Flying "N" reg in the Channel Islands on a JAA licence
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Flying "N" reg in the Channel Islands on a JAA licence
I have been speaking to the Belgrano this morning but it appears that they are short staffed and could not give me a answer.
I am trying to clarify that it is possible to fly an "N" registered aircraft in the UK including the Channel Islands using a UK issued JAA PPL.
I have had a look in LASORS but haven't found any reference yet.
Can anyone help please.
I am trying to clarify that it is possible to fly an "N" registered aircraft in the UK including the Channel Islands using a UK issued JAA PPL.
I have had a look in LASORS but haven't found any reference yet.
Can anyone help please.
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No you can't. It is the FAA which governs who can fly an N reg aeroplane, and it was recently clarified that Europe is NOT considered one entity as far as licensing goes. You need an FAA Certificate.
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N reg in UK airspace
Thanks englishal but I am only interested in whether the CI's count as UK airspace with regards to licence priviledges. Not other European countries.
IE Is it ok to fly between the CI's and the UK in an "N" reg with a UK JAA PPL ?
IE Is it ok to fly between the CI's and the UK in an "N" reg with a UK JAA PPL ?
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There are various sections of the ANO that define privileges or restrictions with regard to a geographic area of , The United Kingdom, Channel Islands, and Isle of Man. In addition, I am 99% sure that the CI issued licences and medicals are effectively UK JAA issued. This would tend to confirm that there is a single overarching regulator. As such, it would be remarkably unlikely for the US to take a view that a UK JAA PPL is not issued by the 'country' relevant to the Channel Islands (which must reasonably be the UK)
The CI is not part of the JAA but has elected to use licences issued by the UK CAA. Therefore; there is no difference between the State of Issue of your UK issued licence and one held by a CI resident. On that basis, you are OK as far as the FAA is concerned, to fly N Reg in the CI. The Belgrano won't have a clue about FAA legislation even if there was someone there.
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N reg in UK airspace
Thanks folks.
I have now received confirmation from the head of ATC in the Channel Islands that it is OK to fly to and from the UK and CI's in an "N" reg a/c using a JAA issued PPL.
Someone has been trying to tell me that it was only possible up to the 12 mile limit from the UK and any of the CI's which appears to be nonsense.
I have now received confirmation from the head of ATC in the Channel Islands that it is OK to fly to and from the UK and CI's in an "N" reg a/c using a JAA issued PPL.
Someone has been trying to tell me that it was only possible up to the 12 mile limit from the UK and any of the CI's which appears to be nonsense.
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Yes, you / they are correct.
That someone has confused themselves with the ANOs reference to territorial waters and ignored the "and by international agreement part" and possibly cross refrenced all this to the IMC rating.
N reg on a CAA license is good for the CI's, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
With consent it maybe good elsewhere.
That someone has confused themselves with the ANOs reference to territorial waters and ignored the "and by international agreement part" and possibly cross refrenced all this to the IMC rating.
N reg on a CAA license is good for the CI's, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.With consent it maybe good elsewhere.
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This 12 mile limit bit has come up before somewhere... I cannot believe it is anything other than total bollox. The 12 miles is something else.
Otherwise, you could do all kinds of crazy things... buzzing boats at 100ft, 13nm offshore. Somehow I think that if you did that, some people would get quite excited
Otherwise, you could do all kinds of crazy things... buzzing boats at 100ft, 13nm offshore. Somehow I think that if you did that, some people would get quite excited
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The CAA have no responsibility over what happens in Jersey so would not be able to answer your question.
Article 26 of the Air Naviagtion Order 2005 as applied to Jersey by The Air Navigation (Jersey) Order 2008 states that "A person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft unless he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid by the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator and satisfying the minimum standards established under Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention."
Therefore you should have a FAA licence to fly an N reg in Jersey airspace unless the Director of Civil Aviation has issued an exemption to the requirements of article 26. The reference to "the State of the operator" refers only to aircraft operated under Artricle 83 bis agreements.
Article 26 of the Air Naviagtion Order 2005 as applied to Jersey by The Air Navigation (Jersey) Order 2008 states that "A person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft unless he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid by the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator and satisfying the minimum standards established under Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention."
Therefore you should have a FAA licence to fly an N reg in Jersey airspace unless the Director of Civil Aviation has issued an exemption to the requirements of article 26. The reference to "the State of the operator" refers only to aircraft operated under Artricle 83 bis agreements.
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Cathar is correct the UK ANO does not apply in the CICTR so should not be referenced and you should check the Jersey (and where relevant the Guernsey) ANO. Even though the majority of the ANO is lifted from the UK there are differences, some of which are quite important. It is best to check with the DCA as he is responsible for the entire Channel Islands as opposed to Jersey ATC who are responsible for the CICTR and Guernsey ATC who have responsibility for Guernsey and Alderney and again differ from Jersey in some areas.
mm_flynn
There is no such thing as a Channel Island issued licence or medical, most PPL's have JAA licences issued by the UK CAA and there are local AME's who issue medicals on behalf of the CAA and FAA where required.
mm_flynn
There is no such thing as a Channel Island issued licence or medical, most PPL's have JAA licences issued by the UK CAA and there are local AME's who issue medicals on behalf of the CAA and FAA where required.
Article 26 of the Air Naviagtion Order 2005
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Cathar is correct the UK ANO does not apply in the CICTR so should not be referenced and you should check the Jersey (and where relevant the Guernsey) ANO....
mm_flynn
There is no such thing as a Channel Island issued licence or medical, most PPL's have JAA licences issued by the UK CAA and there are local AME's who issue medicals on behalf of the CAA and FAA where required.
mm_flynn
There is no such thing as a Channel Island issued licence or medical, most PPL's have JAA licences issued by the UK CAA and there are local AME's who issue medicals on behalf of the CAA and FAA where required.
