Help! - Which aerobatic permit aircraft???
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Help! - Which aerobatic permit aircraft???
Hi all,
I've recently added Group A SSEA to my NPPL after 500+ hours flying flexwing and 3-axis microlights. I've been signed off for taildraggers and am having some major fun in a Citabria at the moment, but that's simply too expensive to fly regularly, so:
I have come up with the following wishlist and I'd be extremely grateful if anyone could suggest appropriate machines that might fit the bill. Many thanks.
NB: I'm just looking for something that I can safely throw around, not wanting to enter comps
1. Must be aerobatic and spin like a top, but semi-aerobatic is fine
2. Must be on an LAA Permit to Fly - I'm an experienced RAF aircraft techie and have neither the inclination or funds(!) to pay someone else to do my routine maintenance.
3. Ideally should have 2 seats, but a reasonably priced single seater would be a definite possibility
4. Must have reasonably benign handling and good spin recovery characteristics - I'm fairly sure that a Pitts is a little beyond me for the moment!
5. Should cost no more than £20K (but preferably quite a bit less)
6. I fly from a huge concrete runway, but would really like a machine with good STOL performance for visiting farm strips
7. I would prefer something which operates on MoGas but an AvGas burner isn't out of the question
8. Would like something that can trundle along at about 60Kts if required so I can keep flying with my microlight buddies
9. Absolutely must have a stick not a yoke, and ideally a quadrant type throttle
I'm not sure if such an 'ideal' machine exists, but any suggestions most gratefully received. Thanks for your time.
I've recently added Group A SSEA to my NPPL after 500+ hours flying flexwing and 3-axis microlights. I've been signed off for taildraggers and am having some major fun in a Citabria at the moment, but that's simply too expensive to fly regularly, so:
I have come up with the following wishlist and I'd be extremely grateful if anyone could suggest appropriate machines that might fit the bill. Many thanks.
NB: I'm just looking for something that I can safely throw around, not wanting to enter comps
1. Must be aerobatic and spin like a top, but semi-aerobatic is fine
2. Must be on an LAA Permit to Fly - I'm an experienced RAF aircraft techie and have neither the inclination or funds(!) to pay someone else to do my routine maintenance.
3. Ideally should have 2 seats, but a reasonably priced single seater would be a definite possibility
4. Must have reasonably benign handling and good spin recovery characteristics - I'm fairly sure that a Pitts is a little beyond me for the moment!
5. Should cost no more than £20K (but preferably quite a bit less)
6. I fly from a huge concrete runway, but would really like a machine with good STOL performance for visiting farm strips
7. I would prefer something which operates on MoGas but an AvGas burner isn't out of the question
8. Would like something that can trundle along at about 60Kts if required so I can keep flying with my microlight buddies
9. Absolutely must have a stick not a yoke, and ideally a quadrant type throttle
I'm not sure if such an 'ideal' machine exists, but any suggestions most gratefully received. Thanks for your time.
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I think the best bang for your buck is a Pitts and they are not the beast that some people will tell you.
Alan Cassidy says there are no twitchy aircraft only twitchy pilots.
Initially you will find them too responsive but after a year or 20+ hrs you will start to appreciate the control authority. Just get some good dual training and take it easy for the first year. Set yourself a low crosswind limit and do your aeros up high. If you get something less responsive then you may get disapointed and have to sell it after a year or so. Cross Stiks palm with Avgas and he'll probably take you up.
If you have more money, then there are many nice LAA monoplanes lasers, One Designs, Zivkos and Extra 230's. £20K may get you a share. Generally they are easier to fly and have more performance than Pitts. They show better in competition and will all be competitive up to Advanced.
If you want two seats then there are Skybolts, Christen Eagle, Acrosport Hiperbipe, Tipsy Nipper etc on the LAA register, but they have much more limited aerobatic capability, probably similar to the Citabria. The RVs are really tourers with gentle aerobatic capability. Skybolts, Christen Eagle, RVs etc will be much more than £20K so these are probably a share
I think Pitts are like Lotus Sevens.The monoplanes are like Porsches. Each has their fans.
ZA
Alan Cassidy says there are no twitchy aircraft only twitchy pilots.
Initially you will find them too responsive but after a year or 20+ hrs you will start to appreciate the control authority. Just get some good dual training and take it easy for the first year. Set yourself a low crosswind limit and do your aeros up high. If you get something less responsive then you may get disapointed and have to sell it after a year or so. Cross Stiks palm with Avgas and he'll probably take you up.
If you have more money, then there are many nice LAA monoplanes lasers, One Designs, Zivkos and Extra 230's. £20K may get you a share. Generally they are easier to fly and have more performance than Pitts. They show better in competition and will all be competitive up to Advanced.
