Judging height in the hold-off
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Judging height in the hold-off
I have been flying for about 180 hours on Cessna 172 mostly and some hours on Piper Archer 181.
I am fairly confident that I land well on most occasions, consistently. The last circuit training flight I did, I tried to concentrate on those final few seconds in the hold-off, just before you touch the runway. I realised that I don't know exactly how high I am from the surface of the runway ... I can "feel" that I should be close, but I never really can tell EXACTLY how high I am and whether a touchdown is going to be a greaser or whether I am still going to be 1 foot or so above the runway when it stalls (lands).
So, I am curious. How many pilots (light aircraft) can tell EXACTLY how high they are from the runway surface those final moments before touchdown, or is it really a "feel" thing, like with me most of the time ?
And yes, I have been tought to look ahead of the aircraft, slightly to the left, to the point down the runway where it appears to be stationary. I still can never tell exactly how high I am, except for anticipating and "feeling" when it feels that I am about to touch down.
I am fairly confident that I land well on most occasions, consistently. The last circuit training flight I did, I tried to concentrate on those final few seconds in the hold-off, just before you touch the runway. I realised that I don't know exactly how high I am from the surface of the runway ... I can "feel" that I should be close, but I never really can tell EXACTLY how high I am and whether a touchdown is going to be a greaser or whether I am still going to be 1 foot or so above the runway when it stalls (lands).
So, I am curious. How many pilots (light aircraft) can tell EXACTLY how high they are from the runway surface those final moments before touchdown, or is it really a "feel" thing, like with me most of the time ?
And yes, I have been tought to look ahead of the aircraft, slightly to the left, to the point down the runway where it appears to be stationary. I still can never tell exactly how high I am, except for anticipating and "feeling" when it feels that I am about to touch down.
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It's called a 'flare' not a 'hold off'
and no. I don't care how high I actually am, cause the difference of a couple of feet doesn't matter, you'll just have a slightly longer landing distance if you happen to be a little high in the flare..
With 8000 hrs, I still land firm, or grease them.. just depends on the day.. I don't care much either way.
and no. I don't care how high I actually am, cause the difference of a couple of feet doesn't matter, you'll just have a slightly longer landing distance if you happen to be a little high in the flare..
With 8000 hrs, I still land firm, or grease them.. just depends on the day.. I don't care much either way.
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No, the flare comes first, then the hold off.
In the flare, just above the runway (I've heard the height to be stated as that of a double decker bus but that's up to you) you raise the nose and cut the power. As one tries to 'hold off', with no power, the attitude needs to be progressively increased (pitched up) since the speed is bleeding off. You should be sinking at a very low rate as you look towards the end of the runway to judge the sink. If the stall warning sounds before you touch down, you have overcooked it!
Once the main gear is on the runway, gently lower the nose wheel (with tricycle gear) onto the runway.
In the flare, just above the runway (I've heard the height to be stated as that of a double decker bus but that's up to you) you raise the nose and cut the power. As one tries to 'hold off', with no power, the attitude needs to be progressively increased (pitched up) since the speed is bleeding off. You should be sinking at a very low rate as you look towards the end of the runway to judge the sink. If the stall warning sounds before you touch down, you have overcooked it!
Once the main gear is on the runway, gently lower the nose wheel (with tricycle gear) onto the runway.
Last edited by lambert; 2nd Jul 2010 at 07:22.
I understand jets don't "hold off" but "fly on", hence the possible confusion (everyone of course flares).
I think that's very much the point. It becomes an instinct from practice rather than a precise judgement. And sometimes your instinct is deceived by your visual cues (especially at night), hold off too high and thunk it down harder than you would like.
(Expect this thread moved to Private Flying sometime very soon)
... I can "feel" that I should be close, but I never really can tell EXACTLY how high I am
(Expect this thread moved to Private Flying sometime very soon)
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180 hrs on type would give you a CPL. And you should be on the way to an Instructors rating by now also.
Your question indicates to me that maybe flying is not for you.
Don't mean to be hard on you but if you don't know the answer to your question after 180 hrs, you probably never will.
Your question indicates to me that maybe flying is not for you.
Don't mean to be hard on you but if you don't know the answer to your question after 180 hrs, you probably never will.
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In a light aircraft I was taught to look out and down of the side windows, in daytime, and not to stare fixedly over the nose. In a high-wing like the C172 you can even look at the wheels, as I recall, there's no law against that...
At night the tip I was given was to flare when the runway edge lights appear to be at your shoulder level. It works.
PS Obie's got a good point; this is pre-PPL test stuff, at least for daytime!
At night the tip I was given was to flare when the runway edge lights appear to be at your shoulder level. It works.
PS Obie's got a good point; this is pre-PPL test stuff, at least for daytime!
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Guys, guys, guys. NO WHERE did I say I struggle with my landings. Read my post C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y
"I am fairly confident that I land well on most occasions, consistently."
