Taking children in your own plane - divorced parents
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Taking children in your own plane - divorced parents
I am divorced and my children are now 12 and 10
In Holland both parents remain full parents with parental rights and obligations after a divorce. There is no such thing as a higher authority between the two.
In theory it means both parents after their divorce should make efforts to agree on the key issues in education such as school choices, home moves etc.
Apart from these key joint decisions each parents has the rights and obligations when the kids are under his/her control for the day to day affairs.
In my case my ex is afraid of flying and we have not managed to find a reasonable way of agreeing things regarding the kids.
So I was told "I was not allowed" to take them flying, although of course it is not her decision to make.
Nevertheless, I did not take them up, simply because I would have to walk on eggs and at the same time, I felt they were too young to enjoy it anyway and I still wanted to get better at what I do in the air.
Do more (divorced) parents have issues between them about taking the kids flying and how have they dealt with this?
In Holland both parents remain full parents with parental rights and obligations after a divorce. There is no such thing as a higher authority between the two.
In theory it means both parents after their divorce should make efforts to agree on the key issues in education such as school choices, home moves etc.
Apart from these key joint decisions each parents has the rights and obligations when the kids are under his/her control for the day to day affairs.
In my case my ex is afraid of flying and we have not managed to find a reasonable way of agreeing things regarding the kids.
So I was told "I was not allowed" to take them flying, although of course it is not her decision to make.
Nevertheless, I did not take them up, simply because I would have to walk on eggs and at the same time, I felt they were too young to enjoy it anyway and I still wanted to get better at what I do in the air.
Do more (divorced) parents have issues between them about taking the kids flying and how have they dealt with this?
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In the UK, though there may be joint custody, one parent retains "care and control". I am aware of one parent who has not been able to take his sons gliding. This despite the fact that both sons ad been gliding with him for some time before the divorce. He had to capitulate because he was reluctant to put any more stress on his realtionship with the mother of his children.
My ex was only too happy for me to involve my sprogs in dangerous sports including gliding and rock climbing. All I had to do was keep on paying the mortgage for her and her new husband.
My ex was only too happy for me to involve my sprogs in dangerous sports including gliding and rock climbing. All I had to do was keep on paying the mortgage for her and her new husband.
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I had exactly the same problem, vanHorck.
I got legal advice on it. The answer (UK law) was that when the child is with one parent or the other, the other parent has NO say in what the other parent does.
If a divorced woman (with, as usual, child custody) objects to her ex husband taking the kids for a flight, she has two options:
1) p*ss in the wind
2) get a court injunction to prevent the father from taking the kids for a flight
The injunction would almost certainly be refused because it is unreasonable. Taking a kid to a strip club, or watching dogging... (sorry, a popular English past-time) that would be tricky.
Of course she has a 3rd option, frequently exercised by divorced women with sole child custody, which is to get revenge by messing with contact. This is a tough one, because if she is determined there isn't much one can do about it without going for a court order fast. You turn up at the house at the agreed time, ring the bell, and there is nobody there. After a few months of this, it will be hard to get an order because she can claim that since the kids have not seen the father for X months, they would be emotionally disturbed if they saw him. And, hey ho, hey ho, the court always acts in the interests of the children
One has to nip this kind of thing in the bud FAST, before it is too late.
My ex threatened that unless I did as she said, she would move away and I would not see the kids again. I doubted she actually would have done so but she was pretty aggressive and I decided that it was not a battle worth fighting, so I would always have a co-pilot (her demand). This was a huge hassle, of course, because co-pilots are hard to find unless one is going somewhere "nice" and (in some cases) I pay for his food and hotel room as well.
However, very recently, she was evidently desperately keen to go out on a date and asked me if I would have my son (12) for the day, but I was going for a flight, and guess what? The date was more important to her, so she let it go. After that, she could not go back so that battle has been won
So, wait for an opportunity 
This seems to be a very common problem for divorced men who fly.
I got legal advice on it. The answer (UK law) was that when the child is with one parent or the other, the other parent has NO say in what the other parent does.
If a divorced woman (with, as usual, child custody) objects to her ex husband taking the kids for a flight, she has two options:
1) p*ss in the wind
2) get a court injunction to prevent the father from taking the kids for a flight
The injunction would almost certainly be refused because it is unreasonable. Taking a kid to a strip club, or watching dogging... (sorry, a popular English past-time) that would be tricky.
