Wikiposts
Search
Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Dilemma!!

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 25th Aug 2009, 13:14
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: uk
Age: 42
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dilemma!!

Hello

What would you do in my circumstances...

I am 30 , have a family and have 2 hobbies that are my passion. Aviation and Photography.

I am going to university in september for 3 years to do a business degree and i want to make use of these 3 years to setup my own business.

I have 2 ideas...

1: Use the extra money i will have (student loan etc) to learn how to fly and then try and get my instructor rating and either become a full time flying instructor or eventually setup my own microlight flying school within the 3 years OR

2: Setup my own photography studio and learn to fly when i can

Before you ask i have been up in a light aircraft numerous times and taken the controls and know its for me. I adore being up there and if i hadnt heard all the stories about bad pay i wouldnt be having this dilemma.

I am going to need 30k per annum (wouldnt kill me to have less for a few years but would want to get to this 2yrs after graduating)

Please dont dimiss this as another silly thread , its a true dilemma and need some advice.

Thankyou

Ben
maxialphas is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 13:33
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Somerset, UK
Age: 75
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@Maxialphas.
Impossible for us to resolve your dliemma from the information provided.

First you need to be absolutely certain that you want to start your own business and that it wouldn't be better to have a normal job (e.g. commercial photography, aerial photography??) as an employee.

Why do you think that you can successfully complete a business degree course and start a business at the same time - aren't you massivley increasing the risk of failure of both?

If you are determined to start your own business - why are you going to university and probably ending up with big debts at the end?

It appears to me (from what little info you have given) that you need to really assess what you want to do and committ yourself 100% to doing that?

Sorry that didn't help much but only you can answer the question "What should I do with the rest of my life"
Choxolate is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 13:51
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Each of the things you want to do ((i) a 3 year business degree, (ii) become a flight instructor from scratch and (iii) set up a photography studio) is a full time occupation in itself - and that's before you factor in your family responsibilities.

My gut feel is that it would be better to do one thing really well than to try to cram too much in at the same time which might result in everything suffering.

A business degree (an MBA??) will often lead to a specific type of occupation - eg an investment banking, consulting or industry job. I decided against an MBA when I realised that the types of opportunities such a course might create were not what I particularly wished to do.

If you have a good idea for your own business, the best advice would be to develop a coherent plan, encourage people you trust to critique it for you, hone it and then get on and do it.

Ultimately, do something that you'll be good at and that will make you happy.

If you ended up doing something totally different, you could always endulge both your passions at once by photographing aeroplanes in your spare time!
Heliplane is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 16:31
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LONDON
Age: 51
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Speaking as someone who runs their own business (IT Consultancy)...

My advice would be to Not to use your student loan etc for learning to fly, Learning to fly is an expensive enough hobby that you dont really want to be paying any interest on top of. Likewise once you do have your PPL you will still be paying the loan off for the lessons and would have reduced spare cash available to persue flying on that licence and staying current. From what I have read there are few instructors jobs available at the moment so you would be placing all your eggs in one basket so to speak.

My advice would be only start your PPL if you have the income to support paying for the lessons and remaining current afterwards. You also have to factor the amount of groundschool time and the exams you have to part and whether they would interfere with your uni studies.

If your considering an MBA (Masters of Business Administration) then you may wish to consider going part time instead of full time - You can do this online with both the Open University and Liverpool University. I did my MSc with Liverpool and it is quite easy to fit around any work commitments as you pick your modules and when and set aside 8 week blocks. Doing it part time will allow you to continue working and also gives you gaps where by you can study for your PPL (whilst having the income to do so if working).

Finally there is alot of time spent involved in running a business, the paperwork involved can be quite large and there is the book keeping to do. If you find yourself a good accountant they will do most of this for you but they will charge - for example my consultancy is a Limited company and pays about £1200 in accountancy fee's even tho I do my own invoicing and VAT returns. You have to factor in the administration time for your company along with any working time - for example I work 5 days a week consulting and do my bookwork on a sunday afternoon.
Jofm5 is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 16:47
  #5 (permalink)  
niknak
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"When you want to start a business, look in the Yellow Pages".

