Tail dragger 'experience'
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Fascinating stuff chaps..
I was fortunate enough to do some training with a chap in Arizona who taught me how to do 'wheel' landings. I too thought that it would not be possible to make wheel landings shorter than three pointers but I was proven wrong. However, it does take a lot of experience to brake hard with the tail still in air. I found it completely contrary to my instinct having all my life flown nose-wheel aircraft; that is, pull back rather than push forward . I was shown how to control the height with the use of power and by holding the same attitude make several touch and goes by increasing and decreasing the power. You also need to be a bit more adaptive with your feet both for keeping the aircraft straight as well as the amount of braking.
Having said this, I still feel more comfortable doing 3 pointers and just need to practice wheelers a bit more, something I wasn't shown or demonstrated on my tail wheel conversion.
There are many articles showing how missionary pilots land using the wheeler technique. There must be a reason why they do this!
I was fortunate enough to do some training with a chap in Arizona who taught me how to do 'wheel' landings. I too thought that it would not be possible to make wheel landings shorter than three pointers but I was proven wrong. However, it does take a lot of experience to brake hard with the tail still in air. I found it completely contrary to my instinct having all my life flown nose-wheel aircraft; that is, pull back rather than push forward . I was shown how to control the height with the use of power and by holding the same attitude make several touch and goes by increasing and decreasing the power. You also need to be a bit more adaptive with your feet both for keeping the aircraft straight as well as the amount of braking.
Having said this, I still feel more comfortable doing 3 pointers and just need to practice wheelers a bit more, something I wasn't shown or demonstrated on my tail wheel conversion.
There are many articles showing how missionary pilots land using the wheeler technique. There must be a reason why they do this!
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Short (wet?) grass strip - Back of the drag curve, three point attitude and chop the throttle just as you stall on was the only way I could get G-AWHY (Falconar F11) onto my strip. Maybe on a firm surface a wheeler might have worked and I guess it would give more chance of a go around if things went pear shaped (though heavy braking in that particular aeroplane would probably have caused a swing due to it having not the best set up brakes).
So I still say circumstances and type are everthing when it comes to short landings!
SS
So I still say circumstances and type are everthing when it comes to short landings!
SS
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Here's how it should be done
Cessna 185 Short Landing
Dan Dare - how about tail skid; sounds better than tail drraaaggggerrr!
Cessna 185 Short Landing
Dan Dare - how about tail skid; sounds better than tail drraaaggggerrr!
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Most tail wheel airplanes I have flown can be landed shorter using the wheel landing technique than three pointing them.
I flew a DH Hornet Moth for 8 years and I found the Wheeler to be quite difficult to get right in this A/C. I have never taught anyone to land a tailwheel A/C but I don't believe that you could land this old gal shorter by Wheeling it on, than I could by three pointing it. I'm afraid that I have to go with Hugh FD on this one and I have to say that I think that you're giving us a bit of a whopper there
Unfortunately I don't have this lovely aeroplane anymore, but if I did, I'd challenge you to prove me wrong and if you managed it, I'd buy you a bucket of beer
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YouTube - Super Cub Super STOL Short Field Landing
Even better
I can live with taildragger, I hate the use of nose dragger .How CAN you drag a nose wheel unless you're going backwards?
Even better
I can live with taildragger, I hate the use of nose dragger .How CAN you drag a nose wheel unless you're going backwards?
I think it is pointless to make blanket statements about three point vs wheel landings. Some aircraft you never 3 point (Beech 18) others you never wheel land (Helio Courrier) and if the field is so short the type of landing is going to make a difference than if you are not a professional bush pilot, you should not be going into there in the first place.
Which technique should be used for any given landing depends on the type of aircraft and the conditions. A proper tailwheel conversion course should teach both but new tailwheel pilots need to build their experience in gentle conditions before trying the fancy flying. After I sign my students out
I tell them to go do about 10 hrs of practice on nice days and them come back for round two were we go out on the snotty days and and into some more demanding fields.
Which technique should be used for any given landing depends on the type of aircraft and the conditions. A proper tailwheel conversion course should teach both but new tailwheel pilots need to build their experience in gentle conditions before trying the fancy flying. After I sign my students out
I tell them to go do about 10 hrs of practice on nice days and them come back for round two were we go out on the snotty days and and into some more demanding fields.
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Bigglesthefrog, good morning.
I have never flown a Hornet Moth but looking at its profile I see no reason why it could not be wheel landed.
I did get to fly a Tiger Moth during my time in England and found it to be a real easy airplane to fly. ( I think it was at Rush Green. )
The wheel landing saves space when landing as it is easier to judge the touch down point than it is performing a three point landing thus avoiding the floating period when performing a full stall three point landing.
Remember I have not said there are no airplanes that can't be wheel landed.
The Pitts S2B is a bit of a challenge to wheel land due to the difficulty in seeing the runway....but it can be wheel landed.