Of course she has a 3rd option, frequently exercised by divorced women with sole child custody, which is to get revenge by messing with contact. This is a tough one, because if she is determined there isn't much one can do about it without going for a court order fast. You turn up at the house at the agreed time, ring the bell, and there is nobody there. After a few months of this, it will be hard to get an order because she can claim that since the kids have not seen the father for X months, they would be emotionally disturbed if they saw him. And, hey ho, hey ho, the court always acts in the interests of the children
One has to nip this kind of thing in the bud FAST, before it is too late.My ex threatened that unless I did as she said, she would move away and I would not see the kids again. I doubted she actually would have done so but she was pretty aggressive and I decided that it was not a battle worth fighting, so I would always have a co-pilot (her demand). This was a huge hassle, of course, because co-pilots are hard to find unless one is going somewhere "nice" and (in some cases) I pay for his food and hotel room as well.
However, very recently, she was evidently desperately keen to go out on a date and asked me if I would have my son (12) for the day, but I was going for a flight, and guess what? The date was more important to her, so she let it go. After that, she could not go back so that battle has been won
So, wait for an opportunity This seems to be a very common problem for divorced men who fly.
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Yap IO, the option nr 3, basically not allowing the kids to visit their dad is the bad one also here in NL.
U males have got it bad. In Holland at least Alimony is well enforced (and rightly so) but a mother refusing to let her kids go see their father is an option.
Until the courts immediately put a large fine on their refusal to let the kids visit, there will be many mums refusing to let their kids fly without a right to do so...
The example you gave on her wanting you to have the kids cos of her date sounds like my wife!
You re sure we re not both x-es of the same!? Jeezz we had bad taste!
U males have got it bad. In Holland at least Alimony is well enforced (and rightly so) but a mother refusing to let her kids go see their father is an option.
Until the courts immediately put a large fine on their refusal to let the kids visit, there will be many mums refusing to let their kids fly without a right to do so...
The example you gave on her wanting you to have the kids cos of her date sounds like my wife!
You re sure we re not both x-es of the same!? Jeezz we had bad taste!
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So I was told "I was not allowed" to take them flying, although of course it is not her decision to make.
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Gertrude
True, but the divorced father is more likely to suffer dire consequences if he persists in his intentions (i.e. not seeing his kids anymore)
True, but the divorced father is more likely to suffer dire consequences if he persists in his intentions (i.e. not seeing his kids anymore)
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I'm from Canada and yes men here too get kicked in the nuts when it comes to child custody issues.
I had the same round of disputes with my X. She said I was absolutely not to take my son, then 4 or 5, flying.
I took him flying anyways and he really enjoyed it. I snapped a few pictures of him having a good time.
She threatened to take it to court, I just smiled and said see you there. It was one of the few times she couldn't get a lawyer to take up her case. It was just plain and simple not winnable.
As my lawyer said, "If you're licenced and legal to go flying she can't tell you can't take him flying any more than she can say you can't take him for a car ride."
In other words there is no discernable difference between a personal car and a personal airplane in the eyes of the court.
She tried to inject ideas like, oh he’s scared of flying, he doesn’t like the noise etc. All of these were her fears not his and even if he was a bit timid the argument still doesn’t hold. If a child is scared of riding in a car for no good reason you can’t force the parents to walk everywhere. It’s the boogie man in the closet thing. Sooner or later the child needs to face those fears, either by sleeping in their bed alone or going for a car/plane ride.
15 years later my son enjoys going up for rides and often takes the controls under my supervision as he hasn’t gotten his licence yet. His two half siblings from his mothers second marriage won’t get into the plane even on the ground as they think it’s going to spontaneously explode (guess where they got those ideas from.)
There is distinction between being amicable for the sake of the children and giving up on your ideals and values. I would say that if flying is your true passion and what defines your character and person then to agree not to involve your children is the later.
I had the same round of disputes with my X. She said I was absolutely not to take my son, then 4 or 5, flying.
I took him flying anyways and he really enjoyed it. I snapped a few pictures of him having a good time.
She threatened to take it to court, I just smiled and said see you there. It was one of the few times she couldn't get a lawyer to take up her case. It was just plain and simple not winnable.
