How many pilots carry VFR charts on an IFR flight?
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How many pilots carry VFR charts on an IFR flight?
Here I am talking about a Eurocontrol flight, radar control service all the way, not the "UK style" casual IFR in Class G which is of course done using the VFR charts.
On Y/Z flight plans you of course need the VFR charts, but what about I ?
On Y/Z flight plans you of course need the VFR charts, but what about I ?
I'm still a very new instrument pilot, and have only done it in FAA land, but I would always carry them. The theory material for the FAA IR states that you should always carry VFR charts in case you lose comms/nav and need to procede VFR, or indeed if you for some reason need to let down without comms you can identify an area of water or similar where you can safely let down below the clouds without meeting the topography.
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The theory material for the FAA IR states that you should always carry VFR charts in case you lose comms/nav and need to procede VFR
The only time one would revert to VFR and stay VFR is where certain classes of emergency happened while in VFR conditions.
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I've always understood that it is mandatory to carry a chart with topographical information. It doesn't have to be a standard ICAO 1:500.000 or sectional chart, you can carry the 1:2.000.000 for legal purposes. It does not have to show detailed airspace information.
I carry the normal VFR charts for several European countries on all flights, even those that are completely IFR (and not V or Z or Y which happens often enough too). But that may just be because I'm a lazy b* and don't want to fuss about where the ** the charts may be.
I carry the normal VFR charts for several European countries on all flights, even those that are completely IFR (and not V or Z or Y which happens often enough too). But that may just be because I'm a lazy b* and don't want to fuss about where the ** the charts may be.
Well, if I lost comms in VFR and had to stay, as per the regulations, in VFR, it would be nice to have VFR charts! It's a recommendation, not a requirement, of course. If you lose comms in VFR you are not permitted to continue non-radio IFR, unless you have a very good reason. I wouldn't like to be without topographical data unless I was somewhere very flat.
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Hello!
I never carried VFR charts on India-Flightplans in 20+ years of instrument flying. Private, commercial and instructing. We fly all over Europe and the heap of VFR charts required would probably cost us one passenger on each flight due to it's weight and size. The cost of yearly renewal for all aeroplanes on our fleet of all those charts would probably ruin the company as well.
But due to my instructing, I always have the 1:500.000 chart of the region where we mostly do our training flights in my flying bag.
Regards,
Max
I never carried VFR charts on India-Flightplans in 20+ years of instrument flying. Private, commercial and instructing. We fly all over Europe and the heap of VFR charts required would probably cost us one passenger on each flight due to it's weight and size. The cost of yearly renewal for all aeroplanes on our fleet of all those charts would probably ruin the company as well.
But due to my instructing, I always have the 1:500.000 chart of the region where we mostly do our training flights in my flying bag.
Regards,
Max
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I normally carry a VFR chart in the USA, just because I happen to have one. I normally make sure I had the destination terminal / sectional chart with me just in case but seeing as I normally fly G1000 equipped aeroplanes there, there is no requirement to and I rarely look at them.
No idea about Eurocontrol, other than when we used to fly around Europe in the King Airs we never had VFR charts (apart from a UK one - but some of the legs were done VFR - repositioning and all that). I doubt RyanAir carry them in the cockpit
Probably not a bad idea though if you happen to have one or have room for one.
No idea about Eurocontrol, other than when we used to fly around Europe in the King Airs we never had VFR charts (apart from a UK one - but some of the legs were done VFR - repositioning and all that). I doubt RyanAir carry them in the cockpit
Probably not a bad idea though if you happen to have one or have room for one.
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It is easy to settle the legality question by considering an I flight plan of a 747 flying JFK-LHR
In the worldwide context, most countries don't even publish VFR charts. Closer to home, Greece doesn't. People fly with the 1990s USAF ONC/TPC charts, or they fly IFR...
Also I think there is some confusion regarding emergency pilot privileges (which are unlimited), what is potentially useful, and what is legally required.
When VFR or IFR I normally run VFR charts as a moving map. These are "real printed" charts for the area (so if over Greece I will be on the 1998 ONC G3). On a VFR flight these will be current. I do this for emergencies; in case of power failure, for quickly locating nearby airfields, or if flying over the Alps above an overcast (to locate a canyon to glide into). And in the UK this saves me messing around with the paper version of the same chart, which stays on the back seat.
On a VFR flight, one needs to maintain VMC unless one has obtained an IFR clearance, which one is obviously not going to obtain if one has lost the radio. But the captain is 100% authorised to do anything to save his life, including flying in IMC, obviously (can't easily imagine a likely scenario which would not lead to questions being asked, mind you) and then the VFR charts could be very useful for the MSA.
On a Z/Y, VFR charts are obviously needed.
But it is inconceivable that VFR charts could be mandatory on a flight filed as "proper IFR" (Eurocontrol) end to end.
In the worldwide context, most countries don't even publish VFR charts. Closer to home, Greece doesn't. People fly with the 1990s USAF ONC/TPC charts, or they fly IFR...
Also I think there is some confusion regarding emergency pilot privileges (which are unlimited), what is potentially useful, and what is legally required.
