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IMC
If i was to do the IMC rating in the next few months and then it was to be scrapped, would i still hold the rating or would i have wasted my money.
I understant the skills would be invaluable scrapped or unscrapped but the question has to be asked! 'sorry if its been coverd before'
I understant the skills would be invaluable scrapped or unscrapped but the question has to be asked! 'sorry if its been coverd before'
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The skills are priceless. Get it, definitely. But try to get a "modern" instructor; one who knows GPS. IFR is de facto GPS these days. The rest of the stuff one should know, for a backup and to pass the exam 
IMHO the chance of it simply being banned is under 10%.
Plus the earliest "end" date is 2012. That's an awful long time in politics (and flying ) and this issue is going to become red hot nearer the time, not least because there is zero precedent in aviation for summarily stripping a few k pilots of a relevant privilege.
IMHO the chance of it simply being banned is under 10%.
Plus the earliest "end" date is 2012. That's an awful long time in politics (and flying
) and this issue is going to become red hot nearer the time, not least because there is zero precedent in aviation for summarily stripping a few k pilots of a relevant privilege.
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IO540 is I suspect correct.
Historically, I'm not aware of a situation where people have ever been stripped of an aviation privilege without being given something else to replace it.
If that were to happen with the IMC rating, it would unleash a minor sh*t storm.
Historically, I'm not aware of a situation where people have ever been stripped of an aviation privilege without being given something else to replace it.
If that were to happen with the IMC rating, it would unleash a minor sh*t storm.
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But try to get a "modern" instructor; one who knows GPS. IFR is de facto GPS these days. The rest of the stuff one should know, for a backup and to pass the exam
GPS shouldn't be used as a primary means of navigation anyway, so its irrelevant. I would get an instructor that can teach you the ground based navaids properly and use GPS as a backup; En route use of GPS requires additional certification as does using it for approaches.
There are also a limited number of places that use GPS approved approaches, so I would get to grips with ILS, NDB and VOR approaches and leave the GPS stuff until you've passed the skill test as its not a requirement.
TJ
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TJ - I'd tend to agree. I finished my IMC at the end of last year and GPS wasn't discussed at point throughout the course. Perhaps that's because the instructor was not a "modern" instructor? Is it something that should have been touched on?
I tend to use both GPS and nav aids - GPS being much easier and nav aids being on the whole, more reliable.
I tend to use both GPS and nav aids - GPS being much easier and nav aids being on the whole, more reliable.
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The IMC course syllabus was written pre-GPS and hasn't, to my knowledge, been updated to incorporate GPS.
Having said that, if you were at a field e.g. Shoreham, that has a GPS approach and your aircraft is certified to fly GPS approaches, then it wouldn't be a 'modern' instructor that teaches an IMC course without incorporating some sort of training to enable you to fly the GPS approach.
Furthermore, GPS shouldn't be used as the primary means of navigation in non certified aircraft, and even if it is certified, I would still use cross cuts of radials and DME to confirm my position.
TJ
Having said that, if you were at a field e.g. Shoreham, that has a GPS approach and your aircraft is certified to fly GPS approaches, then it wouldn't be a 'modern' instructor that teaches an IMC course without incorporating some sort of training to enable you to fly the GPS approach.
Furthermore, GPS shouldn't be used as the primary means of navigation in non certified aircraft, and even if it is certified, I would still use cross cuts of radials and DME to confirm my position.
TJ
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Before doing my IMC rating towards the end of last year, I did quite a bit of research on this. The conclusion I came to was the same as IO540: the rating will continue to be valid until at least a date in 2012, still over 2 years away.
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GPS shouldn't be used as a primary means of navigation anyway, so its irrelevant.
GPS can and is used as a PRIMARY means of navigation. Above FL95 in a light aircraft it is pretty much the only means of meeting the BRNAV compliance.
NATS and the other European ATS providers are currently looking at turning of the conventional navigation aids in preference for BRNAV systems. Take a look at the current consultation that will see nearly half the VOR's and all of the enroute NDB's turned off in the next couple of years.
Whatever the old guard may think, GPS is here to stay and we will all have to come to grips with it as a primary means of navigation. Any Instrument pilot, IR or IMCr should be embracing current technology and any Instructor teaching for such ratings is doing the student a disservice by not teaching current technology.
