Controlled airspace handover

[Tolka]

A friend of mine was recently flying IFR from Jersey to Ireland. When approaching the limit of the Jersey Class A airspace he was handed over to London Information. Upon contact with London Information he was asked to remain outside controlled airspace. This threw him a bit as he was already in controlled airspace so how could he remain outside it. He eventually explained to London Information that he wanted to enter UK controlled airspace to continue his IFR flight to Ireland. London Information coordinated this as he eventually received his clearance just as he reached the limit of the Jersey Class A. As I am about to do a similar trip IFR in a few weeks time I was wondering the following:
(a) should Jersey not have handed him over to a air traffic control unit rather than London Information since he had made no request to leave controlled airspace.
(b) should London Information not have known already that he was in controlled airspace and the request to remain outside controlled airspace was meaningless.

Tolka

[IO540]

This is an old chestnut of the way UK airspace is managed

In practical terms, you have two watertight airspace compartments:

1) the "commercial" airspace, which is mostly Class A and is handled by London Control, Manchester Control, etc, and is 100% radar control airspace. These controllers provide zero service to VFR traffic, and they don't handle flights below a certain level, or more specifically outside controlled airspace. In this airspace, you get the seamless IFR enroute clearance/service which European IFR pilots are used to.

2) the "stuff below" which gets a FIS from London Information, etc, and the occassional radar service from units like Farnborough.

The two compartments don't really connect up - unlike say France where there is a lot more integration.

The bottom line is that if you enter UK airspace, on a Eurocontrol IFR flight, and you find yourself outside controlled airspace (even briefly), you will not get a handover to London Control. You will get handed to London Information, which amounts to an eviction from ontrolled airspace and if you want to get back in, you have to get LI to negotiate a new IFR clearance for you

This is a common issue from France to the UK which catches out a lot of pilots.

There are two ways to solve it.

One is to leave French airspace at a level which is fully in CAS and more to the point at which you are being serviced by Paris Control. From conversations with non-UK ATCOs it appears that Paris Control have a letter of agreement with London Control for a direct handover. In practice, I have found, this means you want to leave French airspace at FL120 or higher. Quite often, on a nice day, one is crusing across France at say FL100 (no oxygen needed, etc) but if you are heading for say somewhere halfway up the UK, and want the weather avoidance options which you get in IFR, you want to climb to FL120 before Paris Control hands you over.

The other is to pick a route which is 100% in CAS; this is quite restrictive because there are not many such airways.

From Jersey to Ireland, I don't know the best solution but one way would be to file a route initially up via ORTAC, which remains in CAS and then once over the UK, turn west and head to Ireland. Looking at an old VFR chart I have on the wall, N862/N864 to BCN and then to STU, FL110 rising to FL150, etc to remain in CAS. If, out of Jersey you file a more direct route over say Plymouth, or if you fly N862/864 at say FL090, this will be Class G (below FL200, I think) and you will get dumped onto London Information...

I don't see a way to get from Jersey to Ireland, with a continuous IFR clearance, unless you fly the airway routes and are capable of FL150 around STU.

[ozineurope]

Is there not the phrase "control service terminated contact .......information"?? This then provides informaiton and advice that the flight has left CAS and moved into Class G once crossing the border?

That's what would happen in Australia when transitioning from Class C to G or A to G.

[IO540]

Is there not the phrase "control service terminated contact .......information"??

No.

They expect the pilot to know that London Information doesn't do controlled airspace.



It's a very bad procedure.

[Fright Level]

I've flown IFR many times from the Channel Islands and neighbouring France (Dinard, Deauville, La Rochelle) into the UK and never been booted out of controlled airspace, always a handover to London Control who then fret how they are going to descend me from FL100/110/120 into Fairoaks past the LHR and LGW holds but always offer full IFR control until descent and handover to Farnborough to leave controlled airspace.

[IO540]

Yes, that one should work via the ORTAC route, to the IOW, etc. It's CAS down to about 3500ft down that way.