Peter Jones. Theo Pathites. Mr Banatyne. Government Advice. Just about everyone who has started and run a succesful business anywhere.

There are hundreds of professional photographers in the UK and there are hundreds of flying organisations, all of whom have one thing above and beyond you - they've started the business, developed it and run it.
Some are more successful than others, some are very successful, but the facts are that you are suggesting entering an extremely competitive market and you are at the bottom rung with nothing.

That may sound harsh, but those are the facts.
It strikes me that you are, with due respect, extremely naive and have no idea of your market, customers or start up and ongoing costs.

Go and do your degree, by then you will be 33, just as poor, but maybe be a little more mature about the harsh world of business aviation.
Nuff said.
niknak is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 16:47
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: uk
Age: 42
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hi,

Sorry i should have given more details.

I have been succssfully running my own business for the last 6yrs , but the area i am in is in decline and i wanted to change before it got stale.

It is a foundation degree in business and marketing for 2yrs with the option to do the 3rd year.

I have specifically chosen to do this as i have no debt , or mortgage so can comfortably live on very little , and yes i will need to pay the student loan back but i am entitled to quite aq few grants that i dont need to pay back.

I have some money put aside also to help with living costs and have budgeted and have nearly £2000 per month left over after all my bills are met.

That is enough to learn my PPL easily and then some. or if i did the photography thats more than enough to rent a little unit and work from there.

I am doing the business course as i feel i lack in mass marketing and would benefit from the extra skills of trying to get customers in.

I am just at the point in my life where i want to start doing something I enjoy as the business im in i inherited from family and tbh am fed up with it.

Basically i want a fresh start.



Niknak,

With respect im hardly naive , who said i was poor??, im not stupid and know its extremely hard to run a business these days as i run one 6 days a week.

A successful business is a profitable business , i know that and if i can manage to get more in than out then i will have succeeded.

It isnt like i have no experience of budgeting and making ends meet!
maxialphas is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 16:55
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The people you need to discuss this with are your family - especially your other half. Any of the three options you've raised will require significant support and a surprising level of committment from them. (and a business degree is probably the last thing you need to run your own business - as I guess you already know)
worrab is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 17:37
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LONDON
Age: 51
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Maxialphas,

Worrab has a point with looking in the yellow pages, there will be quite a few photographers out there and most instructors are tied to a flying school.

Alot of photography business I would imagine comes from Word of mouth/recommendation so to establish yourself to get to that level may prove an uphill struggle. The same applies for an instructor not tied to a flight school.

In my own personal view for decent business marketing I would forget the 3 years course and employ a marketing agency, this will probably work out cheaper (over time) and much quicker to get to where you want to be. One of the things I have learnt running a business is not to stretch yourself too thinly by wearing all the hats - employ contractors/agencies/accountants when required as they have spent years doing what you will have only scratched the surface at and will no doubt do a better job. Speak to a couple of angencies about your ideas and see how much they will help and charge you.
Jofm5 is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 17:57
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Age: 68
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Good luck with what you intend, but think long and hard about the commercial flying instructor route.

I am sure you have an idea of figures, but to get to FI stage, via PPL and CPL will cost you in the order of £25k, including the hours building. FI pay is c**p in 99% of schools and job security poor. Flight training generally is very subject to economic conditions. Allowing £6k for getting your PPL, then roughly £20k will buy you an awful lot of flying which moreover will be hugely more satisfying and varied than teaching ab initio students (mostly endless rounds of "trial lessons").

You will almost certainly earn very much more doing your day job and using the surplus earnings to fly or buy a share or even a whole aircraft!

