Am I too stubborn?
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Woking
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I'm also a member of a club that can't handle cash for all the reasons stated - shed at the end of the runway, all officers volunteers etc. We just don't take cash - people know that when they join and thats that. We use cheques for everything - fly the aeroplane, stick the cheque in the drawer. Do the same for yearly subsrcriptions, joining fees etc.
A problem that is creeping up on us is banks signalling the end of using cheques (it costs them money). We've used that method of payment for a very long time, and it works very well. But if cheques go away, and they will, we can't decide the most sensible way to choose for payment.
For minimal angst, any suggestions?
B
A problem that is creeping up on us is banks signalling the end of using cheques (it costs them money). We've used that method of payment for a very long time, and it works very well. But if cheques go away, and they will, we can't decide the most sensible way to choose for payment.
For minimal angst, any suggestions?
B
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
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For minimal angst, any suggestions?
- Every member to mandate a direct debit of some sort.
- Some sort of PIN terminal (or whatever it's called) in the clubhouse.
Nothing spectacularly new in that list, and I'm sure you've considered all of them already. Either way, the treasurers work is going to increase.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
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FWIW and written as a Direct Debit Originator:-
Under the Direct Debit Guarantee the payer can require a refund from his bank and does not have to prove any wrongdoing on the part of the payee. The payee is then OBLIGED to refund the payer's bank. This results from a "simplification" of the rules, which I found out about the hard way when a customer who'd paid by DD claimed a refund from his bank, who I had to refund. There was nothing wrong with the goods and he hasn't returned them. We're now having to take him to Court to get payment.
From your point of view you are more secure with a DD because your bank will refund you on request.
10% is a ludicrous additional charge. However for a club with 1000 members the savings by automating payments are significant and some cost difference is justified. In my case we bill customers for phone calls on a monthly basis and there is a charge of £4 for each invoice not paid by DD. That is a fairer reflection of our additional cost because the administration cost to us is per transaction, regardless of the amount involved. Those who pay by DD get a saving that reflects the saving to us of getting payment on time and reduced admin.
Similarly on support contracts we have an annual charge but it can be paid quarterly by DD at no additional cost to the customer.
Think about the cashflow implications:-
500 contracts at £200 is £100,000
If paid annually in advance you have on average 6 months worth in hand, i.e. 50k
If paid quarterly in advance you have on average six and a half weeks worth in hand, i.e. 12.5k
Quarterly DD therefore requires an extra 37.5k of working capital but it's worth it to us because of the savings in administration.
I hope you can see from the above that your outrage, while understandable, results from a simplistic view. Administration costs have to be passed on to the punter and if you can reduce them then you can provide better value to your customers.
Under the Direct Debit Guarantee the payer can require a refund from his bank and does not have to prove any wrongdoing on the part of the payee. The payee is then OBLIGED to refund the payer's bank. This results from a "simplification" of the rules, which I found out about the hard way when a customer who'd paid by DD claimed a refund from his bank, who I had to refund. There was nothing wrong with the goods and he hasn't returned them. We're now having to take him to Court to get payment.
From your point of view you are more secure with a DD because your bank will refund you on request.
10% is a ludicrous additional charge. However for a club with 1000 members the savings by automating payments are significant and some cost difference is justified. In my case we bill customers for phone calls on a monthly basis and there is a charge of £4 for each invoice not paid by DD. That is a fairer reflection of our additional cost because the administration cost to us is per transaction, regardless of the amount involved. Those who pay by DD get a saving that reflects the saving to us of getting payment on time and reduced admin.
Similarly on support contracts we have an annual charge but it can be paid quarterly by DD at no additional cost to the customer.
Think about the cashflow implications:-
500 contracts at £200 is £100,000
If paid annually in advance you have on average 6 months worth in hand, i.e. 50k
If paid quarterly in advance you have on average six and a half weeks worth in hand, i.e. 12.5k
Quarterly DD therefore requires an extra 37.5k of working capital but it's worth it to us because of the savings in administration.
I hope you can see from the above that your outrage, while understandable, results from a simplistic view. Administration costs have to be passed on to the punter and if you can reduce them then you can provide better value to your customers.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Yorkshire
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Timely, this ....
