AFPEx and smartphones
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AFPEx and smartphones
Has anyone tried using the AFPEx system on a smart phone, if so which one? I am assuming there are issues with the Java download and operating system compatability.
Does anyone know if they plan to change the system to allow "normal" web based access anytime soon?
cheers
smithgd
Does anyone know if they plan to change the system to allow "normal" web based access anytime soon?
cheers
smithgd
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To the best of my knowledge, NO and NO 
If you want a normal website, use Homebriefing or EuroFPL (the latter is IFR only).
If you want a normal website, use Homebriefing or EuroFPL (the latter is IFR only).
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The iPhone is an interesting one.
If NATS (or who they purchased the system from) were to provide an AFPEx app, I wonder how many would be willing to pay for it (I know I certainly would).
If NATS (or who they purchased the system from) were to provide an AFPEx app, I wonder how many would be willing to pay for it (I know I certainly would).
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It would be great if iPhone had an app - our local NATS agency are wanting us to book out using AFPEx instead of phoning. They're introducing electronic flight strips and less humans to answer the phone 
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NATS in Glasgow and Edinburgh are moving over to the electronic stuff in the next month or so.
iPhone app would be ideal - especially for those operating out of farm strips, such are common in Scotland due to the lack of airfields!
Raised the idea of uses for the iPhone etc at a recent CAA Safety Evening, but it drew only slightly negative (I think the negativity was about ALL mobiles) from the presenter.
To me, for VFR sport flight, the iPhone and its likes are undersung - if not vital - safety aids.
We had a twin-turbine heli land at Strathaven the other day because of a PTT problem. Could hear Glasgow but not transmit. A mobile might have made things a bit easier.
And I have had constant weather checks from Strathaven by text message in the air while trying to get through from Carlisle.
iPhone app would be ideal - especially for those operating out of farm strips, such are common in Scotland due to the lack of airfields!
Raised the idea of uses for the iPhone etc at a recent CAA Safety Evening, but it drew only slightly negative (I think the negativity was about ALL mobiles) from the presenter.
To me, for VFR sport flight, the iPhone and its likes are undersung - if not vital - safety aids.
We had a twin-turbine heli land at Strathaven the other day because of a PTT problem. Could hear Glasgow but not transmit. A mobile might have made things a bit easier.
And I have had constant weather checks from Strathaven by text message in the air while trying to get through from Carlisle.
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iPhone app would be ideal - especially for those operating out of farm strips
You may well get a GSM (voice calls, SMS) signal, which generally means you will also get a GPRS (slow internet, c. 20k bits/sec) service.
But 3G (faster internet, c. 500k bits/sec) is poorly served away from the metropolitan areas and major roads - everywhere in Europe. AFPEx works OK on GPRS but every so often they force a download of the whole Java application (presumably because they have changed it) and then you are stuffed if you have only GPRS; the download is about half an hour and often breaks...
Caching the application may work, in the same way that it may work on a windoze laptop. I have still not been able to determine the best procedure for this; with my laptop I make sure I refresh the Java application shortly before a trip, and use Hibernation thereafter. And if I am away, on GPRS at £7.50/MB
and I get hit with the download, I kill it and use EuroFPL or Homebriefing instead Sadly, HB have b*ggered their website with tons of graphics recently, which is a shame as HB is the only non-AFPEx method for electronic VFR FP filing. EuroFPL does only IFR (and only if you pre-validate the route; the 'reroute accepted' thingy cannot be used) but that's OK for me since I fly almost only IFR when going abroad, and always a pre-validated route. But it's not a solution for some 99% of UK PPLs, many of whom (IMHO) are too stingy to pay 4 euros to HB I still run a HB account but with the combination of AFPEx and EuroFPL have not used it since last June.The funniest/saddest thing is that when you file a VFR FP via HB, they don't file it to the AFTN; they merely forward it to the departure ARO where - in the UK - some poor sod has to address it and type it in manually with...... AFPEx
IMHO, if AFPEx want to cater for mobile users properly (not just some phone app but mobile internet generally) they need to run a documented update schedule so that e.g. the application is guaranteed to not get updated except on the 5th of each month, and the previous (assume: Hibernated/cached) version is guaranteed to work until the 10th of the same month. This is really basic stuff....
Yesterday I met a bloke who has been in the airport services business for decades - quite a big company - and they tried to sell electronic flight plan filing solutions to UK ATC for many years, and always got rebuffed on obviously spurious grounds. This business has been wrapped up in job preservation politics from day 1.
