Why can't PPL holders charge for their services?
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They are my guest, that is my "common courtesy". They can offer of course, but I would never expect it or accept it.
AFAIK, SEPs are used for "sight seeing" and there is no reason for them not to be used for other revenue earning work under the appropriate licensing and certification.
What I think the CAA is opposed to is single engined, single pilot passenger carrying IFR, such as might be done in a Cessna Caravan.
What I think the CAA is opposed to is single engined, single pilot passenger carrying IFR, such as might be done in a Cessna Caravan.
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A couple of points.
1 - I don't believe any type of motorised transport operation carried out for Hire and Reward (i.e. you are paid to do it) is allowed on a basic licence. There is always extra qualification. While a mini-cab driver doesn't need to pass an additional driving test, they and their vehicles are additionally licenced. (I believe there are successful prosecutions of people with basic driving licences driving licenced minicabs even when the minicab was off duty). In aviation, it works the same. You need additional training (mostly in knowledge) to be paid to operate an aircraft. This type of operation would be photography, pipeline patrol, traffic spotting, etc. (i.e. no passengers of freight being carried)
2 - To carry passengers or freight for gain (i.e. Public Transport), not only does the pilot need to be trained (a CPL) but the aircraft must be maintained to a specified (higher) standard and operated within a structure designed to ensure a higher level of safety (an AOC). Not withstanding any views about the AOC just being a piece of paper, the facts would suggest that AOC operations have a substantially lower accident rate than private ops.
3 - The 'trial lesson' structure is sometimes used to get around what would be an requirement to have an AOC if undertaking a pleasure flight. the logic is, you have chosen to give flying a go (you personally flying the aircraft) you know it is not a commercial flight with the service and safety you would expect - therefore complying with the full details of an AOC is unnecessary.
The whole purpose of the law is so ordinary people, who have no real knowledge of the risks and decision processes involved in running air transport are 'guaranteed' a safety standard that is comparable to what they would expect from any other form of public transport (i.e. very safe) and do not need to undertake their own due diligence. The law assumes pilots, flying club members and their invited friends have sufficient understanding of the risks, aircraft, and pilot experience to make these judgements on their own - and due to the lack of any payment, understand the operation has no guarantee of any given level of safety.
1 - I don't believe any type of motorised transport operation carried out for Hire and Reward (i.e. you are paid to do it) is allowed on a basic licence. There is always extra qualification. While a mini-cab driver doesn't need to pass an additional driving test, they and their vehicles are additionally licenced. (I believe there are successful prosecutions of people with basic driving licences driving licenced minicabs even when the minicab was off duty). In aviation, it works the same. You need additional training (mostly in knowledge) to be paid to operate an aircraft. This type of operation would be photography, pipeline patrol, traffic spotting, etc. (i.e. no passengers of freight being carried)
2 - To carry passengers or freight for gain (i.e. Public Transport), not only does the pilot need to be trained (a CPL) but the aircraft must be maintained to a specified (higher) standard and operated within a structure designed to ensure a higher level of safety (an AOC). Not withstanding any views about the AOC just being a piece of paper, the facts would suggest that AOC operations have a substantially lower accident rate than private ops.
3 - The 'trial lesson' structure is sometimes used to get around what would be an requirement to have an AOC if undertaking a pleasure flight. the logic is, you have chosen to give flying a go (you personally flying the aircraft) you know it is not a commercial flight with the service and safety you would expect - therefore complying with the full details of an AOC is unnecessary.
The whole purpose of the law is so ordinary people, who have no real knowledge of the risks and decision processes involved in running air transport are 'guaranteed' a safety standard that is comparable to what they would expect from any other form of public transport (i.e. very safe) and do not need to undertake their own due diligence. The law assumes pilots, flying club members and their invited friends have sufficient understanding of the risks, aircraft, and pilot experience to make these judgements on their own - and due to the lack of any payment, understand the operation has no guarantee of any given level of safety.
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Dublinpilot
You have just proved the fact that half of the people on pprune post and don't know a thing about the industry.
Why post if you don't have a clue, don't take in personally but it happens all the time on this site and it detracts from often a sensible debate.
IMHO its just happening to much lately.
You have just proved the fact that half of the people on pprune post and don't know a thing about the industry.
Why post if you don't have a clue, don't take in personally but it happens all the time on this site and it detracts from often a sensible debate.
IMHO its just happening to much lately.
Useful CAA leaflet.
In the meantime, even those correcting incorrect posts may miss something. ANO 2009, schedule 8 allows a CPL holder to fly as pilot in command of any flight except a multi-crew public transport flight - so a multi-crew aerial work, private, positioning or test flight would be fine, as of-course is a single pilot public transport fly. There is a further restriction mind you - without an IR, a CPL holder can't fly public transport in aeroplanes above 2300kg unless the take-off and landings are no more than 25nm apart.
There are a few loopholes - for example there's no microlight CPL, so almost all microlight instructors (under a CAA exemption) are quite legally paid to fly with PPLs. CAA itself allows its own staff to fly on business so long as they hold an IMC (the latter being an internal requirement, not a legal one). Many BMAA and LAA member/PPL holders regularly conduct test flying which technically is an aerial work activity, again with CAA issued exemptions allowing this.
