Heathrow Fbu To Close On 28 January
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Heathrow Fbu To Close On 28 January
NOTAM B0084/09 issued on 19 January announces that the Flight Briefing Unit at Heathrow will close at 1200 on 28 January 2009 and its functions will be transferred to Swanwick. Thereafter all general aviation flight plans will need to be filed using the notoriously difficult to use AFPEX internet system or by fax to 01489 612793. Flight plans will need to be properly addressed. The existing helpful telephone service will be discontinued and although there will be a telephone helpline on 0845 601 0483, the use of the telephone to file plans and pass flight plan messages will be discouraged.
That's the bad news. The good news is that I understand the existing FBU team at Heathrow are looking into launching a new comprehensive service along the lines of Austrocontrol's Homebriefing. This would be menu driven offering everything from simple flight plan filing and confirmation to provision of a complete route management service including weather, notams and, possibly, obtaining overflight and PPR permissions. It would be accessible from anywhere 24/7 by telephone or internet and could be up and running in a basic form by the end of March.
Clearly this would need to be a paid service, but one would hope the basic service costs would be comparable with those of Homebriefing and others. I am sure the guys at NATS will be monitoring this thread and interested to hear what features pilots would like to see in such a service and what would be a reasonable charging basis.
Just to be clear, I'm not a NATS employee; just a pilot who would be happy to use and pay for such a service instead of using a foreign provider.
That's the bad news. The good news is that I understand the existing FBU team at Heathrow are looking into launching a new comprehensive service along the lines of Austrocontrol's Homebriefing. This would be menu driven offering everything from simple flight plan filing and confirmation to provision of a complete route management service including weather, notams and, possibly, obtaining overflight and PPR permissions. It would be accessible from anywhere 24/7 by telephone or internet and could be up and running in a basic form by the end of March.
Clearly this would need to be a paid service, but one would hope the basic service costs would be comparable with those of Homebriefing and others. I am sure the guys at NATS will be monitoring this thread and interested to hear what features pilots would like to see in such a service and what would be a reasonable charging basis.
Just to be clear, I'm not a NATS employee; just a pilot who would be happy to use and pay for such a service instead of using a foreign provider.
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Clearly this would need to be a paid service
Obviously someone, somewhere has to pay, but not necessarily the end user.
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There was a thread on this here recently.
Afpex would be fine if
- they got rid of the huge java application download
- they offered incoming message transfer to email
They could improve the VFR addressing side of things, but that then needs a database of airports to work out how to address the FP. Unless they just send it to the departure ARO to deal with, which is what Homebriefing has on occassion said it does.
They could also eliminate the silly security, which is there only because Afpex allows one to mess with others' flight plans (so it appears - never tried it). The whole thing should have been done differently IF aimed at private pilots (which it wasn't); you would specify a list of tail numbers for which you can file flight plans and then no real security (beyond a simple login) is needed.
Afpex would be fine if
- they got rid of the huge java application download
- they offered incoming message transfer to email
They could improve the VFR addressing side of things, but that then needs a database of airports to work out how to address the FP. Unless they just send it to the departure ARO to deal with, which is what Homebriefing has on occassion said it does.
They could also eliminate the silly security, which is there only because Afpex allows one to mess with others' flight plans (so it appears - never tried it). The whole thing should have been done differently IF aimed at private pilots (which it wasn't); you would specify a list of tail numbers for which you can file flight plans and then no real security (beyond a simple login) is needed.
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IO has pretty much said everything I was thinking.
AFPEx is OK but the java downloads and security are a PITA. I would just like a simple web page with simple log on that I can use from my mac, little portable ASUS or mactop Pro or even iPhone and be useable over mobile data connections.
I just want to file a flight plan and be done.
AFPEx is OK but the java downloads and security are a PITA. I would just like a simple web page with simple log on that I can use from my mac, little portable ASUS or mactop Pro or even iPhone and be useable over mobile data connections.