Having read this I seem very cynical! There are some who do make a career as an FI, but many tend to be those who have retired from main stream commercial aviation and many of those work part time and are self employed. Others do find their niche in commercial training organisations. Money is not the whole answer I know, but having been self employed running your own business will you really be happy salaried on a fraction of what you have the potential to earn else where?

The obvious thought here is aviation photography!! Yes, there are some very successful aviation photographers already, but success will be down to you.
Justiciar is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 18:09
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Just over there
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
1: Use the extra money i will have (student loan etc) to learn how to fly and then....
Think yourself lucky, all my early training was funded by selling the car, overtime and savings.

Youve got to love the system in the UK, a kid goes to uni to study cheese and biscuits 4 hours a week for three years (no disrespect to your biz degree maxialphas) and gets a student loan.

Want to become a proffesional pilot and your on your own.

maxialphas, as others have said, if I were you I would choose one of your options and go for that 100% then move on from there.
Good luck with whatever you choose though matey.

DPT
dontpressthat is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 18:24
  #11 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: uk
Age: 42
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
DPT,

No offence taken!

It aint like i havent paid considerably more into the system than i will be taking out anyway lol

Aviation photography seems the logical choice yes but according to my research it is extremely hard to even make a little bit of a living out of it due the vast amount of people willing to do it for free

Aerial photography is another that is extremely difficult to make money out of.

I know there is alot of competition in flight schools and photography but isnt there with everything these days?

I think by adding value in other areas, be that better customer services, better prices, better flexibility there will always be scope for new companies to get a slice of the action.

In my computer business we struggled a few years ago , i spotted a gap in the market, and started offering free computer lessons once a month to newbies.

Took off , my sales increased and all it cost me was a thursday night once a month for 2hrs teaching people the basics of a computer.

Going back to a flight school for instance. I do genuinely belive that with a microlight and a good dose of hard work it could be a success , even if it meant employing an instructor whilst i trained , i would still make money out of the £100 per hour training charge that is typical these days.

Ben
maxialphas is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 19:23
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Manchester
Age: 40
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My advice is ignore all the sensible 'concerntrate on one thing 100% bla bla' advice posted here. I'm doing exactly the same thing as you, but reckon I'm a year or two further down the line.

I have a wife and son and have a more than happy family life, I work full time Monday to Friday for a multi-national IT reseller (IBM Enterprise Sales) I own my own sucessful business (4 years and counting) which I run part time from home which I'm starting to see a good ROI for now (an accountant does my books, don't pay anywhere near £1,200!), I passed my PPL (JAA) a little over 18 months ago, I'm now studying for ATPL exams and will be starting the CPL flight training soon with a view to getting the FI rating, I also race a 600 Honda at 9 or 10 club meetings a year. Added to which I'll soon be starting a honours degree in marine biology (distance learning).

Sounds like a lot, but we live in the Uk! I only manage to fly probably 50% of the time I plan to due to weather! Which I then use to study -fly on the good weather days, study on the bad weather days etc etc (not all - BW flying is invaluable experience, instructor present recommended!). Anyway, what I'm trying to say is JUST GO FOR IT! The only thing in the above that is worthwhile mentioning is family. If they're your side and all is OK financially (which you've stated is) there is nothing stopping you.

Good Luck!

SS600

Last edited by Supersport; 25th Aug 2009 at 19:36.
Supersport is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 20:20
  #13 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: uk
Age: 42
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Supersport,

Thanks so much for the optimistic reply.

I really love being at airfields, love being up in an aircraft and have taught people in the past with my old job so feel i couldmake a go of it as a flight instructor whether that being for my own flightschool or working for someone else.

I am as you say just going to GO FOR IT!

Ben
maxialphas is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 21:05
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Matey,

It is best to regret the things that you have done, rather than regret the things that you have not done!