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Full house then with Aberdeen! Have they arranged with you what/how/when etc cos despite asking think our lot are not coping well and have yet to meet with us. 
Date now slipped to May/June.
We in the frozen north would be interested to hear what's happening further south.
NATS in Glasgow and Edinburgh are moving over to the electronic stuff in the next month or so.
Date now slipped to May/June.
We in the frozen north would be interested to hear what's happening further south.
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IO540 - you're missing the point of an iphone app. Why would you need 3G at the strip? f the app had everything built in and just validated / sent the FPL you'd need less bandwidth than any other FPL app you can think of (HB,EuroFPL etc)
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That's impossible.
It's too obvious.
It can't be done.
Why? The computer says NO.
But seriously: the team at AFPEx are technically very good (I've met some of them) but ISTM that the major software is bought-in, and IMHO there is nil chance of anybody there being able to make the required financial case for spending (probably) 6 digits on software development.
You could achieve what you want (as you of course know, given your job) by setting up a web (or whatever) gateway on some IP, and having a bit of software running on that which interacts with a real AFPEx application, sufficiently to file a flight plan and maybe (for strip flyers) to also file the DEP message, but then somebody will want to support the cancel message, then somebody will want to support the free text, and then.........
Anyway, I know somebody who could knock up a simple proxy like that for a few k. It would prob99 be in breach of the AFPEx Ts & Cs though.
You could even file it via an SMS message. The protocol between the phone and the server is up to you, of course.
My guess is that EuroFPL would be the people to talk to about this kind of thing.
That is, after somebody has solved the issue of VFR addressing; which could be awfully fiddly if done manually on a phone. This could be done by the phone app, by walking the filed route and picking off the FIRs, then applying the special cases. Not completely trivial but possible.
Nobody is going to do this for free though.
It's too obvious.
It can't be done.
Why? The computer says NO.
But seriously: the team at AFPEx are technically very good (I've met some of them) but ISTM that the major software is bought-in, and IMHO there is nil chance of anybody there being able to make the required financial case for spending (probably) 6 digits on software development.
You could achieve what you want (as you of course know, given your job) by setting up a web (or whatever) gateway on some IP, and having a bit of software running on that which interacts with a real AFPEx application, sufficiently to file a flight plan and maybe (for strip flyers) to also file the DEP message, but then somebody will want to support the cancel message, then somebody will want to support the free text, and then.........
Anyway, I know somebody who could knock up a simple proxy like that for a few k. It would prob99 be in breach of the AFPEx Ts & Cs though.
You could even file it via an SMS message. The protocol between the phone and the server is up to you, of course.
My guess is that EuroFPL would be the people to talk to about this kind of thing.
That is, after somebody has solved the issue of VFR addressing; which could be awfully fiddly if done manually on a phone. This could be done by the phone app, by walking the filed route and picking off the FIRs, then applying the special cases. Not completely trivial but possible.
Nobody is going to do this for free though.
Last edited by IO540; 20th Feb 2010 at 07:08.
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I am not sure it would be that complex to develop an iPhone app. The beauty of the iPhone is it is a proper development environment rather than trying to achieve some tie up through html. A simple gateway into the AFPEx system through an app that can provide the required level of security might be an option.
We are developing an app for the ipad/iphone that will display IAP, it might be worth talking to the NATS guys and seeing if there is anything that can be done. I will report back!
We are developing an app for the ipad/iphone that will display IAP, it might be worth talking to the NATS guys and seeing if there is anything that can be done. I will report back!
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IMHO nobody is going to devote significant resources to writing an Iphone app for flight plan filing.
Very few pilots have Iphones and only the most fashion conscious or expense-funded people carry one - given the ludicrous cost of the contract.
Most heavy business GSM users have Blackberry type devices.
If any effort is to go into R&D it should be a simple HTTP submit form for the ICAO flight plan form. Then everybody with mobile internet can use it.
And EuroFPL delivers that already - for pre-validated IFR flight plans.
The real trick is doing it for VFR flight plans - "somebody" has to solve the addressing issue because one cannot really imagine a "phone" user typing in a string of EGxxxxxx addresses (and where is he going to find them anyway, if all he has on him is the phone?).
So - to rephrase... the challenge is not really in developing a web form for efficient FP filing. It's already been done. The bigger challenge is to solve the VFR addressing issue, and solve it for free because 90%+ of UK PPLs will not want to pay for a service.