I just want to file a flight plan and be done.
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"I just want to file a flight plan and be done"
If it were possible to meet your technical needs within a new service, are you prepared to pay a nominal fee for using it, or are you saying you want it for free?
"Flight plans will need to be properly addressed."
I saw this referred to in the Notam. Looks like those of you who do not use AFPEx, but want to file a FPL by fax or phone, are going to have to do the work for the AFPEx team. Lets be clear about this - the AFPEx team are not trained to the same standards as the Heathrow FBU staff - never were, never will be. They work for the CACC - thats the Comms dept for the uninitiated - so dont expect the same level of service. Until the advent of AFPEx, the only input CACC had with your flight plans was watching them shuttle back and forth across the AFTN network after they had been dealt with by us. As for the FIR/FPRSA staff, who may potentially be asked to provide a backup service - they are great at what they do, but that's not filing flight plans.
IO540 is correct in his assumption on another thread that AFPEx is all about cutiing staff costs - its certainly not about offering you, the flying community, a better or improved service - just a different one.
Had AFPEx been allowed to run alongside the existing system, instead of replacing it, then that could well have been construed to be a step in the right direction - technical difficulties aside.
As stated in the opening post, we are looking at a number of options incorporating internet, email, fax, phone - H24, manned by those whose business it has been to provide this service day in, day out for many years. So, for those of you who don't subscribe to AFPEx, Homebriefing, whatever, but especially for all of you who want your FPLs filed using a method that suits you, and that you can trust - give us a call at the Heathrow FBU and tell us what you want and would expect from any new service - not just ours. We are open to your suggestions, and will welcome some real user input.
If it were possible to meet your technical needs within a new service, are you prepared to pay a nominal fee for using it, or are you saying you want it for free?
"Flight plans will need to be properly addressed."
I saw this referred to in the Notam. Looks like those of you who do not use AFPEx, but want to file a FPL by fax or phone, are going to have to do the work for the AFPEx team. Lets be clear about this - the AFPEx team are not trained to the same standards as the Heathrow FBU staff - never were, never will be. They work for the CACC - thats the Comms dept for the uninitiated - so dont expect the same level of service. Until the advent of AFPEx, the only input CACC had with your flight plans was watching them shuttle back and forth across the AFTN network after they had been dealt with by us. As for the FIR/FPRSA staff, who may potentially be asked to provide a backup service - they are great at what they do, but that's not filing flight plans.
IO540 is correct in his assumption on another thread that AFPEx is all about cutiing staff costs - its certainly not about offering you, the flying community, a better or improved service - just a different one.
Had AFPEx been allowed to run alongside the existing system, instead of replacing it, then that could well have been construed to be a step in the right direction - technical difficulties aside.As stated in the opening post, we are looking at a number of options incorporating internet, email, fax, phone - H24, manned by those whose business it has been to provide this service day in, day out for many years. So, for those of you who don't subscribe to AFPEx, Homebriefing, whatever, but especially for all of you who want your FPLs filed using a method that suits you, and that you can trust - give us a call at the Heathrow FBU and tell us what you want and would expect from any new service - not just ours. We are open to your suggestions, and will welcome some real user input.
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well as flight plans are so expensive and such a pain in the arse i won't do one or if I do it will be somewhere where i don't won't to go.
Airways get charged on your filed route not where you go. So I will file because I have to because of my aircraft weight but it will be routing outside controlled to where i am going not the 50 miles to my filght plan destination.
Jesus we really do want to play the game but if your making it that difficult I am happy enough to wing it outside and pick up a service if required (usually you guys are more scared than we are so we get the works)
Airways get charged on your filed route not where you go. So I will file because I have to because of my aircraft weight but it will be routing outside controlled to where i am going not the 50 miles to my filght plan destination.