G
In the meantime, even those correcting incorrect posts may miss something. ANO 2009, schedule 8 allows a CPL holder to fly as pilot in command of any flight except a multi-crew public transport flight - so a multi-crew aerial work, private, positioning or test flight would be fine, as of-course is a single pilot public transport fly. There is a further restriction mind you - without an IR, a CPL holder can't fly public transport in aeroplanes above 2300kg unless the take-off and landings are no more than 25nm apart.
There are a few loopholes - for example there's no microlight CPL, so almost all microlight instructors (under a CAA exemption) are quite legally paid to fly with PPLs. CAA itself allows its own staff to fly on business so long as they hold an IMC (the latter being an internal requirement, not a legal one). Many BMAA and LAA member/PPL holders regularly conduct test flying which technically is an aerial work activity, again with CAA issued exemptions allowing this.
G
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Originally Posted by Bla Bla Bla
Dublinpilot
You have just proved the fact that half of the people on PPRuNe post and don't know a thing about the industry.
Why post if you don't have a clue, don't take in personally but it happens all the time on this site and it detracts from often a sensible debate.
IMHO its just happening to much lately.
You have just proved the fact that half of the people on PPRuNe post and don't know a thing about the industry.
Why post if you don't have a clue, don't take in personally but it happens all the time on this site and it detracts from often a sensible debate.
IMHO its just happening to much lately.
When it was pointed out that my knowledge was incorrect, I acknowledged that and learnt from it.
If people who honestly believe that they know something aren't allowed to post that, in case they might be wrong, then Pprune would not be here for very long.
Avoid imitations
This document lays down the UK regulations.
Para 5.3 (cost sharing) is relevent to the original question.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/122/summar..._transport.pdf
A breach of these regulations also implicates the owner / operator of the aircraft as the insurance will be invalidated.
Para 5.3 (cost sharing) is relevent to the original question.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/122/summar..._transport.pdf
A breach of these regulations also implicates the owner / operator of the aircraft as the insurance will be invalidated.
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What is the actual reasoning behind this?
Human nature is such that when remuneration is involved ambition and greed WILL override all other considerations. In common with most laws these restrictions are "designed" to protect the many from the few for the greater good.
From a pragmatic perspective it's not worth the hassle mate. For reasons already stated in this thread - if you go much further than BEagle and others state your fare paying 'passengers' WILL at some point drop you right in it when they start moaning, refusing to pay up or turn nasty demanding their rights WHEN you screw up or are subject to some sort of 'misunderstanding' over your presumably non existent terms of service.
Canada
Here in Canada, the regulatory structure is similar; however the bush operators are pretty much left a free hand. Some are conscientious; others less so and the accident rates reflect that.
Max Ward started out as a bush operator and distinguished himself by never losing a single passenger
Eventually he closed down his bush operation because it could not compete against the corner cutters
Max Ward started out as a bush operator and distinguished himself by never losing a single passenger
Eventually he closed down his bush operation because it could not compete against the corner cutters
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"if I ask a mate to take me up in their aircraft for a spin I would be paying a lot more than 50%."
Too damned right!!! It would probably be your life!!
Too damned right!!! It would probably be your life!!
On the other hand, I remember reading somewhere that if you were in the USA and have an FAA PPL then you are allowed to fly around an MP (or Senators as they call them) and recieve payment. I dont remember the full details but hoping someone Stateside can come up with facts.
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The Optimist;
There is another very good reason for PPLs not to fly paying passengers, their own safety.
Many of us on here hold CPLs/ATPLs and have thousands of hours and years of training and experience. I fly fixed wing and rotary for my living, recently in the rotary world there have been occasions when helicopter pilots have discovered that the paying customers of one pilot have been flown by a PPL who thinks he has been terrribly clever. The reports to the CAA have had little effect, a strong punch in the mouth and half a dozen very angry helo pilots pointing out the error of his ways seems more effective.
To any PPL who wants to share costs, thats great go ahead and do it, I cost share on lots of private flights with mates in our own aircraft. Cross the line and put passengers at risk and expect your world to become a very uncomfortable place if you are caught. For one thing your pax aren't insured because your flight is illegal, as one poster correctly stated you may be encouraged to fly beyond your limits, and the PPL is a very basic licence.
Cost share on an agreed basis and enjoy the flight. Charge and the pressure comes on heavily, the passengers expect you to perform when you may not be able to.
The CAA issue a very good leaflet on whether a flight is legal. It is aimed at passengers but is well worth a read by pilots too.
There is another very good reason for PPLs not to fly paying passengers, their own safety.
Many of us on here hold CPLs/ATPLs and have thousands of hours and years of training and experience. I fly fixed wing and rotary for my living, recently in the rotary world there have been occasions when helicopter pilots have discovered that the paying customers of one pilot have been flown by a PPL who thinks he has been terrribly clever. The reports to the CAA have had little effect, a strong punch in the mouth and half a dozen very angry helo pilots pointing out the error of his ways seems more effective.
