question)
Ie be sensible and do it anyway .
Pace
You could always say you had a bad case of carb ice ?
( rules are for fools to follow and wise men to question)
Ie be sensible and do it anyway .
Pace