FireDragon

This is something I'm curious about.

I'm due to do mine in the new year, and, until recently, have had a break from flying.

I'm a bit worried about possibly getting lost, etc.. and thinking of this gave rise to my question: Is it possible you can muck up your Xcountry to the extent you have to do it again?

Cheers FireDragon

poetpilot

well yes, if you dont/cant complete it <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Seriously, I witnessed a rather unfortunate end to some hapless student's x-country second leg many years back. He was from Liverpool, not sure where he'd landed first, but he was supposed to land at Barton next. He didnt touch down till 2/3rds down rwy 27 and ended up in the hedge of the western boundary. So he completed his x-country by bus, one presumes, thereby failing to get the requisite signature for landing back at Liverpool. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

But, dont let that put you off. And whatever happens, it will be a learning experience (e.g. if you have to turn back because of weather or whatever.

If it's the same as when I did mine, at each place you stop at, you get the ATC dignatory's autograph to say you landed and displayed appropriate airmanship. Due allowance tends to be given for the fact that you're a student away from home alone for the first time.

Your instructor will have the experience and judgement to know that you can cope, so please don't worry unnecessarily. Just choose places with nice long runways <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: poetpilot ]</p>

sunnysideup

Don't panic too much - but you can hit problems.

As long as you arrive at the other end in one piece getting lost for a while doesn't really matter - even if you use 121.5 for a fix and track/distance nobody will mind - in fact, its a sign of blooody good airmanship.

During my QXC, I got Brize to vector me around all of the restricted areas, purple airspace and busy fields for a good 45 mins after I got a little "unsure of position"!!!!

The important thing is getting you slip signed at the two away landings. If you do something dangerous in the circuit or on the ground, they may not sign it and that, quite rightly, is a failure!!

If this year is anything to go by, you will probably make several attempts to get it done only too be let down by weather before departure or en route. So don't be anxious to get it all done now!!!

Thats my twopennyworth - hope it helps - the elation you feel when you've done it is the highest high in aviation after your first solo.

bamboo

God, funny this thread is here now.

Well, finally got mine done, and guess what, I've been told I've failed, and have to do it again.

Got to the necessary places, and landed, but on the way accidentally went into controlled airspace. Also, at my second destination, was told I'd shown poor airmanship.

That's what went down on the form - landing - good, airmanship - poor.

That one word appears to seal my fate. I am completely gutted, to be told I've got to do it again.

Can anyone shed some light on this? - I wasn't even aware that you COULD fail, provided you landed at the correct airports, and got back in one piece

Thanks - b

Noggin

You cannot fail, because it is not a test! If you break the law by entering controlled airspace, or display poor airmanship, you are quite clearly in need of further training before anyone will give you a licence. It follows, that an unsatisfactory cross country should be repeated or you may not pass the navigation section of the Skill Test. I have failed 5 candidates on Nav in the past year, in each case, it was because they had not be taught to navigate properly.

bamboo

Noggin

I don't want to 'hijack' the thread, but when you say "you cannot fail, it's not a test", does that mean that I HAVE to do mine again? or, if as you say, navigation was at fault, why can't I just do a few more navigation practices? (I did a few prior to the Xcountry, and got on ok).

I know I made mistakes, but at the end of the day, I obtained the objective:- to land at desired airfields, and get back, without killing anybody!

Is it a CAA requirement to have to do it again, or is it up to the individual school?

Your reply would be very much appreciated

b

ps Firedragon, I understand your worries!

Bluebeard

Agree with all of the points above, however although the qualifying XC is not a test as such you need to have the form completed with 'Satisfactory' as a minimum across the board.

ATC are quite wthin their rights to mark your landing or airmanship down as 'Unsatisfactory', if this happens you are looking at repeating the XC.

DVR6K

Well, I had to send off my QXC form with all the signatures on it when I applied for my licence. So, presumably, you have to crack all 3 legs so you have got all the signatures to send off to the CAA.

I went to Norwich as part of my QXC and they couldn´t give a crap. I don´t even think they noticed me to be honest. After a greaser and correct procedures all the way through, I got a couple of "satisfactory"s. Cheers guys. Nothing personal or anything.

matspart3

As a controller, this can sometimes be difficult to assess. I've signed one as unsatisfactory for airmanship when safety was genuinely compromised but I've had a few who, in my humble opinion, have scraped through. There are no official guidelines for Controllers as to what 'satisfactory' airmanship is but we seem to get an awful lot of people who get lost, join for the wrong runway/circuit direction or use abysmally poor RT. I'd estimate having spoken to maybe a dozen students this year who have cocked something up on the QXC, but in most cases, I've been able to point out the error of their ways in a constructive and friendly manner and after consultation with their instructor signed their forms. I suppose this could indicate that some students are being 'let loose' without adequate training and I'm often surprised by the weather conditions that some qualifiers are sent off in. There does also seem to be some 'mystical' air about the QXC and lots of people seem to get uneccesarily worked up about something they should be capable of achieving without substantial difficulty at that stage of their training. Relax, enjoy it!

DVR6K

I enjoyed every second of my QXC. Except for parts of my journey into E Anglia.