To any PPL who wants to share costs, thats great go ahead and do it, I cost share on lots of private flights with mates in our own aircraft. Cross the line and put passengers at risk and expect your world to become a very uncomfortable place if you are caught. For one thing your pax aren't insured because your flight is illegal, as one poster correctly stated you may be encouraged to fly beyond your limits, and the PPL is a very basic licence.
Cost share on an agreed basis and enjoy the flight. Charge and the pressure comes on heavily, the passengers expect you to perform when you may not be able to.
The CAA issue a very good leaflet on whether a flight is legal. It is aimed at passengers but is well worth a read by pilots too.
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A very interesting thread
I've been flying passengers for many years on my PPL and occasionally received some cost sharing funds in return - not sure if the beers or rounds of bacon butties count as a benefit though.
What seems odd is that we can perfectly well fly people as long as we don't benefit. I take the view that I intend to corrupt as many people as possible into taking up the sinful activity of recreational flying and I take that task very seriously whether or not I get financial help.
I don't take particularly seriously the view that because I am not an instructor I am automatically putting my passengers lives at risk. I have more hours and experience than some of the junior instructors I've flown with.
I've been flying passengers for many years on my PPL and occasionally received some cost sharing funds in return - not sure if the beers or rounds of bacon butties count as a benefit though.
What seems odd is that we can perfectly well fly people as long as we don't benefit. I take the view that I intend to corrupt as many people as possible into taking up the sinful activity of recreational flying and I take that task very seriously whether or not I get financial help.
I don't take particularly seriously the view that because I am not an instructor I am automatically putting my passengers lives at risk. I have more hours and experience than some of the junior instructors I've flown with.
The Original Whirly
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I believe the original point was that taking friends flying with a basic PPL is legal, but if they pay more than their share it becomes illegal, and that this is illogical. Yes, it is. Personally, I can't think of a good reason for it. But it does happen to be the law. And if you choose to break that law, that's your business, as with any other law. End of story. I don't see how this thread has run to two pages...but that's PPRuNe for you.
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I believe the original point was that taking friends flying with a basic PPL is legal, but if they pay more than their share it becomes illegal, and that this is illogical. Yes, it is.
A line needs to be drawn somewhere. If the pax pay their share, then it's just a joint jolly. If they pay all the costs (plus a "drink" for the pilot), then it becomes indistinguishable from a charter. So where do you draw the line? It's reasonable if two business associates are going off to a distant meeting, one has a PPL and decides he's going to fly. His colleague decides to come too, and offers to share the cost. Nobody is benefitting. But there comes a grey area in the middle. How much more than "his share" can he pay without it being a charter? Somewhere, I would suggest, between £(Cost/2)+1 and £(Cost-1). The line is, I suggest, therefore logically in the right place.
Public transport needs to be subject to oversight and therefore legislation and licensing, for the public's safety and financial safeguards against operators going bust. Hence the requirements for AOCs and ATOLs. Hence the higher requirements of licensing and recurrent checking and medicals for pilots conducting such flights.
Not only do the public need to be protected against the wiles of the pirates illegal public transport operators. So do legitimate businesses who incur significant costs in ensuring their aircraft are suitably maintained, pilots are trained, checked and medicalled (??), their duty hours within safe and legal limits and the whole caboosh is insured.
Therefore like, I suspect, a lot of commercially-qualified pilots, I would have no hesitation whatsoever in shopping anyone conducting illegal public transport.
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Dublinpilot
You have just proved the fact that half of the people on pprune post and don't know a thing about the industry.
Why post if you don't have a clue, don't take in personally but it happens all the time on this site and it detracts from often a sensible debate.
IMHO its just happening to much lately.
You have just proved the fact that half of the people on pprune post and don't know a thing about the industry.
Why post if you don't have a clue, don't take in personally but it happens all the time on this site and it detracts from often a sensible debate.
IMHO its just happening to much lately.
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I believe the original point was that taking friends flying with a basic PPL is legal, but if they pay more than their share it becomes illegal, and that this is illogical. Yes, it is. Personally, I can't think of a good reason for it.
Second is a question we should ask of a pilot is whether we would be happy to send our kids up with that pilot?
Joing the two together would you be happy with a new pilot who has just got a licence to start learning to take your kids up flying?
I know my answer would be NO! There are long established pilots I wouldnt be happy sending my kids up with but I certainly would not be happy sending my kids up with a pilot who flew 12 hrs a year and was not experienced.
The Law states that such a newbie pilot can take his friends, business associates and family for flights.
Obviously the law does NOT regard the friends, family and business associates as having the same rights to safety as those who hand over money.
A lot in flying is about double standards and slight of hand a lot is to do with protectionism and protecting companies who pay a lot of money to comply with certain regulations and restrictions and who then demand that they are protected from pilots who could easely undercut them and operate to lower standards.
So this is a complex one. Would you be happy with Pilot X flying your children in Y aircraft ? that should be the question.
The exhange of money is really irrelevant.
Pace