I pay my mobile phone bills (like most of my bills) each month by direct bank transfer (cos I'm closely related to Scrooge, and I like to check them before I pay them, having been ripped off too many times before : also, I once had just over £11K lifted from my account "in error", and it took me weeks to get it back, so I don't like DD). Therefore, O2 get the money paid directly into their account, with no "admin" required.
I've just noticed that on the bottom of the bills I'm now being charged a fee for "Direct Debit Opt-Out" ! Bl**dy outrageous, I've never "opted out" of anything, and even if I had, they have still been getting their dosh on exactly the same day, month after month, for years now without having to lift an administrative finger !
Grumpy old git hat firmly on, I shall be on the dog and bone this morning. I'm quite sure it won't do any good, but ....
I pay my mobile phone bills (like most of my bills) each month by direct bank transfer (cos I'm closely related to Scrooge, and I like to check them before I pay them, having been ripped off too many times before : also, I once had just over £11K lifted from my account "in error", and it took me weeks to get it back, so I don't like DD). Therefore, O2 get the money paid directly into their account, with no "admin" required.
I've just noticed that on the bottom of the bills I'm now being charged a fee for "Direct Debit Opt-Out" ! Bl**dy outrageous, I've never "opted out" of anything, and even if I had, they have still been getting their dosh on exactly the same day, month after month, for years now without having to lift an administrative finger !
Grumpy old git hat firmly on, I shall be on the dog and bone this morning. I'm quite sure it won't do any good, but ....
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Therefore, O2 get the money paid directly into their account, with no "admin" required.
Reason? On your bill you'll find your customer number, invoice number and maybe a few other bits and pieces. You've got to copy these manually into your online banking program. If you get these numbers right, the O2 computer can automatically match the transaction with the invoice and thus mark the invoice "paid", with no admin required. However, every now and then somebody doesn't understand the purpose of these numbers, or makes a typo. And then it requires a human being to match the transfer to the proper invoice. I have no statistics to hand, but my guess is between 1 and 5% of these transactions requires some form of human intervention. Which is expensive.
Whereas with DD, the invoice, the transaction and their match is all done by computers. Who typically don't make mistakes like that.
Furthermore, specifically for telco companies: Their invoicing/admin system is highly sophisticated and fully automated and they like it that way. After all, these companies have to make a *profit* on each 2 cent phone call. You can't do that with a billing system that costs more than a euro or so in admin fees per invoice.
In contrast, I work for a large IT firm and if you take the total cost of the accounts receivable department and divide it by the number of invoices they handle, you get a ballpark figure of 100-150 euros per invoice.
Grumpy old git hat firmly on, I shall be on the dog and bone this morning. I'm quite sure it won't do any good, but ....
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Personally I'm slightly shocked that nobody's questioned why you're spending £300 a year on flying club membership?!
Mine used to be circa £130, including the year membership, insurance, facilities, and even a complimentary ticket to the yearly black tie p*ss up!
Why so expensive?
Mine used to be circa £130, including the year membership, insurance, facilities, and even a complimentary ticket to the yearly black tie p*ss up!
Why so expensive?
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sth Bucks UK
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Thanks Gents for all of your contributions.
I would like to say that I am not "outraged" though, just a little irritated....
Why pay £300 in the first place? It's a good question and certainly the extra 10% at this price does rather raise the eyebrows.
The club in question is a very well known and popular club (with a 1000+ members I guess that speaks for itself); lots of interesting a/c based there, excellent club house, food etc, good instructors, good selection of a/c for hire, very friendly atmosphere etc etc...
BUT, £30 extra? If it was a nominal sum, say between five and ten pounds, then one might not baulk quite so much.
It would seem from the reponses illicited here that there's pretty much a 50/50 split on whether this PRACTICE is reasonable or not, but most seem to agree that the amount is rather high.
I may be simple but I cannot reconcile having to pay EXTRA for paying up front without relinquishing control of my bank account. It's a matter of principle and this is where my thread title comes in.
The common explanation offered herin has been that the business incurs some extra admin costs and that it is ensuring a higher likelyhood of renewed membership year on year.