If you want two seats then there are Skybolts, Christen Eagle, Acrosport Hiperbipe, Tipsy Nipper etc on the LAA register, but they have much more limited aerobatic capability, probably similar to the Citabria. The RVs are really tourers with gentle aerobatic capability. Skybolts, Christen Eagle, RVs etc will be much more than £20K so these are probably a share
I think Pitts are like Lotus Sevens.The monoplanes are like Porsches. Each has their fans.
ZA
Last edited by Zulu Alpha; 4th Oct 2009 at 21:52.
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What you want is a Tipsy Nipper, your in luck as there is a very nice one for sale at the moment for £12500 which is an absolute bargain by the looks of it. Meets all of your criteria perfectly except the 2 seats!
1. Must be aerobatic and spin like a top, but semi-aerobatic is fine
-Check!, spins very well indeed and very aerobatic.
2. Must be on an LAA Permit to Fly - I'm an experienced RAF aircraft techie and have neither the inclination or funds(!) to pay someone else to do my routine maintenance.
-Check!
3. Ideally should have 2 seats, but a reasonably priced single seater would be a definite possibility
-Only 1 seat but very reasonable indeed.
4. Must have reasonably benign handling and good spin recovery characteristics - I'm fairly sure that a Pitts is a little beyond me for the moment!
-Check, Take your hands and feet off the controls and it'll pretty much sort itself out (as long as you watch the rear CG limit). Excellent handling and very responsive.
5. Should cost no more than £20K (but preferably quite a bit less)
-One for sale just now at £12,500
6. I fly from a huge concrete runway, but would really like a machine with good STOL performance for visiting farm strips
-I'm getting off the ground in about 50m with the Jabiru engine, VW's probably much the same, landing run is only a couple of hundred Meters.
7. I would prefer something which operates on MoGas but an AvGas burner isn't out of the question
-Check, Nippers can be run on MoGas or Avgas.
8. Would like something that can trundle along at about 60Kts if required so I can keep flying with my microlight buddies
-Cruises at 95mph but will happily fly at 60tks all day long. Stall is about 35kts.
9. Absolutely must have a stick not a yoke, and ideally a quadrant type throttle
-Check, stick and throttle.
Excellent owners forum can be found here:-
Tipsy Nipper • Index page
Aircraft for sale as follows (no its not mine as I wont be selling for a long time!):-
Tipsy Nipper • View topic - Nipper mk3
Mine costs me about £400 per year to insure, £20 per hour to fly on fuel and I do the maintenance myself which is pretty simple stuff.
With a climb rate of 1000fpm I can safely be doing aeros only 5mins after take off and typically back on the ground in about 30mins, a lot of fun for circa £10!
Plenty of vids on Youtube etc...
1. Must be aerobatic and spin like a top, but semi-aerobatic is fine
-Check!, spins very well indeed and very aerobatic.
2. Must be on an LAA Permit to Fly - I'm an experienced RAF aircraft techie and have neither the inclination or funds(!) to pay someone else to do my routine maintenance.
-Check!
3. Ideally should have 2 seats, but a reasonably priced single seater would be a definite possibility
-Only 1 seat but very reasonable indeed.
4. Must have reasonably benign handling and good spin recovery characteristics - I'm fairly sure that a Pitts is a little beyond me for the moment!
-Check, Take your hands and feet off the controls and it'll pretty much sort itself out (as long as you watch the rear CG limit). Excellent handling and very responsive.
5. Should cost no more than £20K (but preferably quite a bit less)
-One for sale just now at £12,500
6. I fly from a huge concrete runway, but would really like a machine with good STOL performance for visiting farm strips
-I'm getting off the ground in about 50m with the Jabiru engine, VW's probably much the same, landing run is only a couple of hundred Meters.
7. I would prefer something which operates on MoGas but an AvGas burner isn't out of the question
-Check, Nippers can be run on MoGas or Avgas.
8. Would like something that can trundle along at about 60Kts if required so I can keep flying with my microlight buddies
-Cruises at 95mph but will happily fly at 60tks all day long. Stall is about 35kts.
9. Absolutely must have a stick not a yoke, and ideally a quadrant type throttle
-Check, stick and throttle.
Excellent owners forum can be found here:-
Tipsy Nipper • Index page
Aircraft for sale as follows (no its not mine as I wont be selling for a long time!):-
Tipsy Nipper • View topic - Nipper mk3
Mine costs me about £400 per year to insure, £20 per hour to fly on fuel and I do the maintenance myself which is pretty simple stuff.
With a climb rate of 1000fpm I can safely be doing aeros only 5mins after take off and typically back on the ground in about 30mins, a lot of fun for circa £10!
Plenty of vids on Youtube etc...
Last edited by Unusual Attitude; 4th Oct 2009 at 21:51.
