FAA IR in private turboprop airplane

[winguru]

Hey guys lets see if i can get any reliable info on this, so i can work a way around.

Lets say a validated faa private, wants to get a ir rating in the plane he just bought wich happens to be a turboprop single engine, 6 seats, complex, high performance.

He completed bfr, got a complex and high performance endorsment, and wants to hire a instructor who is a airline pilot and faa examiner, never flew the airplane but its not a problem, he can fly it with no problem.

Now this would be done in FAA land, this means you need a visa and a tsa.

Is this possible at all, the guy has a student visa for a flight school, but no tsa, yet.

Will it be possible to get a TSA on a turboprop, do the ir rating with the school instructor/faa examiner (so you are linked to the student visa).

And be able to do all this without a instruction insurance, i dont think anyone will insure the instructor, because he doesnt have any hours on type.
The plane will have all documents, i just dont know if the faa asks it to be insured for instruction also.

Thank you

[youngskywalker]

So who would be insured?! The student won't have any hours on type either! Sounds a bit dodgy to me!

[S-Works]

When you say a 'validated' rating do you mean a 61.75 certificate?

If you have a 61.75 certificate based on a JAA licence, and you want to fly a type that requires a type rating (all turboprops require a TR under JAR) then you will need the type on the underlying licence as well.

[winguru]

not a jar ppl

and the intention is to get a standalone faa ir in turboprop

If no insurance is required then uninsured shall it be, my life is worth more.
Im not aware of insurance in usa, in another country, its in the owner name, either he is a pilot or not, he his responsable for the acft, and determines who flys it. For example if he has freelance pilots, they wont have a chance of havin insurance, for his acft.

FAA im not aware

[S-Works]

and the intention is to get a standalone faa ir in turboprop

You will need a standalone private certificate as well. You cant fly an aircraft that requires a type rating on the underlying licence on a 61.75 certificate.

Do you have a 61.75 certificate based on an ICAO licence? If so what is the underlying ICAO licence?

[IO540]

I cannot see why one could not do a standalone FAA PPL/IR in a turboprop.

Under 12500lb, no Type Rating is required under FAA rules unless specifically required (any such cases?) or it is a turboJET which this isn't.

The practicalities will be something else. One would start flying on a U.S. Student Pilot Certificate and one's solo flights would be done on that. Legalities aside, I would do some serious "due diligence" before going down this route because one could find not many instructors / schools are willing to do this.

However, in the USA, one can do one's PPL/IR (or even an ATP) totally with freelance instructors and examiners, and that would probably be the preferred route in this case. OTOH that isn't going to be so easy to arrange for a European going to the USA, where he starts off knowing exactly nobody...

Here in the UK, I looked into (for no particular reason) the possibility of doing a PPL in a TB20 (a "complex" piston single!) and no school would touch it with a bargepole. OTOH there are schools elsewhere in the world which teach the PPL in TB20s, and there is nothing difficult about it.

Practically, there is going to be a helluva learning curve compared to doing it in a Cessna 150

[172driver]

Other than the issue of underlying TR, there is an outfit in Switzerland and France who do exactly what you want, if I understand your Q correctly. It was mentioned in a different thread here recently, check this out.

[mm_flynn]

I don't believe (but haven't recently checked) there is any mandatory insurance requirement in the USA for private aircraft operation. HOWEVER, the USA is the litigation capital of the world, so operating an uninsured expensive aircraft would be madness. Also anyone who has an interest in the aircraft (i.e. the trust company, lender, etc.) will certainly demand insurance.

The insurance company will almost certainly demand a high minimum PIC time, a type specific course (i.e. FlightSafety type course) and a certain minimum number of hours supervised by a pilot (could be instructor or 'just' an ATPL with significant time on type). This is one of the reasons a type rating is less important in the US - you wind up with nearly the same training due to the insurance requirements!

[englishal]

Under 12500lb

Under 12501 lbs

You could probably do most of the training for the PPL & IR in the TP but I don't reckon you'd be able to do the solo elements. I guess you could insure your ATPL mate as PIC and he could carry out the dual training no problem. As pointed out though you are restricted to the JAA (or other ICAO) license privileges if using an FAA "based on" as the basis and if the other place requires a type rating, then I assume you'd need one too.