Well, in my tiny mind what this amounts to is a business putting its' own needs before those of its' customers and that handling cash is inconvenient. This certainly wouldn't happen in my business. I learnt long ago the meaning of the phrase "the cost of doing business"
Certainly, an efficiently run business will always look to minimise that "cost", but it should not be done in a manner that discourages business in the first place, especially new business.
By way of example:
I caught a glimpse of a computer screen at a new supplier's trade counter recently, and noticed that I was high-lighted as a "Nursery" customer, this despite only spending £20. This indicates to me that this supplier wants to make sure that my first interaction with this business is a smooth and successful one, thereby cultivating a future and hopefully prosperous relationship.
If all business are to go the way of the modern corps we all like to complain about with their off shore call centres and inflexible policies I'm sorry to say that the divide between small and large companies, and by inference rich and poor, is becoming ever more greater. The demise in the value of good old cash is lamentable and it is probably this more than anything else that is the root of my discomfort.
THE CASH IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE CASH!
I would like to say that I am not "outraged" though, just a little irritated....
Why pay £300 in the first place? It's a good question and certainly the extra 10% at this price does rather raise the eyebrows.
The club in question is a very well known and popular club (with a 1000+ members I guess that speaks for itself); lots of interesting a/c based there, excellent club house, food etc, good instructors, good selection of a/c for hire, very friendly atmosphere etc etc...
BUT, £30 extra? If it was a nominal sum, say between five and ten pounds, then one might not baulk quite so much.
It would seem from the reponses illicited here that there's pretty much a 50/50 split on whether this PRACTICE is reasonable or not, but most seem to agree that the amount is rather high.
I may be simple but I cannot reconcile having to pay EXTRA for paying up front without relinquishing control of my bank account. It's a matter of principle and this is where my thread title comes in.
The common explanation offered herin has been that the business incurs some extra admin costs and that it is ensuring a higher likelyhood of renewed membership year on year.
Well, in my tiny mind what this amounts to is a business putting its' own needs before those of its' customers and that handling cash is inconvenient. This certainly wouldn't happen in my business. I learnt long ago the meaning of the phrase "the cost of doing business"
Certainly, an efficiently run business will always look to minimise that "cost", but it should not be done in a manner that discourages business in the first place, especially new business.
By way of example:
I caught a glimpse of a computer screen at a new supplier's trade counter recently, and noticed that I was high-lighted as a "Nursery" customer, this despite only spending £20. This indicates to me that this supplier wants to make sure that my first interaction with this business is a smooth and successful one, thereby cultivating a future and hopefully prosperous relationship.
If all business are to go the way of the modern corps we all like to complain about with their off shore call centres and inflexible policies I'm sorry to say that the divide between small and large companies, and by inference rich and poor, is becoming ever more greater. The demise in the value of good old cash is lamentable and it is probably this more than anything else that is the root of my discomfort.
THE CASH IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE CASH!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
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Cash is legal tender here, too, but NOT banknotes and (in small denominations) only up to a limited amount (I can't remember the details but you can't insist on paying thousands of pounds in pennies). Pound coins are legal tender for unlimited amounts and, as in Canada, must be accepted.
However as I understand it clubs and businesses are free to offer differential pricing for different payment methods (in advance - they can't change the rules after invoicing) which makes that all a bit meaningless.
Having spent four years as a volunteer treasurer of our Common Room I sympathise with all the above comments, though we were able to collect subs through payroll which was simpler still.
Tim
PS see Legal tender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
However as I understand it clubs and businesses are free to offer differential pricing for different payment methods (in advance - they can't change the rules after invoicing) which makes that all a bit meaningless.
Having spent four years as a volunteer treasurer of our Common Room I sympathise with all the above comments, though we were able to collect subs through payroll which was simpler still.
Tim
PS see Legal tender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Woking
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After setting this discussion going I visited Lloyds Bank where the helpdesk man said that the banks have done lots of scaremongering about cheques but haven't actually worked out a sensible substitute for all those things where they're still the best thing to use. Back at the clubhouse - not too far from your very expensive one, but only £140 per year - we agreed at a meeting that cheques might be old fashioned, but they are still the best tool for the job. So - in order to belong to the club you need a cheque book, and thats that till further notice.
B
B
