VFR 'On Top'
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Not True.
The Old CAA PPL DOES provide the privilege as you desscribe
The UK issue JAA/PPL has almost the same wording, but adds in
Quote:
The licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175
of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.
1.175 says basically - IFR not allowed, except to comply with UK night = IFR
So, as I understand it, UK issue JAA PPLs are just like everyone else's PPL and not allowed to operate IFR - regardless of the weather. (Note given UK IFR in VMC is almost identical to UK VFR - this shouldn't present an issue when the weather is VMC)
The Old CAA PPL DOES provide the privilege as you desscribe
The UK issue JAA/PPL has almost the same wording, but adds in
Quote:
The licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175
of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.
1.175 says basically - IFR not allowed, except to comply with UK night = IFR
So, as I understand it, UK issue JAA PPLs are just like everyone else's PPL and not allowed to operate IFR - regardless of the weather. (Note given UK IFR in VMC is almost identical to UK VFR - this shouldn't present an issue when the weather is VMC)
mm flynn:
If you have an IMC rating, its privileges say that it “… entitle[s] the holder of a JAR-FCL Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane in Class D or E airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.” That clearly overrides JAR–FCL 1.175.
Well, it does for Classes D & E at least. What I don’t understand is, what about Classes F & G?
I'm surprised that no one has quoted the original text:
1.175(b) In JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night), the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted. National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue only.
The UK is clearly a "JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night)". Therefore, within the UK, "the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted."
Surely that permits a UK PPL without instrument qualification to fly IFR in circumstances that meet the restrictions of paragraph 3 of Schedule 8 Section 2 Sub-Section 1, which Jim59 quoted above.
1.175(b) In JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night), the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted. National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue only.
The UK is clearly a "JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night)". Therefore, within the UK, "the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted."
Surely that permits a UK PPL without instrument qualification to fly IFR in circumstances that meet the restrictions of paragraph 3 of Schedule 8 Section 2 Sub-Section 1, which Jim59 quoted above.
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I am going to regret this post as bookworm is nearly always right .... But here goes.
The UK requirement for night vmc flights to be conducted under IFR is clearly a target for 'specified circumstances'. However, I don't see how operating in sub-VMC falls into this category. Especially, as the ability to operate in IMC (ie not VMC) is not specified but rather is not mentioned as excluded.
It would be interesting to know the CAA's intent. After all the UK has been, I believe, unique in allowing PPLs to operate under IFR (with a range of limitations)
The UK requirement for night vmc flights to be conducted under IFR is clearly a target for 'specified circumstances'. However, I don't see how operating in sub-VMC falls into this category. Especially, as the ability to operate in IMC (ie not VMC) is not specified but rather is not mentioned as excluded.
It would be interesting to know the CAA's intent. After all the UK has been, I believe, unique in allowing PPLs to operate under IFR (with a range of limitations)
Last edited by mm_flynn; 3rd Mar 2009 at 16:53. Reason: Further thought
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CAA lifetime licence holders, self declare yourself IFR, disregard the cloud separation requirements with impunity and skim the fluffy cloud tops until your little heart's content.
JAA PPL holders who knows any different anyway....
JAA PPL holders who knows any different anyway....
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Join Date: Jun 2003
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IMHO, one of the most pointless things to debate in aviation are the VFR cloud spacing rules 
European pilots are fortunate to not have an oral exam. Some FAA examiners just love to pick up on this area during the oral... cloud spacing rules versus airspace class versus day/night
European pilots are fortunate to not have an oral exam. Some FAA examiners just love to pick up on this area during the oral... cloud spacing rules versus airspace class versus day/night
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Why not simply complete the IMC, surly this will then equip you with the necessary skills as well as knowledge needed, rather then pursuing legal technicalities to permit one to fly above cloud.
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It may depend where you are but over here "VFR over the top" is quite legal. You just have to maintain cloud, traffic and terrain clearances.
They also have the "IFR to VFR on top" clearance which is a useful clearance to climb through the cloud. Once on top, you cancel IFR and continue VFR. If not on top, you continue IFR or whatever you decide to do (shoot the approach back home for example).
Great system
[edit: you need an IR of course
]