Jesus we really do want to play the game but if your making it that difficult I am happy enough to wing it outside and pick up a service if required (usually you guys are more scared than we are so we get the works)
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What I'm still amazed at is that every JAA country is trying to find an individual solution to the same problem. Sometimes even under the same name, homebriefing.nl being a case in point - it looks like they even stole the logos from homebriefing.com.
Why can't Eurocontrol simply offer something that would apply to all JAA countries? They offer a NOTAM service already plus access to the AIP and related documents on EUROCONTROL - The European AIS Database: Introduction to EAD Basic - Home. It seems to me like that's the obvious place to offer a flightplan submission service.
Why can't Eurocontrol simply offer something that would apply to all JAA countries? They offer a NOTAM service already plus access to the AIP and related documents on EUROCONTROL - The European AIS Database: Introduction to EAD Basic - Home. It seems to me like that's the obvious place to offer a flightplan submission service.
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because as GA you tend not to fly to the standard airfields and its none standard which shags the whole system.
The other week I entered the southern FIR from ostend with the intention of flying up to inverness Brussels had decided I had to fly to Barkway up to Polehill, Talla, Foyle then up. It meant we went from east to west to east through POL which the controllers really don't want TP's at FL180 getting in the way of MAN inbounds. Thankfully the lovely crontroller on the FIR handover organised a direct SAB before we were feet dry and TAY scottish gave us direct after New. It saved us over a quarter of a ton of fuel and 45mins flight time. Which equates to 1k for the aircraft and 3 pints in the pub
The controllers were not happy we were running outside controlled airspace though at least 90% of the calls were asking if we wanted to bend it into an airway. NO I am VMC 70k viz at night on a Friday evening at FL180, flying doesn't get any better.
Personally I will continue using the Norwegien system which provides wx and notams and flight filing free of charge and none of the bollocks with cookies which all the UK systems require you to accept but unfotunately most airport computers are setup to refuse.
The other week I entered the southern FIR from ostend with the intention of flying up to inverness Brussels had decided I had to fly to Barkway up to Polehill, Talla, Foyle then up. It meant we went from east to west to east through POL which the controllers really don't want TP's at FL180 getting in the way of MAN inbounds. Thankfully the lovely crontroller on the FIR handover organised a direct SAB before we were feet dry and TAY scottish gave us direct after New. It saved us over a quarter of a ton of fuel and 45mins flight time. Which equates to 1k for the aircraft and 3 pints in the pub
The controllers were not happy we were running outside controlled airspace though at least 90% of the calls were asking if we wanted to bend it into an airway. NO I am VMC 70k viz at night on a Friday evening at FL180, flying doesn't get any better.
Personally I will continue using the Norwegien system which provides wx and notams and flight filing free of charge and none of the bollocks with cookies which all the UK systems require you to accept but unfotunately most airport computers are setup to refuse.
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none of the bollocks with cookies
The only way that you could do something complicated like that consistently and reliably, without cookies, would be to start Java applets or other things that are way more complicated and involved than cookies.
And no, cookies do not contain viruses. Cookies are not sent to other websites. Cookies do not contain personal information. All they are is a unique identifier that's used by the server to correlate individual requests for web pages with each other.
Last edited by BackPacker; 21st Jan 2009 at 07:47.
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One problem is that the over the top security prevents you accessing Afpex from an internet cafe computer.
This is OK for me - I have been carrying a small laptop, with GPRS/3G, for years - but not many pilots do that. Unfortunately far from all internet cafes offer wifi or a cable connection, to enable the laptop to be used.
Homebriefing has a simple login/password access. You can still use HB to file a flight plan for anybody else's plane but you cannot query the flight plan database like you can with Afpex, but why would any pilot want to?
If somebody ex-Heathrow is looking to set up a HB-like service, then I suggest HB is the starting point to look at. Allegedly, their software is an off the shelf product from the same company as the old ais.org.uk Notam site (Thales??). I never had a usability problem with HB.