If I did not know how to land after 180 hours, I would have quit 160 hours ago.
My question was, whether for most guys flying light aircraft, if the last 1-3 feet before touch down is judged on "feel" and experience, or an ability to judge height perfectly. You can judge you are very close to the runway surface, but is it 1 foot or 4 foot. I am talking about the last 2 - 3 seconds of the flight ... which determines whether it will be a greaser or a landing you can feel (firm). I can damn guarantee you that many guys judge this on feeling, and that was what I wanted to know.
OBIE2: Some guys fly for FUN. Not everyone flying a plane MUST go for CPL and MUST become an instructor. If you become an INSTRUCTOR because you MUST, and not because you WANT TO, then please let me know so I can stay WELL CLEAR OF YOU.
DONT HANG UP: Very interesting reply. It certainly gives a new perspective.
AAIGUY: Good to know with 8000 hours behind you you still get the odd hard landing. Makes us low-time guys feel less "guilty" about the odd non-greaser.
"I am fairly confident that I land well on most occasions, consistently."
If I did not know how to land after 180 hours, I would have quit 160 hours ago.
My question was, whether for most guys flying light aircraft, if the last 1-3 feet before touch down is judged on "feel" and experience, or an ability to judge height perfectly. You can judge you are very close to the runway surface, but is it 1 foot or 4 foot. I am talking about the last 2 - 3 seconds of the flight ... which determines whether it will be a greaser or a landing you can feel (firm). I can damn guarantee you that many guys judge this on feeling, and that was what I wanted to know.
OBIE2: Some guys fly for FUN. Not everyone flying a plane MUST go for CPL and MUST become an instructor. If you become an INSTRUCTOR because you MUST, and not because you WANT TO, then please let me know so I can stay WELL CLEAR OF YOU.
DONT HANG UP: Very interesting reply. It certainly gives a new perspective.
AAIGUY: Good to know with 8000 hours behind you you still get the odd hard landing. Makes us low-time guys feel less "guilty" about the odd non-greaser.
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180 hrs on type would give you a CPL. And you should be on the way to an Instructors rating by now also.
Your question indicates to me that maybe flying is not for you.
Don't mean to be hard on you but if you don't know the answer to your question after 180 hrs, you probably never will.
Your question indicates to me that maybe flying is not for you.
Don't mean to be hard on you but if you don't know the answer to your question after 180 hrs, you probably never will.
There is nothing more satisfying that the perfect landing; The ability to hold the aircraft just above the runway until it finally settles, and if it is a nose wheel, to hold off the nose wheel for as long as possible until that too has no choice but to land.
This translates into having a sense of where the aircraft "is" in the final phase of the approach. After a few thousand hours I still dont have any idea (in terms of precise feet and inches) but I know when it is right and I know when it is not. I have got a pretty good feel if it is going to be a greaser and I aim for maybe 90% to meet this criteria.
It is subtle. Fly a different type or take a few months off and you can still make a good landing but you know it isnt a perfect landing.
If you have never done so fly with someone who can consistantly land really well to set a bench mark. After that you will just know when you have performed a greaser. To start with it may not happen every time but you will get better and you will know you are getting better.
I am not sure you will ever know how many feet and inches you are off the runway, but you will know if the height and speed is correct which is all that matters.
Hope that helps.
(Just seen your post and edited to add: one of the best ways I have found of improving your landing is go find a really long runway, and spend a happy hour in the circuit; make sure you try really hard each landing to nail the approach speed, have a look at flying a few different approach speeds as well (obvioulsy within the limits of the POH), bearing in mind if it is just you in the aircraft with fuel say to tabs you will be very light, then make sure you resist landing for as long as possible. You may find the first few times you float for what seems like ever (make sure the runway really is long enough) but it is surprising how much that will develop your feel for where the aircraft is relative to the runway.)
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 2nd Jul 2010 at 08:22.
100 hours asks a perectly reasonable question, and gets responses saying he should know better as he could be a CPL or an instructor.
Maybe 100 hours is very happy as a PPL and is just showing a professional attitude by trying to improve his skills.
None of us is perfect and we should all be learning something new every flight, so why not answer in a constructive manner instead.
My answer to his question is, I may not know to the inch, but generally in light aircraft I get an overall perspective from peripheral vision. To be honest I am unsure exactly where I do look when landing, but I am not looking directly downwards through te side window, although as i said peripheral vision gives me my clues.
However in an open cockpit taildragger I tend to have my head out the side to try to get a beter view!
Maybe 100 hours is very happy as a PPL and is just showing a professional attitude by trying to improve his skills.
None of us is perfect and we should all be learning something new every flight, so why not answer in a constructive manner instead.
My answer to his question is, I may not know to the inch, but generally in light aircraft I get an overall perspective from peripheral vision. To be honest I am unsure exactly where I do look when landing, but I am not looking directly downwards through te side window, although as i said peripheral vision gives me my clues.