The AOPA RNAV course is currently being updated to cover GPS and this can be linked to the IMCr for full credit. We tried to update the IMCr a couple of years ago but with the transition to EASA it was put on the back burner.
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The problem is that obviously from the posts on PPrune many people in the UK don't understand GPS and its capabilities or limitations so it is very hard to get proper training to use it properly. Luckily I have done a lot of flying in the USA where GPS overlay approaches exist for nearly every instrument approach and standalone GPS approaches exist for nearly every airports with an IAP.
There is nothing wrong with using traditional instruments to back up the GPS but if they didn't agree I'd tend to follow the GPS for a number of reasons.
I still think it is nuts that the departure out of Gurnsey (if memory serves me right) has one dead reckoning a ground track to ORTAC. If one has a G430 fitted, why would one DR one's way there?!?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
There is nothing wrong with using traditional instruments to back up the GPS but if they didn't agree I'd tend to follow the GPS for a number of reasons.
I still think it is nuts that the departure out of Gurnsey (if memory serves me right) has one dead reckoning a ground track to ORTAC. If one has a G430 fitted, why would one DR one's way there?!?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
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GPS shouldn't be used as a primary means of navigation anyway, so its irrelevant.
Furthermore, GPS shouldn't be used as the primary means of navigation in non certified aircraft
(as well as being totally wrong as any kind of a summary of the legal position)
The problem is that obviously from the posts on PPrune many people in the UK don't understand GPS and its capabilities or limitations so it is very hard to get proper training to use it properly.
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Not surprised with general negative attitude to GPS in UK given the fact that CAA have been casting GPS as the devil incarnate for the past decade !
We have some catching up to do so please listen carefully !
GPS Can be primary Nav above MSA and if you have the right GPS it can be primary for an approach as well. Unfortunately many of our new GPS approaches rely on conventional nav aids for the missed approach procedure (how daft) - so CAA must have decided that NDB must never be forgotten !!!
I teach IMC ratings and I teach use of GPS and if your aircraft has GPS approach capability then that as well. Call it a modern approach to IMC training for real world real aircraft operations. There are many instructors who are passing on a very rigid training syllabus that hasn't changed in donkeys years, yes pass on the old stuff but please get to grips with the new stuff as well.
We have some catching up to do so please listen carefully !
GPS Can be primary Nav above MSA and if you have the right GPS it can be primary for an approach as well. Unfortunately many of our new GPS approaches rely on conventional nav aids for the missed approach procedure (how daft) - so CAA must have decided that NDB must never be forgotten !!!
I teach IMC ratings and I teach use of GPS and if your aircraft has GPS approach capability then that as well. Call it a modern approach to IMC training for real world real aircraft operations. There are many instructors who are passing on a very rigid training syllabus that hasn't changed in donkeys years, yes pass on the old stuff but please get to grips with the new stuff as well.
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Actually, there is no concept or definition of "primary nav" in the ANO.
The ANO specifies equipment to be carried. It does not specify equipment to be used.
The only time equipment usage may be specified is on AOC ops where you fly IAW a company ops manual.
The whole business of "primary nav" (GPS being good / no good etc) comes from various pompous leaflets emanating from the CAA, or the pompous GASIL/GASCO organs which are written to appear as if they are written by the CAA
In truth, a private pilot is free to navigate with any, or any combination of, navaids, and is 100% legit to do so. Above MSA or below MSA
Above FL095, Europe, IFR, the carriage of an IFR GPS is the only acceptable (GA context) means of compliance with the BRNAV equipment carriage requirement.
The ANO specifies equipment to be carried. It does not specify equipment to be used.
The only time equipment usage may be specified is on AOC ops where you fly IAW a company ops manual.
The whole business of "primary nav" (GPS being good / no good etc) comes from various pompous leaflets emanating from the CAA, or the pompous GASIL/GASCO organs which are written to appear as if they are written by the CAA
In truth, a private pilot is free to navigate with any, or any combination of, navaids, and is 100% legit to do so. Above MSA or below MSA
Above FL095, Europe, IFR, the carriage of an IFR GPS is the only acceptable (GA context) means of compliance with the BRNAV equipment carriage requirement.