I have never flown a Hornet Moth but looking at its profile I see no reason why it could not be wheel landed.
I did get to fly a Tiger Moth during my time in England and found it to be a real easy airplane to fly. ( I think it was at Rush Green. )
The wheel landing saves space when landing as it is easier to judge the touch down point than it is performing a three point landing thus avoiding the floating period when performing a full stall three point landing.
Remember I have not said there are no airplanes that can't be wheel landed.
The Pitts S2B is a bit of a challenge to wheel land due to the difficulty in seeing the runway....but it can be wheel landed.
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big pistons -- yes, airwork for familiarization is necessary of course, the more so if the aircraft type is very different frm any flown before. What I meant is that the bulk of the time needed (presuming that you know how to handle the plane in the air, recognise and respond to stalls, etc.) is going to be spent learning to handle the plane on the ground, and practising take-offs and landings.
It never ceases to amaze me how much time some people need. Doing my PPL on a tailwheel aircraft may have been the single most trouble-saving decision of my flying life, in that I've never had any problem learning to land a new type of plane. The same basic principles are sound for any type, perhaps it's just that with a tailwheel trainer you can't mistake a wheelbarrow for a proper landing.
It never ceases to amaze me how much time some people need. Doing my PPL on a tailwheel aircraft may have been the single most trouble-saving decision of my flying life, in that I've never had any problem learning to land a new type of plane. The same basic principles are sound for any type, perhaps it's just that with a tailwheel trainer you can't mistake a wheelbarrow for a proper landing.
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Kinda funny that anyone could easily package tailwheel flying into a nice little "package" and that you come out x hours later able to fly a tailwheel airplane. I'd regularly fly with certain pilots with lots of tailwheel time and give them a new tailwheel airplane or tricky oddball landing and it always convinces you that tailwheel skills are acrued with the benefit of lots of time....when you see guys who really should know overcook it. Its not just a few saturday jollies and a logbook entry. There is a great deal of difference between all the flavours of tailwheel airplanes, and a great number of techniques need to be kept up the sleve for each different occaision. The fun is in learning them all in theory and hopefully not bending anything in the application.
The book stick and rudder is invaluable in section on landing to assist the tyro tailwheel man. It clearly makes the case for wheel landings, in a slightly more longwinded way than the big rocks long props guys demonstrate. Its great that we have guys with that skill level we can all learn from.
Irish
The book stick and rudder is invaluable in section on landing to assist the tyro tailwheel man. It clearly makes the case for wheel landings, in a slightly more longwinded way than the big rocks long props guys demonstrate. Its great that we have guys with that skill level we can all learn from.
Irish
big pistons -- yes, airwork for familiarization is necessary of course, the more so if the aircraft type is very different frm any flown before. What I meant is that the bulk of the time needed (presuming that you know how to handle the plane in the air, recognise and respond to stalls, etc.) is going to be spent learning to handle the plane on the ground, and practising take-offs and landings.
It never ceases to amaze me how much time some people need. Doing my PPL on a tailwheel aircraft may have been the single most trouble-saving decision of my flying life, in that I've never had any problem learning to land a new type of plane. The same basic principles are sound for any type, perhaps it's just that with a tailwheel trainer you can't mistake a wheelbarrow for a proper landing.
It never ceases to amaze me how much time some people need. Doing my PPL on a tailwheel aircraft may have been the single most trouble-saving decision of my flying life, in that I've never had any problem learning to land a new type of plane. The same basic principles are sound for any type, perhaps it's just that with a tailwheel trainer you can't mistake a wheelbarrow for a proper landing.
. Since in Canada at least, almost nobody rents tailwheel aircraft for initial training it is now pretty rare to do a PPL on a tailwheel aircraft. I have done 2 PPL's on a Cessna 140 (both owned by the student) and other than taking a bit longer to solo they completed their training in the usual time but had significantly better hands and feet than your average PPL One of the hazards of upgrade training is to presume skills that do not exist. The farther away the insrtructor is from ab inito training the harder it is to remember that what to the instructor is automatic and unconsious skills may not be robust enough in the student
Every pilot I have done a tailwheel conversion for. has had weaknesses in one or more of the fundamental skills, poor use of the rudder, poor attitude control on final resulting in the nose nodding up and down, and not keeping the aircraft in trim are the three most common. Therefore I am a big believer in reviewing the essential Ex 5 to 12 skills in the practice area before getting to the ciruit, it is money well spent in my experience
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Good morning Chuck
The Hornet Moth looks, and is a lovely aeroplane, but she is very heavy in the tail, especially if you compare it to a Tiger Moth which is a stable companion of the Hornet. It takes two people to pick up the Hornet's tail, but one guy can easily pick up the Tiger's tail and walk away with it. So Wheeling the Hornet Moth onto the runway means you need a bit of speed to pin it down tail up. This is all extra speed that has to be scrubbed off before it comes to a stop, therefore eating up more runway. If in ones keeness to get her down she is wheeled on a bit too hard the inertia will drop the heavy tail, increase the angle of attack and she's airborne again
I have wheelered her on to tarmac quite successfully, but I've never ever done it anywhere near as short as even a bad three pointer.