I'd just do the FAA PPL flight test first in say a PA28/ Cirrus or something, then once you have that you can fly the SET as PIC and do the IR.

INsurance...hmm...tricky. You'd probably get it if doing a certain amount dual in the aeroplane, or a Factory FITS Training course , but it may cost a lot. what is this Turbo Prop?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Winguru. If the owner has enough money to buy a personal T-Prop, than he or she has enough money to do the training properly. As I understand from your first post the owner allready has an FAA PPL and wants to do the IR and type training. All the insurance issues go away if you send the high time guy you want to do the instruction to SIMCOM or FS to do the Type course, pay for 10 hours or so of LOE for him with a instructor with lots of time on type and then he can start the training of the PPL. For this catagory of aircraft proper type training, including simulator training, is not optional, if you are to truely understand the aircraft and how to properly fly it.

[winguru]

Hi,

Its possible, the plane doesnt need a type, you just need a complex and high performance endorsment.

Pilot is low time, faa ppl, and just wants to get the ir in a TP.

The plane is not going to be flying in US, its being taken to a foreign country, and being flown there with a PP/IR in FAA registry until its passed to national.

Contacted flightschoool, main issue is insurance for training. I think that if a instructor is insurance aprooved, wich they are, why the pilot in training should also need to have a insurance. The instructor is the person responsible.

Has the plane is not bought yet, probably we can get a insurance in the instructor name, that allows him to fly it in USA and that allows him to instruct.

So now we would have a pilot(the instructor) that is able to ferry while in USA and instruct, and who is student doesnt matter.

After the instrument rating, "student" his ready to ferry it, the owner coming along, outside of US land, no insurance needed.

Now to get insurance with foreign country is another deal.

[mm_flynn]

Lets see if we have the facts straight

1. The aircraft is going to be purchased in the US
2. It is going to be purchased by - A US Citizen? A Trust? A US Corp?
3. The pilot is a low time FAA PPL (and is also the 'owner')
4. The aircraft will be moved to another country (and then eventually re-registered) after the owner/'pilot' gets his IR
5. The training organisation requires the aircraft to be insured?
6. The insurance company has agreed to insure the instructor as pilot and to use the aircraft for training of others

Overall this seems like a bad idea from an owner/pilot with more money than sense.

Get an IR in a 'simple' complex aircraft (ie. injected, retractable gear, variable pitch) so you are going slow, not spending too much money while learning the art of instrument flying. Then go to FlightSafety or SimCom and learn how to fly the turbine and get used to the issues of icing, FL250 descents, higher speeds, the value of Beta, maybe even pressurisation.

[winguru]

Forgot to mention, found a "executive" flighschool, wich has flight instructor, that is insured for meridian, so should be good for insurance, for visas (that require the instrument rating to be in the school, where your current i20 is) and for TSA

2 - Purchase by foreign

The foreing pilot knows how to fly instrument, doesnt have a rating though,
The instructor has alot of hours in meridians.

Idea is to combine both.
Giving experience hours in the airplane, a instrument rating, and all the diferences training (pressurization, icing)

FS and SIMCom very good, but not the only way to learn

Also its not that much diference to do the instrument in the private TP airplane than a cirrus, and the cirrus wont make you ready to fly the TP.

Seems fine for me.

Might consider going to FS or SIMCOM before the IR training. For diferences training. If instructor feels its better to do so.

[mm_flynn]

I think you biggest problem is going to be buying the aircraft! I am pretty sure it is not possible for a non-resident foreigner to own directly an N-reg aircraft.

I seriously doubt a low time PPL 'knows how to fly instruments' - unless you have forgotten to tell us that he has high time on his Air Force ticket and has just recently applied for his PPL.

However, if he does actually know how to fly instruments, that would imply he has some logged time and some instruction. If he is just knocking off the rating 15 hours instruction in a 172 and the test and its job done for maybe $2000. You may even be able to get by with only 3 hours (depending on the qualifications of the person who did the original instructing).