[Fuji Abound]

R41 and R8

[bookworm]

When approaching the limit of the Jersey Class A airspace he was handed over to London Information.

What level and route?

[IO540]

IFR procedures over here are mostly "pilot community knowledge", to plug the operational gaps in the IR training... I've sent you a PM with some links.

[Tolka]

IO540

I would be very interested in any links with the type of information you mentioned.

Tolka

[OA32]

should Jersey not have handed him over to a air traffic control unit rather than London Information since he had made no request to leave controlled airspace

Firstly, i've had many pilots go to another frequency other than the one suggested because it suits them better, what frequency is suggested entirely depends on what level and route the pilot has filed. Secondly, just because the pilot has filed an IFR plan does not mean that they will automatically be kept within CAS regardless of the route/level they have filed. It is the pilots responsibility to be aware of what route he has filed and the service he is likely to receive as a result. The base of airway N866 which runs from SKERY-BHD and onwards is FL85, so normally you have to be FL100 unless London are willing to accept you @ FL90. As has already been mentioned the routing and level he was using at the time would allow me to give you a better answer.

Fuji Abound and IO540

The airway is now called Q41 and the base of it is FL35 which can be lost due to pressure changes.

Also the phrase sometimes used is

G-ABCD leaving controlled airspace radar service terminated, type of service (if any) offered, report leaving the frequency.

I would expect that the 'Information' in London Information is a big enough clue that a control service isn't being given especially for a pilot who has an IR.....

[chevvron]

Pilots should also bear in mind that London Info is operated by FISOs not by ATCOs, thus they cannot give 'clearances' either IFR or VFR unless they are passing one on from an ATCO.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by OA32

I would expect that the 'Information' in London Information is a big enough clue that a control service isn't being given especially for a pilot who has an IR.....

This 'feature' does seem to be unique to the UK/CI airspace. Everywhere else I have ever flown seems to give a whole route clearance (even if it includes a DCT outside controlled airspace). You don't have the, 'Radar Service terminated contact XYZ' and then your first call to XYZ being 'Requesting joining clearance at ABCDE, estimating in 6 minutes' kind of exchange just a comment you are leaving/entering controlled airspace. Although to be fair many countries have extensive Class E so the frequency of leaving controlled airspace is less than it would be in the UK.

[Fuji Abound]

The airway is now called Q41 and the base of it is FL35 which can be lost due to pressure changes.

Yes, I was looking at my old chart - and I assume it is still FL35 or 3,014 AMSL whichever is higher.

I would agree with Mr Flynn - this really is a peculiarity of the way we do things. The airspace and services are hopelessly unintergrated - you should how this sort of thing is done in the States, whether you are VFR or IFR, inside or outside of CAS; dont tell me they have more money, less traffic, less complicated airspace or whichever other excuse we may like to pick.

[OA32]

All fair comments, but I would like to point out the Danger areas that cover most of the English channel, they are not always available for transit and therefore for us to issue DCT clearances outside CAS would require co-ordination before the flight has even taken off which would be most impractical given the changeable nature of the areas. Also given the number of different agencies within the UK (compared to the USA's 1) there is no guarantee that they would have knowledge of the flight as it depends entirely on how the pilot has filed, and in the case of AFPEX, addressed the plan. I agree that flying airways into the CICTR in a small a/c can mean going a longer routing than may be desirable, there is also the problem of radar coverage in certain areas, this is why Jersey can only give a Basic Service outside of the CICTZ in UK airspace. If the controllers aren't busy then you may be handed over to a LARS unit but the priority will always be with a/c operating within our airspace.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<This 'feature' does seem to be unique to the UK/CI airspace. Everywhere else I have ever flown seems to give a whole route clearance (even if it includes a DCT outside controlled airspace). >>

I was trained to ICAO standards in 1966 and that's how we did it and I employed that procedure whilst working in Africa and the UK. ATC cannot "clear" anything outside CAS so the pilot should be cleared to leave CAS at (position) and after flying through Indian Country he should then request clearance to rejoin.