The Hornet Moth looks, and is a lovely aeroplane, but she is very heavy in the tail, especially if you compare it to a Tiger Moth which is a stable companion of the Hornet. It takes two people to pick up the Hornet's tail, but one guy can easily pick up the Tiger's tail and walk away with it. So Wheeling the Hornet Moth onto the runway means you need a bit of speed to pin it down tail up. This is all extra speed that has to be scrubbed off before it comes to a stop, therefore eating up more runway. If in ones keeness to get her down she is wheeled on a bit too hard the inertia will drop the heavy tail, increase the angle of attack and she's airborne again
I have wheelered her on to tarmac quite successfully, but I've never ever done it anywhere near as short as even a bad three pointer.
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Congratulations on getting your PPL on a "real" airplane 
.
.
Yes, I was lucky that there was a place with Rollason Condors, which had a lovely narrow envelope that teaches you to keep on your toes. It's a pity that such places have disappeared alongside the oldfashioned stick-and-rudder instructors that were around in the seventies. Now you have a chance of being tought basic skills by an instructor who spent his entire flying career so far on (***) (very fault-forgiving) airplanes
!!! In fact, I wrote an article in the Flight Safety Bulletin years ago voicing my concern about this fact and urging GASCo to look into the relationship between this and accident statistics.
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Having seen abysmal standards in the most basic skills of some people, I am inclined to believe that everyone should learn to fly on a tailwheel trainer to avoid bad habits that make for poor skills in any but the most benign kind of plane.
Yes, I was lucky that there was a place with Rollason Condors, which had a lovely narrow envelope that teaches you to keep on your toes. It's a pity that such places have disappeared alongside the oldfashioned stick-and-rudder instructors that were around in the seventies. Now you have a chance of being tought basic skills by an instructor who spent his entire flying career so far on (***) (very fault-forgiving) airplanes !!! In fact, I wrote an article in the Flight Safety Bulletin years ago voicing my concern about this fact and urging GASCo to look into the relationship between this and accident statistics.
Yes, I was lucky that there was a place with Rollason Condors, which had a lovely narrow envelope that teaches you to keep on your toes. It's a pity that such places have disappeared alongside the oldfashioned stick-and-rudder instructors that were around in the seventies. Now you have a chance of being tought basic skills by an instructor who spent his entire flying career so far on (***) (very fault-forgiving) airplanes !!! In fact, I wrote an article in the Flight Safety Bulletin years ago voicing my concern about this fact and urging GASCo to look into the relationship between this and accident statistics.
SS
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I hesitate to argue with Bose but you can wheel a Terrier. But much like the argument with the Hornet Moth there is little point in doing it. To get a truly gentle touchdown which you need, usually means messing about in the flare often using throttle - which does eat runway.
I only ever did it when playing around just to prove I could! Or in a serious (but steady) crosswind. If you could hold it straight on the mains against the wind then it was likely you could stay on the runway using the one and a half good brake applications a Terrier will give you!
I only ever did it when playing around just to prove I could! Or in a serious (but steady) crosswind. If you could hold it straight on the mains against the wind then it was likely you could stay on the runway using the one and a half good brake applications a Terrier will give you!
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I would suggest that you just have might gotten lucky........ The sheer weight of the Terrifier arse end means it stops flying very quickly. To keep the tail up you need a lot of forward speed and that is way to much to be putting it down on the mains without risking a massive bounce or a weather cock. Think how much forward stick you need to get the tail off in the first place......
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So, I'm puzzled; It's been said that you can wheel on just above the stall and put the nose down to get better braking and a shorter rollout.
It seems to me that just above the stall is more or less the definition a 3 point attitude - if the tail is higher, you're probably going faster? Even if you can brake harder initially, after some period of time you're going to arrive at the speed you would have been at if you 3 pointed it. From there whether you raise the tail or not, it's the same game as if you 3 pointed it, but you already spent time braking to get there.
The above of course assumes that you can plant it on the start of the landing area with either method..
As for the alaskan nutters, I always assumed they kept the tailwheel off the ground because it didn't have a big beachball wheel to roll over the rocks, and would probably just fall off.
It seems to me that just above the stall is more or less the definition a 3 point attitude - if the tail is higher, you're probably going faster? Even if you can brake harder initially, after some period of time you're going to arrive at the speed you would have been at if you 3 pointed it. From there whether you raise the tail or not, it's the same game as if you 3 pointed it, but you already spent time braking to get there.
The above of course assumes that you can plant it on the start of the landing area with either method..
As for the alaskan nutters, I always assumed they kept the tailwheel off the ground because it didn't have a big beachball wheel to roll over the rocks, and would probably just fall off.