If your instructor is a high time Meridian pilot and an instructor, then there should be only a limited issue getting insurance. Sometimes people find it a hassle to get US insurance if they are not resident (and you typically will have to buy a years cover and then cancel it after 6 months). It may also be a bit of a challenge to get insurance to instruct for two non-resident pilots

[IO540]

I am pretty sure it is not possible for a non-resident foreigner to own directly an N-reg aircraft.

I am sure anyone can own an N-reg airframe.

He just can't fly it because the CofA is invalid

So, basically, he can sit in the cockpit, connect up external power, and play with the knobs

And any half decent turboprop will have more than a few knobs

[winguru]

Hum, let me understand something

You are saying that a foreign that buys a N aircraft for private use wont get a certificate of airworthiness (CofA)?

Enligten me please

[mm_flynn]

To register an aircraft on the American registry the aircraft owner must be either a US Citizen (natural person, body corporate, trust) or a Resident Alien (or technically a foreign controlled corporation if the aircraft spends 60% of its flight hours per year in the US and the foreign corporation lodges a declaration to that effect - but this is not relevant to you).

An un-registered aircraft is not legally airworthy.

Ergo, as IO said you can't legally operate (or as I said, you can't own it) depending on your perspective.

Which is why I asked who was buying it - on the assumption it was not going to be just some dodgy mates but a reasonably defined structure - that would not take unreasonable risks with their airplane - because as a foreigner operating on the US reg - it is not your airplane (you may be the beneficial owner but not the actual owner).

[englishal]

If the FAA PPL is a FULL PPL, i.e. not based on a foreign one, then no Type Rating required. If someone will insure you to fly it then it can be flown VFR by the low houred PPL (assuming complex, high performance and high altitude endorsements are signed off). If instructor instructing the owner in own aircraft, e.g. carry out IR training, conversion training, you name it, no problem. You don't need special "FBO" insurance to have an instructor train you in your own aeroplane - many insurance policies cover "instructors" anyway, mine does, so I can just pick up an FI and say "train me" and they are automatically covered. You could name them on the policy if you wanted too...

Would be a good way to train to do it on a ferry flight somewhere.

Do Piper do a factory training course? That might ease insurance

[winguru]

probably i made you think i was going to register it in USA, and then do IR rating

The picture is:

1 - Aircraft will be bought in USA with a N reg.
I dont see any problem with this.

EU citizens, that are not USA citizens, buy aircraft in USA and have them in Europe, and has CofA, insurance and everything.
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2 - After being bought, pilot needs training on it, and FAA IR Rating. By this time will have FAA PPL standalone, in c172 for example. (flight test, and writen , medical needed, based on validation)

Then wants to combine both diference training with a FAA IR rating.
Already has IR experience, should make it in minimuns

And has JAA ATPL theory, and other foreign CPL/IR theory. Wich both are superior to FAA IR theory.
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3 - Is finding as school with instructor that has meridian experience, that can foreign students, TSA aproval.

Insurance, will have to be in instructor name, foreign owner (non - pilot) and foreign pilot dont qualify.

After having time in the plane in the meridian, diferences training, and a IR rating, still wont meet US insurance requierements to fly in USA, due to low PIC time.

By this time is leaving USA dont need no more insurance for USA

Being capable of flying IFR, will fly it to foreign country, keep flying it there with N reg until it changes to national foreign.
Foreign insurance will insure aircraft, in national soil.

So the only time it will be without insurance, is if the foreign insurance wont cover the ferry flight, depending on the owner it will have a meridian ferry pilot to meet ferry flight FAA insurance requirements

Correct me and some advice

EDIT: thats the idea, in the ferry flights in USA try go get most of diferences and IR training, (before picking up the airplane will have sim sessions, to review the aproaches, has part of ir syllabus), and , then just the remaining IR syllabus requirements in the flight school airport.

Owner might want to do some USA tourism flying, it can count towards the rating also, although im not shure if he wants to fly to canada or caribbean with will count has ir rating training

[IO540]

An N-reg has to be continuously owned by a US citizen.