The general thing to get right on any website is to minimise the amount of data transferred. This is vital for users on GPRS/3G especially if on PAYG. But if you pay some whizz kid to design a website, you get a megabyte here, a megabyte there, and everybody thinks they got value for money. The end result is crap, and usable only over ADSL, or over 3G if you are on an inclusive roaming tarriff (not many of those under about £40/month) or somebody else is paying. HB have a reasonably simple site which doesn't transfer much data - I guess a few hundred kbytes to get a job done; I don't use it for notams, for which I use the NATS site. But even a few hundred k is way too much; the entire user interface of HB can be done with a few k. Basically all you need is a very simple form like the Eurocontrol flight plan validation site.
As regards addressing, I think some people make this appear harder than it is. For IFR the FP just goes to the two IFPS addresses. For VFR, it goes to dep, dest, (a nearby airport if either of these is non towered) and the area FIS addresses. But if you are VFR, few people along the route care much about you anyway.
This is OK for me - I have been carrying a small laptop, with GPRS/3G, for years - but not many pilots do that. Unfortunately far from all internet cafes offer wifi or a cable connection, to enable the laptop to be used.
Homebriefing has a simple login/password access. You can still use HB to file a flight plan for anybody else's plane but you cannot query the flight plan database like you can with Afpex, but why would any pilot want to?
If somebody ex-Heathrow is looking to set up a HB-like service, then I suggest HB is the starting point to look at. Allegedly, their software is an off the shelf product from the same company as the old ais.org.uk Notam site (Thales??). I never had a usability problem with HB.
The general thing to get right on any website is to minimise the amount of data transferred. This is vital for users on GPRS/3G especially if on PAYG. But if you pay some whizz kid to design a website, you get a megabyte here, a megabyte there, and everybody thinks they got value for money. The end result is crap, and usable only over ADSL, or over 3G if you are on an inclusive roaming tarriff (not many of those under about £40/month) or somebody else is paying. HB have a reasonably simple site which doesn't transfer much data - I guess a few hundred kbytes to get a job done; I don't use it for notams, for which I use the NATS site. But even a few hundred k is way too much; the entire user interface of HB can be done with a few k. Basically all you need is a very simple form like the Eurocontrol flight plan validation site.
As regards addressing, I think some people make this appear harder than it is. For IFR the FP just goes to the two IFPS addresses. For VFR, it goes to dep, dest, (a nearby airport if either of these is non towered) and the area FIS addresses. But if you are VFR, few people along the route care much about you anyway.
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well it means that in about 50% of airport offices around europe you can't get access to the met-office or in the old days notams.
Alot of companys are using crewbriefing which runs through denmark so I would hazard a guess that 95% of aviation occurs in the UK without accessing local information sources. Its all done accessing the information through 3rd parties abroad.
Alot of companys are using crewbriefing which runs through denmark so I would hazard a guess that 95% of aviation occurs in the UK without accessing local information sources. Its all done accessing the information through 3rd parties abroad.
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"Alot of companys are using crewbriefing which runs through denmark .."
I wonder if this is the service that operates from an EKBI AFTN address - the same one that we receive many calls about? Apparently operators filing from over here do not receive notification of changes to their submitted FPLs - just an ACK message. Only last week I spent a fair amount of time trying to assist two UK based operators who both had problems with this issue, and felt the need to resort to good ol' Heathrow FBU when the sh*t hit the fan. Naturally, we were only too happy to assist in whatever way we could. (It came to light that both of these operators also subscribe to AFPEx
alongside this 'Danish pastry' - I'm surprised they didn't go there first for assistance.... or did they?? 