QXCs are there for you to mess up though aren´t they? That´s the way to learn about nav and flight planning, landing away etc. Could I find Fenland???? Could I heck, Wattisham (or whoever) radar could see it but I was buzzing around with a dodgy ADF relying on my stopwatch!

I made everyone en route well aware of my QXC activities and they were generally very sympathetic and understanding, top stuff.

Whipping Boy's SATCO

bamboo, whilst I sympathise with your 'failure' the whole point is that you did not prove your competence on your X-country flight. Unauthorsied penetration of CAS (whether intentional or not) is serious business; one could question the nature of the route that your instructor authorised. Don't get bitter but take on-board the necessary lessons and, in the long run, you will become a far better aviator. I have been involved in aviation for over 20 years and one of the first lessons I was learnt was that you never stopped learning. I echo the sentiments of matspart3; enjoy it!

Red Four

Interesting thread - I would like to know how A/G radio operators & AFISOs, are allowed by the CAA to sign off these forms. Yes, many have a wealth of aviation experience and may recognise poor airmanship, but for these people to have a possibly catastrophic affect on some wannabes career, shouldnt they have some formal professional qualification.
Perhaps what I am suggesting is that QXC flights should only be between units equipped with full ATC, where at least the people who sign the form have professional accountability for their verdict?

Genghis the Engineer

Oh course you can fail. I did.

In my case, I ballsed up my nav on the way back, spotted another airfield, did a non-radio join and landing, and phoned my instructor. He was very sympathetic, but very politely explained that he thought I should do another dual X-country before trying again.

Did my flying a lot of good in the long run, but rather embarrasing at the time.

G

BEagle

If as my chum Noggin suggests, an 'unsatisactory' 150nm has not been repeated following further training, as an Examiner I would not consider that all training requirements had been properly completed prior to the Skill Test and I would not test the 'applicant'.

Some years ago I was flying a dual navex which included a join, circuit and departure at Wellesbourne. We could hardly get a word in edgewise due to the very helpful A/G operator trying to assist an obviously hopelesly lost pilot from S*******n on his qualifying cross-country. When I got back I rang the club at S*******n to advise them that whoever it was who was blundering around was clearly not ready for such a test and had been a hazard to himself and everyone else. Their reply? "Well - just so long as he gets his signatures on the form"......

I too have failed 'applicants' (rarely, fortunately) who simply haven't been taught to navigate properly, relying on map reading and track crawling to get them through to their turning points. That and/or PFLWOPs are the most common fail item on the PPL Skill Test; navigation isn't difficult - it just requires a methodical and disciplined approach and the ability to tell ones ar$e from one's elbows!

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

Mister Gash

I knew a bloke who, on the final leg of his xcty, busted a prohibited zone, was intercepted by the military and then burst two tyres on the C150 on landing and was surrounded by the full airport fire crew. He never flew again.

BeauMan

Hurrah for BEagle and Genghis the Engineer! As I was reading down this thread I was starting to get a bit concerned that the general concensus was that your main objective on a cross country should be to get the right signatures in the right places on the form!

My view is, was, and always will be that we should always commit aviation SAFELY. If getting your personal skills to a safe level can be achieved without failing at any stage, then all well and good. However, this isn't an ideal world, and we all make mistakes at some point in our flying lives. The trick is in recognising that we are fallible, and then doing somethinbg about it, in order to become better, SAFER pilots.

I'm sure we all strive to improve, and I'm also sure that everyone on here who has any degree of experience, be it me with my paltry 70 hours or someone else with 10,000 hours over many years, would all endorse that. Let's face it, any pilot who DOESN'T try to improve their airmanship skills quite frankly shouldn't be up there at all.

So to go back to the original question, yes, you can fail a cross country. And that's the way it should be. Compromising on personal standards compromises on safety. And THAT can kill.

Right, rant over. Climbing back down from soapbox. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

brisl

In response to the original post - you can end up doing your QXC again even if you don't "muck it up".

After two legs of my QXC a phone call home revealed that the crosswind had blown up to something which, while just within the aircraft limits, I wasn't very comfortable with.

After a thoughtful cuppa, I abandoned the attempt and an instructor was despatched to accompany me home. As it happened, I coped with the crosswind landing just fine, which made the episode even more irritating and embarrasing.

Re-doing the QXC wasn't a problem, I needed the solo time anyway. Also, over the next few days, *every* instructor at the club took the trouble to tell me they thought I'd made a sensible/safe decision, which made me feel a lot better about the whole episode.

bcfc

Bloke at our club did his QXC with a marginal TAF for the end of the day. Set off first thing but stayed so long at his intermediate stops (1.5 hrs), he had to spend the night at Bournemouth. Got back next morning with it all signed off but a big question mark over whether it still counted as it wan't all done in a day. Never did find out as he moved clubs.

FireDragon

Many thanks for all your replies to this question. Well, looks like I'll have to get the practise in - don't want to be doing anything that would result in a refusal to sign to paper!

FD

Whirlybird

Look, I know everyone desperately wants to get their licence, but look at it this way. What are you going to be doing when you get your PPL? Answer - going flying. What are you doing on a QCX? Answer - going flying. So does it really matter that much if you have to do it again?