When VFR or IFR I normally run VFR charts as a moving map. These are "real printed" charts for the area (so if over Greece I will be on the 1998 ONC G3). On a VFR flight these will be current. I do this for emergencies; in case of power failure, for quickly locating nearby airfields, or if flying over the Alps above an overcast (to locate a canyon to glide into). And in the UK this saves me messing around with the paper version of the same chart, which stays on the back seat.
On a VFR flight, one needs to maintain VMC unless one has obtained an IFR clearance, which one is obviously not going to obtain if one has lost the radio. But the captain is 100% authorised to do anything to save his life, including flying in IMC, obviously (can't easily imagine a likely scenario which would not lead to questions being asked, mind you) and then the VFR charts could be very useful for the MSA.
On a Z/Y, VFR charts are obviously needed.
But it is inconceivable that VFR charts could be mandatory on a flight filed as "proper IFR" (Eurocontrol) end to end.
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Not VFR charts, but topographical data must be available in case of emergencies that may force you to look for a place to land.
It can be a large scale chart. It can be a very old chart. Mountains don't move very much.
It can be a large scale chart. It can be a very old chart. Mountains don't move very much.
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A couple of years ago I was very pleased that I was suitably prepared for VFR. IFR departure from Calais, inbound to Cambridge. Flight planned IFR all the way. Normal IFR departure clearance from Calais, and a handover to London. London weren't expecting me and couldn't accept me due to traffic density. Interesting couple of minutes ensued:
"Remain clear of controlled airspace and continue VFR"
"I'm in controlled airspace, and I'm IMC"
"Roger, descend immediately. Call VMC below, and clear of controlled airspace"
Fortunately I was VMC before reaching SALT. Then a mad scrabble to get a suitable VFR chart out of my bag and decide how to route to Cambridge. Solo at the time, so quite a handful.
"Remain clear of controlled airspace and continue VFR"
"I'm in controlled airspace, and I'm IMC"
"Roger, descend immediately. Call VMC below, and clear of controlled airspace"
Fortunately I was VMC before reaching SALT. Then a mad scrabble to get a suitable VFR chart out of my bag and decide how to route to Cambridge. Solo at the time, so quite a handful.
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I wonder how many commercial flights get kicked out of the IFR system "because we're a bit busy"...
Commercial flights operate IFR in class G airspace. They drop out of the airway system into destinations like Inverness or LondonDerry in IMC.
So maybe your question should be "do commercial flights fly IFR OCAS ?" The answer is YES even the 737s of this world.
I am leaning towards getting rid of all the Jepps Aerads with the hateful task of updating them and going to something like a couple of I Pads with data and hardcopies for enroute charts departure destination and alterantive airports only. Everything else as data on computers
Pace
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A couple of years ago I was very pleased that I was suitably prepared for VFR. IFR departure from Calais, inbound to Cambridge. Flight planned IFR all the way. Normal IFR departure clearance from Calais, and a handover to London. London weren't expecting me and couldn't accept me due to traffic density. Interesting couple of minutes ensued:
"Remain clear of controlled airspace and continue VFR"
"I'm in controlled airspace, and I'm IMC"
"Roger, descend immediately. Call VMC below, and clear of controlled airspace"
"Remain clear of controlled airspace and continue VFR"
"I'm in controlled airspace, and I'm IMC"
"Roger, descend immediately. Call VMC below, and clear of controlled airspace"
In short, Calais do not have a letter of agreement with London Control. Only Paris Control have that. So, flying from France to the UK, you need to be talking to Paris Control. How do you achieve that? One way is to fly at FL120 or higher. Another is to fly certain routes (not Class E though).
The "London" you got from Calais was London Information. The clue might have been the 124.60 frequency but a foreign pilot would not have known that.
This is a well known nasty which happens to pilots flying France-UK at say FL080 - despite the fact that at the FIR boundary FL080 is in CAS. You get handed to London Info which is an eviction from CAS. Personally I get around it by always being FL120+ over France - no problem if you have oxygen.
This does not affect jets etc because they are always high enough.
You can get similar things happening if you file a route which briefly leaves CAS, especially in the UK where London Control will drop the service in such a case.
What is supposed to happen is that ATC are supposed to warn you if you ask for a shortcut which might leave CAS. But if you are flying a route which you filed, they may not warn, and just drop the service.
Then, I suppose, you will need the VFR charts
I am leaning towards getting rid of all the Jepps Aerads with the hateful task of updating them and going to something like a couple of I Pads with data and hardcopies for enroute charts departure destination and alterantive airports only. Everything else as data on computers
although their product is far more sunlight-readable than the Ipad)
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Actually not. I was at 120. Handover from Calais to Lille Approach, and then Paris. Then a (supposed) handover to London Control, but clearly not. Can't remember the freq. now, but it was definitely not London Info.
I was doing quite a lot of cross channel IFR at that time, so I was aware of the London Info gotcha. Flying a Mooney Turbo with oxygen, so no problem with the higher levels.