)
I wonder if this is the service that operates from an EKBI AFTN address - the same one that we receive many calls about? Apparently operators filing from over here do not receive notification of changes to their submitted FPLs - just an ACK message. Only last week I spent a fair amount of time trying to assist two UK based operators who both had problems with this issue, and felt the need to resort to good ol' Heathrow FBU when the sh*t hit the fan. Naturally, we were only too happy to assist in whatever way we could. (It came to light that both of these operators also subscribe to AFPEx
alongside this 'Danish pastry' - I'm surprised they didn't go there first for assistance.... or did they?? )
It seems perverse that every safety system for private pilots is being made more complex to the extent that they are no longer fit for purpose.
1. The flight planning system will be effectively unuseable once the FBU goes so that those flying from strips without extensive IT systems available will surely have to fly without the protectipon of a flight plan and alerting action in the future.
2. The NOTAM system no longer feels like a service. Third party software states that its use is not adequate preparation for a flight (or some other such caveat) and the only way to get NOTAM is from the ais website, yet the ais ommits vital information when you put in narrow route data, and if you go for information FIR by FIR you get so much that it would be practically impossible to make use of the data provided to assess implications on your route.
3. The Met-office aren't what they used to be. The 36 hour TAFs can be so long and cover so many eventualities that they start to become arse covering exercises from Exeter rather than a useful tool to allow an average GA pilot to tell whether it is prudent to fly.
What will it take to get a decent level of safety service like we used to have, or better still, a system such as the FAA provides for free. I doubt the average private pilot will be sending much money to FBU Heathrow premium rate service (although a virtual FBU/handling agent could work for some GA operators).
1. The flight planning system will be effectively unuseable once the FBU goes so that those flying from strips without extensive IT systems available will surely have to fly without the protectipon of a flight plan and alerting action in the future.
2. The NOTAM system no longer feels like a service. Third party software states that its use is not adequate preparation for a flight (or some other such caveat) and the only way to get NOTAM is from the ais website, yet the ais ommits vital information when you put in narrow route data, and if you go for information FIR by FIR you get so much that it would be practically impossible to make use of the data provided to assess implications on your route.
3. The Met-office aren't what they used to be. The 36 hour TAFs can be so long and cover so many eventualities that they start to become arse covering exercises from Exeter rather than a useful tool to allow an average GA pilot to tell whether it is prudent to fly.
What will it take to get a decent level of safety service like we used to have, or better still, a system such as the FAA provides for free. I doubt the average private pilot will be sending much money to FBU Heathrow premium rate service (although a virtual FBU/handling agent could work for some GA operators).
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I would be happy to subscribe to a service that allowed me to do this in a SIMPLE manner from ANY web browser without download of software.
It would have to be a reasonable fee which is something that needs careful thinking about!
However its something that has a definite market space.
It would have to be a reasonable fee which is something that needs careful thinking about!
However its something that has a definite market space.
"I just want to file a flight plan and be done"
If it were possible to meet your technical needs within a new service, are you prepared to pay a nominal fee for using it, or are you saying you want it for free?
"Flight plans will need to be properly addressed."
I saw this referred to in the Notam. Looks like those of you who do not use AFPEx, but want to file a FPL by fax or phone, are going to have to do the work for the AFPEx team. Lets be clear about this - the AFPEx team are not trained to the same standards as the Heathrow FBU staff - never were, never will be. They work for the CACC - thats the Comms dept for the uninitiated - so dont expect the same level of service. Until the advent of AFPEx, the only input CACC had with your flight plans was watching them shuttle back and forth across the AFTN network after they had been dealt with by us. As for the FIR/FPRSA staff, who may potentially be asked to provide a backup service - they are great at what they do, but that's not filing flight plans.
IO540 is correct in his assumption on another thread that AFPEx is all about cutiing staff costs - its certainly not about offering you, the flying community, a better or improved service - just a different one. Had AFPEx been allowed to run alongside the existing system, instead of replacing it, then that could well have been construed to be a step in the right direction - technical difficulties aside.