As my lawyer said, "If you're licenced and legal to go flying she can't tell you can't take him flying any more than she can say you can't take him for a car ride."
In other words there is no discernable difference between a personal car and a personal airplane in the eyes of the court.
She tried to inject ideas like, oh he’s scared of flying, he doesn’t like the noise etc. All of these were her fears not his and even if he was a bit timid the argument still doesn’t hold. If a child is scared of riding in a car for no good reason you can’t force the parents to walk everywhere. It’s the boogie man in the closet thing. Sooner or later the child needs to face those fears, either by sleeping in their bed alone or going for a car/plane ride.
15 years later my son enjoys going up for rides and often takes the controls under my supervision as he hasn’t gotten his licence yet. His two half siblings from his mothers second marriage won’t get into the plane even on the ground as they think it’s going to spontaneously explode (guess where they got those ideas from.)
There is distinction between being amicable for the sake of the children and giving up on your ideals and values. I would say that if flying is your true passion and what defines your character and person then to agree not to involve your children is the later.
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You re sure we re not both x-es of the same!? Jeezz we had bad taste!
Men don't get clued up on obscure things like relationships (what's that???) until they reach 40.
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Kids flying
The embittered partner can apply for a Prohibitive Steps Order to stop the children flying.
It is a blanket restriction if granted ie not directed at any one person.
I have first hand experience of this. My partners kids cannot fly in light aircraft.
All the applicant needs to do is convince the court that they are genuinely in fear of flying and will suffer extreme anxiety if the children flew in a small plane.
Hey, I didint fly in anything until I was 23 so the kids have a lot to look forward to.
More if you PM me.
JB
It is a blanket restriction if granted ie not directed at any one person.
I have first hand experience of this. My partners kids cannot fly in light aircraft.
All the applicant needs to do is convince the court that they are genuinely in fear of flying and will suffer extreme anxiety if the children flew in a small plane.
Hey, I didint fly in anything until I was 23 so the kids have a lot to look forward to.
More if you PM me.
JB
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This is a significant thread drift but the tactic for men here is to make oneself somehow "useful" to the ex, so she has an incentive to co-operate on contact matters.
Being a single mother is damned hard work - even when the ex is paying loads of maintenance. Not too bad if you are an "earth mother" type who never wanted to go out to work anyway (those types make the hardest divorces) but much harder for a woman with intelligence and initiative who wants to get out and about and do something constructive.
Most divorced women with kids are bitter and spiteful, not least because they perceive themselves as having got a raw deal, while their ex husband can fly around in planes, and hit the internet dating sites. The fact that he also has to go to work is irrelevant... "men live for their job after all".
If you can have the kids over quite a lot, then she has time to go out and have a life, it won't cost her anything, and she doesn't have to trust some dim 18 year old babysitter who doesn't care about the kids and just wants to go clubbing and get her ankles behind her ears. In return, she won't be anywhere near such a bitch. Well, she might still be a bitch but self interest will always win in the end.
How to structure all this.... tricky! One needs to live in reasonable proximity, for a start.
Maybe somebody will write it all up on some website... a step by step guide to getting divorced without driving oneself around the bend.
Would that not be difficult if the child actually wants to fly, and has flown previously?
I am assuming the father has actually got a lawyer, a real male lawyer, not some modern left wing liberal wimp from a company which is a member of that trade association called the SFLA
Example: my ex mandated a co-pilot. Then, what does she do? She takes them to the USA, and they go up for a heli trip around the Grand Canyon. A 2-pilot helicopter? Yeah, right, and I am the Pope. An aircraft with about 5,235 single points of failure, any of which is a certain death. Then, to top it all, she instructs the boys to not tell me And I still didn't push it after that - because the 12 year old was too scared of her; she is his mum after all, feeds him and clothes him. It was not for another year that that she relented.
but the tactic for men here is to make oneself somehow "useful" to the ex, so she has an incentive to co-operate on contact matters.Being a single mother is damned hard work - even when the ex is paying loads of maintenance. Not too bad if you are an "earth mother" type who never wanted to go out to work anyway (those types make the hardest divorces) but much harder for a woman with intelligence and initiative who wants to get out and about and do something constructive.
Most divorced women with kids are bitter and spiteful, not least because they perceive themselves as having got a raw deal, while their ex husband can fly around in planes, and hit the internet dating sites. The fact that he also has to go to work is irrelevant... "men live for their job after all".