[derekf]

Tolka,

What clearance was provided initially by Jersey?

It sounds to me like he was not on an airways route so Jersey would only clear them to the zone boundry and then hand them to London Information. If they were route planned airways (ie controlled airspace out of Jersey) they would be given a further clearance in all likelyhood and be passed over to London Information.

There's not really a disconnect. If they are IFR and are leaving the zone into class G airspace then they will get London Information as no clearance can be provided - if they are leaving and staying in controlled airspace then they will be handed over to London control.

Derek...

[IO540]

It is the pilots responsibility to be aware of what route he has filed and the service he is likely to receive as a result.

I think you would find that if you lined up 100 really experienced international IFR pilots, including any number of airline pilots, all flying GA planes, (but not residents of Goodwood, Shoreham, Lydd, etc) and got them all to develop (let's skip for now how exactly they are going to do the "development") a route which does not get chucked out by CFMU, from say middle of France to the middle of the UK, and then got them to fly it on a clear day, you will find that most of the unpressurised ones will settle nicely at say FL100, and about 99% of them will fall for this trick of being transferred to London Information

I have had this a number of times (before I sussed the simple work-around which is to force a handover from Paris Control to London Control, by leaving France not below FL120; this requires oxygen but I always have that anyway) and not once was I told anything about leaving controlled airspace. The system assumes that everybody is a local hack.

The word "information" is not really a sufficient clue that your IFR clearance has been terminated, because in France you can be flying on a Eurocontrol flight plan, at say FL080, Class E, and get a seamless radar service. Then if you want, due weather, a climb to FL150, you get a transfer to Paris Control, and the seamless service continues.

If you have a pragmatic ATC system, where everybody has radar, there is no operational need to drop traffic the moment it leaves CAS.

The UK could do the same if it wanted to, but what's happened is that the "professional pilot controllers" have nailed their flag to Class A airspace, which works OK in the UK but this system is not used anywhere else. Only Italy has so much Class A but Italy is a mess anyway.

Also, for all the rules which CFMU runs, most of which bear little relation to what ATC operates on the day, if Country X was dumping an IFR clearance on traffic leaving CAS, then CFMU should reject such routings - but it doesn't

[derekf]

To be fair - Peter does have a point.

However, I would expect that most GA pilots with a UK / JAA IR that learnt reasonably recently in the UK would have experience taking off on an IR flight plan in controlled airspace and being given to London Information to then get a clearance into controlled airspace or airways. All training from Bournemouth as an example would see this.

I do agree that for pilots who have an FAA IR that they would not really understand this (I certainly had the same issues when I first got an FAA IR). This is in no way a 'pop' at the FAA IR, more an observation that training that FAA training in the US doesn't really sjow you so much of the 'oddities' in the UK when taking off from a controlled airspace under IFR and going to London Information to then get a clearance into controlled airspace.

[OA32]

The word "information" is not really a sufficient clue that your IFR clearance has been terminated, because in France you can be flying on a Eurocontrol flight plan, at say FL080, Class E, and get a seamless radar service. Then if you want, due weather, a climb to FL150, you get a transfer to Paris Control, and the seamless service continues.

At no point did I make any reference about it meaning your IFR clearance has been terminated, indeed you can still be IFR outside CAS without a clearance. Certainly the hint about the point at which the clearance terminates would be in the initial clearance given on start up. If the flight (as far as we are aware) is going to be wholly within CAS then the clearance limit will be the destination airfield. If we know the flight will be going out of CAS when leaving the CICTZ then the boundary will be the clearance limit.

I hate to be the one to point it out but Class E is still controlled airspace, hence the seamless service as IFR flights require a clearance before entry and have to comply with ATC instructions. On the other hand, aside from the airways, the UK airspace that borders the CICTR is Class G which is uncontrolled, this is mainly due to the military not wanting to give away airspace it can use freely.