As stated in the opening post, we are looking at a number of options incorporating internet, email, fax, phone - H24, manned by those whose business it has been to provide this service day in, day out for many years. So, for those of you who don't subscribe to AFPEx, Homebriefing, whatever, but especially for all of you who want your FPLs filed using a method that suits you, and that you can trust - give us a call at the Heathrow FBU and tell us what you want and would expect from any new service - not just ours. We are open to your suggestions, and will welcome some real user input.
If it were possible to meet your technical needs within a new service, are you prepared to pay a nominal fee for using it, or are you saying you want it for free?
"Flight plans will need to be properly addressed."
I saw this referred to in the Notam. Looks like those of you who do not use AFPEx, but want to file a FPL by fax or phone, are going to have to do the work for the AFPEx team. Lets be clear about this - the AFPEx team are not trained to the same standards as the Heathrow FBU staff - never were, never will be. They work for the CACC - thats the Comms dept for the uninitiated - so dont expect the same level of service. Until the advent of AFPEx, the only input CACC had with your flight plans was watching them shuttle back and forth across the AFTN network after they had been dealt with by us. As for the FIR/FPRSA staff, who may potentially be asked to provide a backup service - they are great at what they do, but that's not filing flight plans.
IO540 is correct in his assumption on another thread that AFPEx is all about cutiing staff costs - its certainly not about offering you, the flying community, a better or improved service - just a different one. Had AFPEx been allowed to run alongside the existing system, instead of replacing it, then that could well have been construed to be a step in the right direction - technical difficulties aside.
As stated in the opening post, we are looking at a number of options incorporating internet, email, fax, phone - H24, manned by those whose business it has been to provide this service day in, day out for many years. So, for those of you who don't subscribe to AFPEx, Homebriefing, whatever, but especially for all of you who want your FPLs filed using a method that suits you, and that you can trust - give us a call at the Heathrow FBU and tell us what you want and would expect from any new service - not just ours. We are open to your suggestions, and will welcome some real user input.
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Crewbrief is an online service which you upload your route into. It then generates winded logs fuel plans etc and wx and notams for the route using performance data you have already uploaded for your fleet.
The flight plan is filed directly to Brussels.
The flight plan is filed directly to Brussels.
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bose-x
we are very aware of the pricing issue. Its going to be difficult enough to persuade people to part with their money in the current climate, let alone for something which is already available for a modest (reasonable?) fee, or in certain circumstances (and with certain limitations) essentially for free.
This is why we are asking PPLs/GA to speak to us and tell us what they would expect to see in an 'ideal' service. We need to know this in order to ascertain whether or not a suitable end product can be developed within whatever budget constraints are placed upon us.
I cannot comment specifically about software, browsers etc - this belongs to those tasked with developing that side of the product, but all comments, ideas, requests etc from all sources (including this thread) are being fed back to the team.
The more input we receive, the better the chances of us getting it right.
we are very aware of the pricing issue. Its going to be difficult enough to persuade people to part with their money in the current climate, let alone for something which is already available for a modest (reasonable?) fee, or in certain circumstances (and with certain limitations) essentially for free.
This is why we are asking PPLs/GA to speak to us and tell us what they would expect to see in an 'ideal' service. We need to know this in order to ascertain whether or not a suitable end product can be developed within whatever budget constraints are placed upon us.
I cannot comment specifically about software, browsers etc - this belongs to those tasked with developing that side of the product, but all comments, ideas, requests etc from all sources (including this thread) are being fed back to the team.
The more input we receive, the better the chances of us getting it right.
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My requirements are pretty simple.......
I would like a website that I can sign into and enter an FPL, it will give me an ACK and I can sign in if needed to change the FPL due to time shift etc.
95% of my FPL are IFR airways so I would like to be able to verify the FPL but I guess that is a tall order!
Other than that I am flexible!
I would like a website that I can sign into and enter an FPL, it will give me an ACK and I can sign in if needed to change the FPL due to time shift etc.
95% of my FPL are IFR airways so I would like to be able to verify the FPL but I guess that is a tall order!
Other than that I am flexible!