I seem to remember a previous IO540 post advocating navigating using a rubber duck in a bucket of water 
GPS is a fantastic tool, and used properly just as safe as any other navaid. Particularly in the USA, given their WAAS network (and a capable receiver)!
GPS is a fantastic tool, and used properly just as safe as any other navaid. Particularly in the USA, given their WAAS network (and a capable receiver)!
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I think a tuna sandwich (more here) is the more definitive version.
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bose-x - uneducated tosh - Really. Well I refer the honourable person to the CAA Safety Sense Leaflet entitled 'GPS' which in its opening paragraph states:
If you're using it at FL whatever it is in a light aircraft it should have been approved to BR-NAV standards which is the +/- 5nm 95% of the time. Instrument approaches require a higher standard of approval of GPS equipment.
Furthermore, my point is that a modern instructor who tells a student he can go and use his handheld GPS to fly an instrument approach or to use it as a primary means of navigation without it having been approved to do so, is not doing the student any favours.
GPS must not be relied upon as a sole navigation reference in
flight-critical applications.
flight-critical applications.
Furthermore, my point is that a modern instructor who tells a student he can go and use his handheld GPS to fly an instrument approach or to use it as a primary means of navigation without it having been approved to do so, is not doing the student any favours.
If you're using it at FL whatever it is in a light aircraft it should have been approved to BR-NAV standards which is the +/- 5nm 95% of the time. Instrument approaches require a higher standard of approval of GPS equipment.
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I refer the honourable person to the CAA Safety Sense Leaflet entitled 'GPS'
This is the problem the CAA is now facing, when they try to drag themselves kicking and screaming into the late 20th century.
For as long as I've been flying (~ 10 years) they have had various staff members (both inside and outside CAA premises) emitting their personal opinions and prejudices, in various publications, and in CAA "safety" meetings, all dressed up to look very "official".
Together with the highly deferential climate which prevails in GA (a bit like our whole society was in the 1950s and before) and the almost totally opaque ANO, this stuff has been taken as gospel by many otherwise perfectly intelligent people.
Now the CAA has a double hill to climb on GPS approaches: these need full ATC, and way over 90% of private pilots are convinced GPS is illegal, the work of the devil, etc. Most of these are long-term PPL holders who are operating outside of the PPL training scene and there is no real way to re-educate them.
In the meantime, NATS (to their credit) has got fed up with the constant stream of major CAS busts (a few hundred per year) which only by sheer luck have not yet brought down an airliner, grabbed the bull by the horns and have sponsored the production of a £150 GPS which runs a decent map.
The IMC rating was designed to allow pilots to fly IFR outside controlled airspace in their own aircraft using whatever equipment it had fitted hence there is no specific requirement to do particular approaches other than one must be pilot interpreted.
Initially there were only a few civil airfields notified in Schedule 8 that you could make approaches to but that was scrapped in 1996.
There is nothing to prevent GPS approaches being conducted as part of an IMC course, if you have the appropriate equipment and can find one.
2/3 of the course is basic IF, the remainder is being able to fly two different approaches using whatever is fitted to the aircraft. It must however cover the basic IF and limited panel and the candidate should be able to use anything fitted to the aircraft so that leaves only a small proportion of the time to cover the GPS element.
There was a committee looking at revising the syllabus to include the GPS a couple of years ago but changes were inappropriate if the rating is to cease.
EASA have said that pilots holding IMC privileges will be afforded grandfather rights until alternative arrangements are put into place. The crackpot En-route IR appears to be the first step! EASA Flight Standards: Instrument Flying
Initially there were only a few civil airfields notified in Schedule 8 that you could make approaches to but that was scrapped in 1996.
There is nothing to prevent GPS approaches being conducted as part of an IMC course, if you have the appropriate equipment and can find one.
2/3 of the course is basic IF, the remainder is being able to fly two different approaches using whatever is fitted to the aircraft. It must however cover the basic IF and limited panel and the candidate should be able to use anything fitted to the aircraft so that leaves only a small proportion of the time to cover the GPS element.
There was a committee looking at revising the syllabus to include the GPS a couple of years ago but changes were inappropriate if the rating is to cease.
EASA have said that pilots holding IMC privileges will be afforded grandfather rights until alternative arrangements are put into place. The crackpot En-route IR appears to be the first step! EASA Flight Standards: Instrument Flying