If you can have the kids over quite a lot, then she has time to go out and have a life, it won't cost her anything, and she doesn't have to trust some dim 18 year old babysitter who doesn't care about the kids and just wants to go clubbing and get her ankles behind her ears. In return, she won't be anywhere near such a bitch. Well, she might still be a bitch
but self interest will always win in the end.How to structure all this.... tricky! One needs to live in reasonable proximity, for a start.
Maybe somebody will write it all up on some website... a step by step guide to getting divorced without driving oneself around the bend.
All the applicant needs to do is convince the court that they are genuinely in fear of flying and will suffer extreme anxiety if the children flew in a small plane.
I am assuming the father has actually got a lawyer, a real male lawyer, not some modern left wing liberal wimp from a company which is a member of that trade association called the SFLA
Example: my ex mandated a co-pilot. Then, what does she do? She takes them to the USA, and they go up for a heli trip around the Grand Canyon. A 2-pilot helicopter? Yeah, right, and I am the Pope. An aircraft with about 5,235 single points of failure, any of which is a certain death. Then, to top it all, she instructs the boys to not tell me
And I still didn't push it after that - because the 12 year old was too scared of her; she is his mum after all, feeds him and clothes him. It was not for another year that that she relented.
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I felt they were too young to enjoy it anyway and I still wanted to get better at what I do in the air.
I too am divorced, married and had kids young. My son started flying with me at the young age of four. My wife left for a better life and left me with my Son and daughter (she is still searching for that better life having ruined me financially and I still get a call every week about how unhappy she is).
My son was 14 at the time.
Fact is that my son against all my advice went straight from school with a PPL into flying. He went straight through CTC and still at the age of 21 was contracted with Easy Jet. He flies as a first officer on 737s still only 22 and on a fantastic salary for a guy of his age.
So NO they are not too young
Pace
nb was the best thing she did as I have had a great time with flying and more women than I dare mention so look on the positive side.
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Good post Pace!
A positive story.
I guess for all of us we walk a tight rope with our exes and the decision can go both ways depending on how the tightrope balances.
Right now I ve finally convinced her to accept mediation so that we can go to a normal contact, which I think is essential for the kids happiness. When that works, I will raise the issue of flying with me. The kids are keen enough so no issue there, but the overriding drive is to maximize normality for the kids first.
And it could well be that I start off with flying them including a P2 initially
A positive story.
I guess for all of us we walk a tight rope with our exes and the decision can go both ways depending on how the tightrope balances.
Right now I ve finally convinced her to accept mediation so that we can go to a normal contact, which I think is essential for the kids happiness. When that works, I will raise the issue of flying with me. The kids are keen enough so no issue there, but the overriding drive is to maximize normality for the kids first.
And it could well be that I start off with flying them including a P2 initially
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And it could well be that I start off with flying them including a P2 initially
That is my one reservation as your kids are the most precious of cargo.
In an aircraft they are totally reliant on you should you get it wrong or become unwell.
Taking them up with a safety pilot with more experience could be a way for you to convince your ex that all is well.
When you feel more experienced and comfortable by then I am sure she will too and you can start flying them on your own.
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A safety pilot may be a good idea, but if you have an airplane-mad kid, why not let him do some flying. It won't take a huge amount of informal instruction to enable somebody to fly somewhere (on the GPS moving map) and get the plane down. Obviously a 5 year old can't, but plenty of schools have been doing the informal "co-pilot" courses whose objective is just that. I am certain my 12 year old could do it, and walk away, and he's had only a few flight in the RH front seat.
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I only suggested the safety pilot as Van indicated his lack of experience and a possible P2.
This maybe behind the exes concerns! Wives current or exes tend to know their husbands their weaknesses too Hence they tend to be less confident being flown by their own than by a total stranger who may be a far worse pilot.
To get the ball rolling it could be diplomatic to add the P2 as a stepping stone to solo flights.
Pace
I only suggested the safety pilot as Van indicated his lack of experience and a possible P2.
This maybe behind the exes concerns! Wives current or exes tend to know their husbands their weaknesses too
Hence they tend to be less confident being flown by their own than by a total stranger who may be a far worse pilot.To get the ball rolling it could be diplomatic to add the P2 as a stepping stone to solo flights.
Pace