I was doing quite a lot of cross channel IFR at that time, so I was aware of the London Info gotcha. Flying a Mooney Turbo with oxygen, so no problem with the higher levels.
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Sounds like an ATC c0ckup to me. Possibly, something went wrong with the flight plan. Let's say Calais gave you the wrong squawk; London Control would have never seen your plane on their system and after a while (30 mins?) would have binned the flight plan.
There are, I gather, other circumstances which would cause LC to bin a flight plan, but I don't have any details.
At FL120+ I have never had a problem myself.
There are, I gather, other circumstances which would cause LC to bin a flight plan, but I don't have any details.
At FL120+ I have never had a problem myself.
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Sounds like an ATC c0ckup to me. Possibly, something went wrong with the flight plan. Let's say Calais gave you the wrong squawk; London Control would have never seen your plane on their system and after a while (30 mins?) would have binned the flight plan.
There are, I gather, other circumstances which would cause LC to bin a flight plan, but I don't have any details.
There are, I gather, other circumstances which would cause LC to bin a flight plan, but I don't have any details.
The problem lowish level is the London area and all the approaches and departures from Heathrow etc.
Chances are you will be vectored all over the place and dropped down so your IFR planned route goes south back to brussels anyway
I had the same problem with London! I ended up being vectored on a tour of southern England, passed from one controller to another till having gone towards Birmingham I ended up being vectored back south west to CPT when I was supposed to be going North west.
The controller hadnt a clue where I was going and then dumped dumped me to London Info at FL100 on top of an overcast
So not that unusual! We are unwanted but tolerated small fry in that area.Pace
Cambridge arrivals from that direction route DVR DET ABBOT1E. While it's increasingly common to be routed east and then north of the Stansted CTR/CTA, I've never had a situation where I was forced out of controlled airspace before that.
In terms of VFR charts, I tend to carry them because it offers the option of flying VFR below the IFR MEAs when the usual IFR levels are either bumpy or icy. That said, I've rarely exercised that option.
In terms of VFR charts, I tend to carry them because it offers the option of flying VFR below the IFR MEAs when the usual IFR levels are either bumpy or icy. That said, I've rarely exercised that option.
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Tigger Too, I had exactly the same problem, filed IFR out of Lille into Fairoaks with a change to VFR over BIG so I could get a service from London for a descent to 2400 over BIG then VFR into Fairoaks.
Handed over to London mid channel, told to either route dct GWC or descend to remain clear. Annoying after a 50 min slot delay on a deserted apron at Lille. I chose to descend and continue VFR but very poor show from London, I might as well gone VFR all the way back and got home 50 mins earlier.
Handed over to London mid channel, told to either route dct GWC or descend to remain clear. Annoying after a 50 min slot delay on a deserted apron at Lille. I chose to descend and continue VFR but very poor show from London, I might as well gone VFR all the way back and got home 50 mins earlier.
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This "getting dumped out of CAS" has been a hot topic for a lot longer than I've had the IR, so I can't offer a historical perspective, but I get the feeling that things have improved in recent years.
Apart from the Paris Control --- London Control business, which seems to be very current. You won't get a handover from Lille etc straight to London Control, to continue with the IFR clearance, even if the flight is 100% in Class A in UK airspace.
I don't do much airways IFR in the UK but my experience of it has been reasonable. Lots of vectors, sure. But at FL100-120, OK.
However I must say that I usually file FL140/150, simply because the routings are often so much better, my oxygen comes cheap, and there is no possibility of anybody thinking a FL140 flight plan is from somebody with an IMC Rating, which is a possible interpretation of filing at say FL070.
But getting dropped anywhere near CPT at FL100 is astonishing incompetence and I would simply refuse because there is no way to get down from there without conflict with LHR/LGW traffic.
OTOH getting dropped @ FL100 OCAS, which is possible slightly SW or NW of CPT (Class A base e.g. FL105) would be in line with London Control's working practices, but they should not have sent you OCAS in the first place. I wonder when this happened, and was it MORd?
Apart from the Paris Control --- London Control business, which seems to be very current. You won't get a handover from Lille etc straight to London Control, to continue with the IFR clearance, even if the flight is 100% in Class A in UK airspace.
I don't do much airways IFR in the UK but my experience of it has been reasonable. Lots of vectors, sure. But at FL100-120, OK.
However I must say that I usually file FL140/150, simply because the routings are often so much better, my oxygen comes cheap, and there is no possibility of anybody thinking a FL140 flight plan is from somebody with an IMC Rating, which is a possible interpretation of filing at say FL070.
But getting dropped anywhere near CPT at FL100 is astonishing incompetence and I would simply refuse because there is no way to get down from there without conflict with LHR/LGW traffic.
OTOH getting dropped @ FL100 OCAS, which is possible slightly SW or NW of CPT (Class A base e.g. FL105) would be in line with London Control's working practices, but they should not have sent you OCAS in the first place. I wonder when this happened, and was it MORd?
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Hello IO540,
The PPL/IR group have a visit arranged with NATS later this year. It might be worth getting yourself booked onto it?
This "getting dumped out of CAS" has been a hot topic for a lot longer than I've had the IR