Homebriefing could no doubt knock up a simple 320x240 web form for FP filing, but a) few UK PPLs would pay 4 euros per FP and b) the resulting VFR FP would anyway be merely forwarded to the very same airfield where they told you to use AFPEx in the first place
Very few pilots have Iphones and only the most fashion conscious or expense-funded people carry one - given the ludicrous cost of the contract.
Most heavy business GSM users have Blackberry type devices.
If any effort is to go into R&D it should be a simple HTTP submit form for the ICAO flight plan form. Then everybody with mobile internet can use it.
And EuroFPL delivers that already - for pre-validated IFR flight plans.
The real trick is doing it for VFR flight plans - "somebody" has to solve the addressing issue because one cannot really imagine a "phone" user typing in a string of EGxxxxxx addresses (and where is he going to find them anyway, if all he has on him is the phone?).
So - to rephrase... the challenge is not really in developing a web form for efficient FP filing. It's already been done. The bigger challenge is to solve the VFR addressing issue, and solve it for free because 90%+ of UK PPLs will not want to pay for a service.
Homebriefing could no doubt knock up a simple 320x240 web form for FP filing, but a) few UK PPLs would pay 4 euros per FP and b) the resulting VFR FP would anyway be merely forwarded to the very same airfield where they told you to use AFPEx in the first place
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An option that I have explored is the Logmein 'app' for the Iphone. With this, I log on to the laptop at home, which has a stable, speedy internet connection. That way if the Afpex system needs a large update, it can be done at speed. Also if the connection to the phone is lost, everything remains on the laptop which you are controlling remotely, until you reconnect.
This is not ideal, but it is a workaround.
This is not ideal, but it is a workaround.
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Spot on - that is the "remote desktop" way of doing it.
One can use
- pc/anywhere
- windoze remote desktop / terminal services
- citrix
- loads of others e.g. this
I have only ever tried the first one (PCA) and it doesn't really work with the Java app. Windows' own remote desktop would be the next one to try - has anybody done it?
Mind you, any kind of remote desktop is IME not really usable over GPRS. It works but it is really slow. You need 3G.
One can use
- pc/anywhere
- windoze remote desktop / terminal services
- citrix
- loads of others e.g. this
I have only ever tried the first one (PCA) and it doesn't really work with the Java app. Windows' own remote desktop would be the next one to try - has anybody done it?
Mind you, any kind of remote desktop is IME not really usable over GPRS. It works but it is really slow. You need 3G.
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So what about the Blackberry, has anyone tried AFPEx on that?
I assume accessing the other usual pre flight stuff is ok on any smartphone since they are all normal web pages?
cheers
smithgd
I assume accessing the other usual pre flight stuff is ok on any smartphone since they are all normal web pages?
cheers
smithgd
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AFPEx is not a website - it is a client-side Java application of about 3MB in size. AFAIK no current "phone" device runs it. The Ipad might perhaps???
In general, www-capable phones can access most normal websites but there are occassional issues because these browsers are not quite Internet Explorer compatible.
I have a pocket/pc PDA (Fuji LOOX N560) on on that I have Pocket Explorer and Opera; one works on some sites and the other works on some others That said, pocket/pc is crap anyway and I am sure the more modern stuff like the Iphone are a lot more compatible.
My Nokia E51 runs most small aviation weather sites OK, but the panning is painful at times, so I use it for tafs/metars only.
IMHO, preflight stuff needs a laptop. Can be a very small one but anything smaller than a laptop is just painful. Unless one is happy to skip some steps, like getting notams
In general, www-capable phones can access most normal websites but there are occassional issues because these browsers are not quite Internet Explorer compatible.
I have a pocket/pc PDA (Fuji LOOX N560) on on that I have Pocket Explorer and Opera; one works on some sites and the other works on some others
That said, pocket/pc is crap anyway and I am sure the more modern stuff like the Iphone are a lot more compatible.My Nokia E51 runs most small aviation weather sites OK, but the panning is painful at times, so I use it for tafs/metars only.
IMHO, preflight stuff needs a laptop. Can be a very small one but anything smaller than a laptop is just painful. Unless one is happy to skip some steps, like getting notams
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Couldn't this easily be solved by having the Java app as a one time download. The actual volume of data sent from client to server is pretty low AFAIK. Many "smartphones" run Java these days.....
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After being a every-time download for about a year, the AFPEx Java app is now a one-time download.
Except they update it every so often, and then you get the whole 3.5MB coming down your PAYG connection when you are abroad
Except they update it every so often, and then you get the whole 3.5MB coming down your PAYG connection when you are abroad