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The nipper for sale is my son's .He is very sad to have to sell it. pics available google G-AVTC . Its probably one of the best in the country ( as acknowledged by many nipper enthusiasts) and its local to you .(Norfolk)
Let me know if you would like to see it.
Let me know if you would like to see it.
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Pretty difficult set of requirements (you left out amphibious!).
The nearest to it would be an Auster. That then raises the issue of which one, but leaving that aside, and its modest aerobatic capability, it ticks more of the boxes than most.
However the short wing variants do not change hands often and really they are the only ones with halfway aerobatic capability - although the others will merrily spin and a certainly semi-aerobatic. (even if the ailerons are pretty rubbish!)
The nearest to it would be an Auster. That then raises the issue of which one, but leaving that aside, and its modest aerobatic capability, it ticks more of the boxes than most.
However the short wing variants do not change hands often and really they are the only ones with halfway aerobatic capability - although the others will merrily spin and a certainly semi-aerobatic. (even if the ailerons are pretty rubbish!)
I'm about to do some testing in an Auster (ex CofA rebuild for issue of a PtF), in the words of Francis Donaldson to me about it in an Email last week...
G
Originally Posted by Francis Donaldson
Not many people want to aerobat Austers these days, a cold bath is cheaper and at least as much fun.
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Don't get me wrong.. I've owned lots of austers, including the aiglet trainer ( short wing AEROBATIC ?????) and am currently involved in the building of several more , but have you ever rolled one??
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Gary
Reading down your list, I can put a tick in every box, except one... and that maybe half a tick depending on the length of the farm strip.
The Starduster Too, I think is what you're looking for.
There are a few on the British register but you hardly ever see a share for sale let alone and entire aircraft! So if you were interested, it may involve a trip to the USA and arrange an import.
Cost for a good aircraft at the current £/$ rate = £20K to £25K and say £3K for importing it.
Just the job for a small group ownership I'd say!
Reading down your list, I can put a tick in every box, except one... and that maybe half a tick depending on the length of the farm strip.
The Starduster Too, I think is what you're looking for.
There are a few on the British register but you hardly ever see a share for sale let alone and entire aircraft! So if you were interested, it may involve a trip to the USA and arrange an import.
Cost for a good aircraft at the current £/$ rate = £20K to £25K and say £3K for importing it.
Just the job for a small group ownership I'd say!
Last edited by Bigglesthefrog; 22nd Jul 2010 at 08:52.
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OK...I can just hear someone saying..."But Gary said not more than £20K"
Well here's another one that sold just a few weeks ago. It even has a detachable full canopy with a cockpit heater (Great for the UK!) and 180HP Lyc with CP Prop and the guy was asking £18K
Bootiful.....as they say in Norfolk!
Well here's another one that sold just a few weeks ago. It even has a detachable full canopy with a cockpit heater (Great for the UK!) and 180HP Lyc with CP Prop and the guy was asking £18K
Bootiful.....as they say in Norfolk!
Last edited by Bigglesthefrog; 22nd Jul 2010 at 08:53.
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I don't know if it is really that bad Hatz.
I know that there are a couple of things need doing for the LAA permit, for instance, three hinges on the elevator, control stops on the aerilons and two struts on the vertical to horizontal tail surfaces. I've only ever seen one example of a Starduster with only one strut and that is the Blue aircraft in my previous post. As for the taxes, there is the VAT, but what are the others?
I have to admit, I have not seen the other posts of problems with Starduster imports, if you know of any I would be interested to read them.
But the aircraft does look very nice and a friend of mine used to own one many years ago and he enthused about it!
There seems to be a number of us in the East that are interested in this sort of flying, so maybe we should talk more, think about groups, what about a Steerman!!
I know that there are a couple of things need doing for the LAA permit, for instance, three hinges on the elevator, control stops on the aerilons and two struts on the vertical to horizontal tail surfaces. I've only ever seen one example of a Starduster with only one strut and that is the Blue aircraft in my previous post. As for the taxes, there is the VAT, but what are the others?
I have to admit, I have not seen the other posts of problems with Starduster imports, if you know of any I would be interested to read them.
But the aircraft does look very nice and a friend of mine used to own one many years ago and he enthused about it!
There seems to be a number of us in the East that are interested in this sort of flying, so maybe we should talk more, think about groups, what about a Steerman!!
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Cheers!
Thanks for the interest and suggestions guys; lots to think about for sure. Trying to work out if I can afford a Nipper and still keep my Shadow (I'll have some very unhappy kids if I only have access to a single seater!) Decisions, decisions...
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Know what you mean, I have the Nipper for my own fun and also a share in a c172 for taking pax on sightseeing trips or if I want to go places, best of both worlds!