Stik
stiknruda is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2009, 21:35
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Learning to fly is a hobby.
A full time joib as a (GA) flying instructor has been tried by many with few who make it a success.
If you want to become an airline pilot look towards an investment of £50,000 and five years graft.
During your FDBusiness studies you will be given experience in personal developement and advice on how to take the best decisions regarding your future by proper consideration of the options.
I suggest you occupy your time over the next couple of years in getting full value from the course and wait until you are in a better position to take a decision on your future without pre-judging it before you start.
Keep an open mind.
By the way, all the best whatever you decide - I'm in the middle of studying for a degree myself and I'm 71
funfly is offline  
Old 26th Aug 2009, 08:02
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Age: 68
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Maxialphas:

Me thinks you have already made up your mind. I detect a considerable bias in your responses to those who confirm what you want to do! We have all been there at some point so good luck on your chosen path.
Justiciar is offline  
Old 26th Aug 2009, 09:47
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Max,
Go for it,as Stik said,it's no good looking back and regretting not having done things.
I've had a good life overall,and sometimes people have said I'm lucky to have this or that or done certain things etc and I've always replied that you make your own luck.
You have the family behind you,so work hard,play hard and I wish you all the best for the future.
Lister
Lister Noble is offline  
Old 26th Aug 2009, 09:48
  #18 (permalink)  

Official PPRuNe Chaplain
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 80
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Don't try to do three things at once. Two at once is enough.

I used to teach at Business Schools ("from the coalface" stuff about practical application of the theory). It was very apparent that for any individual student, 80% or so of what they learned was irrelevant to what they were going to do. Some hadn't a clue, for example, on investment analysis - which is a critical skill for those spending serious money.

Decide what you want to do first, then decide the right path to get there. If you don't know where you're going, any path will take you there.
Keef is offline  
Old 26th Aug 2009, 10:50
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
options

ben, i don't wish to sound negative but as a location photographer (& a yak 50 owner) working in central london for 15 years, much of that traveling worldwide for plc's can i say that you are considering entering a business that is:

a) cut throat

b) full of competitors who have assisted since the age of 18-20

c) awash with portfolios built up over many years

d) cutting its day rates every year whilst time hungry raw processing has replaced dropping the film with a lab in EC2

e) and without sounding tired of it (i'm not...its a great job) a dying trade as we'll all be taking high res stills from hdv cameras before you know it.

so.. would i recommend it ? yes... 20 years ago but at 30-33 starting from scratch... no way & i would hope that you'd do a bit more research - the last place a designer/ad agency will look is the yellow pages & people that do will ask you to photograph their cat or old granny.
starting out when i did was fine and the lifestyle has been unbelievable but you really need to look elsewhere in my opinion.

hope it works out but i'd do something like the flying micro-light school and have some fun outdoors
GYAKR is offline  
Old 26th Aug 2009, 11:30
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wrexham
Age: 32
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In a way, I am in a similar situation to you maxialphas, but without just without a family of my own (still living with my parents!). However, I am currently supporting my parents financially due to my fathers illness.

By day I am a freelance graphic/web developer (4 successful years in the industry) and also am just about to go into my second year of my digital media degree. Luckily for me, I have got welsh grants behind me and also my first year was free due to the fact I started a year early. However, I did take out the student loans due to the fact that they are a lot more cost effective than getting one in the "real world" later on in life - I have never spent a penny of any of it!

From my experience, to work for yourself in the creative industries, is not just a 9 to 5 job, and especially when it is also your hobby/passion, you start to feel that there is no end to the work. I absolutely love my job, but sometimes you feel overwhelmed by it, and somehow need a release. Now the problem I find is where do you get that release from when what you do everyday is also your hobby?

For me, I am just starting to get my wings so to speak, and have recently completed my trial flight, and loved every minute. I am planning on building up the student loan to pay for my flying lessons, and do it for the sheer pleasure of it!

My advise: Always keep something as a hobby, but do both - live is for living!!

Hope this helps.

V
vkw91 is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.