However in an open cockpit taildragger I tend to have my head out the side to try to get a beter view!
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yes,what Fuji says is spot on,I have less hours than you, 170, and have also sometimes wondered exactly how high I am on the hold off.
I don't think it matters within a couple of feet,just keep on flying until she decides to give in
Sometimes a greaser,sometimes even get three landings for the price of one,
I fly a taildragger off grass and blame the moles.
Lister
By the way,you do get some total plonkers posting on here,just ignore them.
There are also some with masses of experience,and even more important, they write on here so that we can understand it.
I don't think it matters within a couple of feet,just keep on flying until she decides to give in
Sometimes a greaser,sometimes even get three landings for the price of one,
I fly a taildragger off grass and blame the moles.
Lister
By the way,you do get some total plonkers posting on here,just ignore them.
There are also some with masses of experience,and even more important, they write on here so that we can understand it.
In a light aircraft I was taught to look out and down of the side windows, in daytime, and not to stare fixedly over the nose
And with a tail-dragger its not so much a hold-off as "going fishing" with that tail wheel.
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Originally Posted by Lambert
If the stall warning sounds before you touch down, you have overcooked it!
The skills I learnt that summer about landing have helped me at every stage and on every aircraft I've flown in the 3000hrs since then, but like others have said there are still days where you think you are going to grease on but it just crashes on!
Good luck!
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I've got around 200 hours but I'm a member of a club and fly different types of aircraft. There's only one type that I'm fairly consistent in greasing it on in. The others - depends on the day. As long as the main wheels touch first and the aircraft centerline is aligned with the runway centerline, I guess that's about all you can hope for.
As others have said, it's the sight picture. There are minute visual cues to judge how high you are, but these cues are different for each aircraft type, and sometimes for individual aircraft as well.
What I personally found particularly challenging was going from SEP aircraft to gliders and vice versa. In a glider you sit half as low to the ground as in a SEP aircraft. In fact, you feel like your bum is beneath the surface level.
And at the other end of the scale: I have a mate who is a 737 captain and also flies a Europa from a grass airstrip. Last weekend he landed his Europa for the first time at a major airport with a big runway, and flared at about 20 feet above the runway... Thank god for stall warners and quick reflexes...
As others have said, it's the sight picture. There are minute visual cues to judge how high you are, but these cues are different for each aircraft type, and sometimes for individual aircraft as well.
What I personally found particularly challenging was going from SEP aircraft to gliders and vice versa. In a glider you sit half as low to the ground as in a SEP aircraft. In fact, you feel like your bum is beneath the surface level.
And at the other end of the scale: I have a mate who is a 737 captain and also flies a Europa from a grass airstrip. Last weekend he landed his Europa for the first time at a major airport with a big runway, and flared at about 20 feet above the runway... Thank god for stall warners and quick reflexes...
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Sorry guys. Being a retired airline pilot and after 45 yrs in the business, having started at the age of 19, and progressing from SPL to PPL to CPL to Instructor rating to SCPL to 2nd class ATPL and then finally a 1st class ATPL and then 16 odd thousand hrs on a variety of piston, turbo prop and jet a/c including checking and training time, I thought I might be able to help out poor old 100 hrs with his dilemma!
Obviously not!
I shall leave "100 hrs" and the rest of you "experts" to it!
Best of british luck!
Obviously not!
I shall leave "100 hrs" and the rest of you "experts" to it!
Best of british luck!
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I know how high I am because of the times I got it wrong. If I get it right first time in a new type then I always feel I was a bit lucky. Only a bit. You can over think these things.
Sorry guys. Being a retired airline pilot and after 45 yrs in the business, having started at the age of 19, and progressing from SPL to PPL to CPL to Instructor rating to SCPL to 2nd class ATPL and then finally a 1st class ATPL and then 16 odd thousand hrs on a variety of piston, turbo prop and jet a/c including checking and training time, I thought I might be able to help out poor old 100 hrs with his dilemma!
Obviously not!
Obviously not!
What Fuji Abound says.....All good stuff.
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Personally, I find there is nothing more likely to b*gger up my judgement in the latter stages of approach than looking out of the side window
As for the OP's question, I have about the same number of hours, and I would say no one could ever "know" the exact distance between the wheels and the ground (not many GA planes have a radar altimeter!). Neither would you want to know exactly as other things are just as important i.e. speed and attitude.
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Being a retired airline pilot and after 45 yrs in the business, having started at the age of 19, and progressing from SPL to PPL to CPL to Instructor rating to SCPL to 2nd class ATPL and then finally a 1st class ATPL and then 16 odd thousand hrs on a variety of piston, turbo prop and jet a/c including checking and training time, I thought I might be able to help out poor old 100 hrs with his dilemma!
I don't care if you have a million hours and a type rating to fly Virgin Galactic into space. I would not want to be taught by someone like yourself.