The general structure of the UK ANO, which stretches its authority in a number of areas to cover the IOM and CI, would suggest the CI is not really a separate country and as such a UK licence (which is what one gets if one passes ones test in the CI) is the licence issued by the country of operation (i.e. the CI). The FAA considers as valid for operations a licence issued by the country of operation, which should tick th box in the quoted CI regs (assuming the CI are part of the country of the UK from the perspective of licence issue)
The opinion of the UK and CI regulators is not technically relevant as the licence requirements of an N-reg are defined solely by the US. However, the US will in all likelihood only prosecute at the request of the CI/UK authorities. As such, if the UK/CI are happy, you are from a practical perspective good to go, even if technically the operation would be illegal under US law (as you have no real chance of being prosecuted)
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I was fairly sure that was true. It puts one in a slightly odd position that the Channel Islands are not (I think) a Contracting State and they don't issue licences, but they do issue regulations. As such, it is not that clear what Country (as defined by the FAA) the CI are and if they are not the UK, then the CI is a country which does not issue licences and hence N-Reg operation is only legal with an FAA rating.
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Which of course is a question for the insurer, rather than any regulator.
However, it would also be surprising for the insurer to care in this instance, as a the status of the Crown dependencies is unclear in this particular respect and the pattern of behaviour affirms that a UK licence is 'the licence of the Country' with respect to operations in the Channel Islands.
OA32 - you are of course correct that my shorthand reference to the CI's as legal entities is not technically correct. However, the powers of the Crown Dependencies to act internationally seems quite limited and almost wholly assumed by the UK (with some approval processes). As such, the FAA likely regards them as dependencies operating under the overarching control of the UK with regard to international obligations.
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I agree, but getting insurers to rule on something is like pulling teeth.
I have tried it many times.
They just say "you have to comply with the regs, etc".
The most charitable explanation for this behaviour (incidentally mirrored by my house insurer) is that they are reluctant to spend money on lawyers, in getting the answers.
Half the job, IMHO, IANAL, is that making a full disclosure of the intended operation to the insurer gives you some protection (from them walking off a claim). I bet there is a ton of case law on this though... it must come up all the time.
I have tried it many times.
They just say "you have to comply with the regs, etc".
The most charitable explanation for this behaviour (incidentally mirrored by my house insurer) is that they are reluctant to spend money on lawyers, in getting the answers.
Half the job, IMHO, IANAL, is that making a full disclosure of the intended operation to the insurer gives you some protection (from them walking off a claim). I bet there is a ton of case law on this though... it must come up all the time.
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N reg in UK airspace
I have now spoken with the CAA and they have confirmed that the CI's are part of UK airspace and that they are quite happy for me to use my JAA licence to fly an "N" reg a/c in that airspace.
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gyro,
while I am sure you are fine to fly to the CI, asking the CAA is only half the story on these matters. Because it is an N reg, the FAA is the other half of the story and although the CIs can be considered British for all the reasons given in this post (and so you are ok), you could equally ask the same question of the French. They of course would probably say "that is fine" but in reality the FAA would say "that is not fine". If the FAA said it wasn't ok (which they do incidentally) then insurance would be null and void and N reg pilots in Europe could be flying illegally.
I just thought I'd point this out in case any other N reg pilots are reading this and assume it would be ok to fly abroard in an N reg on a JAA license issued in the UK.
while I am sure you are fine to fly to the CI, asking the CAA is only half the story on these matters. Because it is an N reg, the FAA is the other half of the story and although the CIs can be considered British for all the reasons given in this post (and so you are ok), you could equally ask the same question of the French. They of course would probably say "that is fine" but in reality the FAA would say "that is not fine". If the FAA said it wasn't ok (which they do incidentally) then insurance would be null and void and N reg pilots in Europe could be flying illegally.
I just thought I'd point this out in case any other N reg pilots are reading this and assume it would be ok to fly abroard in an N reg on a JAA license issued in the UK.
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gyro,
... Because it is an N reg, the FAA is the other half of the story and although the CIs can be considered British for all the reasons given in this post (and so you are ok), you could equally ask the same question of the French. They of course would probably say "that is fine" but in reality the FAA would say "that is not fine". If the FAA said it wasn't ok (which they do incidentally) then insurance would be null and void and N reg pilots in Europe could be flying illegally.
I just thought I'd point this out in case any other N reg pilots are reading this and assume it would be ok to fly abroard in an N reg on a JAA license issued in the UK.
... Because it is an N reg, the FAA is the other half of the story and although the CIs can be considered British for all the reasons given in this post (and so you are ok), you could equally ask the same question of the French. They of course would probably say "that is fine" but in reality the FAA would say "that is not fine". If the FAA said it wasn't ok (which they do incidentally) then insurance would be null and void and N reg pilots in Europe could be flying illegally.
I just thought I'd point this out in case any other N reg pilots are reading this and assume it would be ok to fly abroard in an N reg on a JAA license issued in the UK.
The FAA are probably more than the other half, in that they establish what is legal in an N-reg (but not necessarily what is illegal).
It is reasonably clear from some recent FAA opinions that a UK licence is not valid for flying an N-Reg in France (or anywhere other than the UK - and Crown Dependencies are from a practical perspective the UK in this context). that means it is definitely against US law to operate N-reg in France on a UK licence.
However, a UK insurer is not in anyway bound by the US view of what is legal or not. To the extent the State in which the flight occurs thinks something is OK, it would be surprising if the insurer took a different view, or the FAA choose to take enforcement action (despite it being against US law).
(I personally wouldn't take chances and would make sure I was legal in the eyes of the state of registry and the state of operation and I would also check with my insurer if there was any ambiguity).
