Light Aircraft down in Staffordshire
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A very sad start to the year.
The trouble with a PA28-140 is that it can catch the unwary - I owned one for several years and have instructed on the type for many years.
Although it has 4 seats, it is by no means a 4-seater. More sensibly a 2+2.
It would be almost certainly over-weight with 3 on board and full fuel (pictures on the Web show it parked outside - so maybe it still was and with full fuel to reduce the chance of water contamination). It will DEFINATELY be over-weight (and possibly uncontrollable in certain situations) with 3 on board if operating in the Utility category (that is, carrying out certain manoeuvres, such as spinning). There was another sad accident some years ago when two very experienced airline pilots and instructors crashed in the sea after spinning a -140 off the Fylde Coast. The aircraft was over-weight for the exercise and CG out of limits.
As an example, I have flown the -140 with 3 on board and 3/4 tanks and 4 on board with (just) 1/2 tanks. Any more with average weight males on board and you are outside the envelope. It is probably one of the trickiest aircraft in common use in this respect and is not tolerant to over-loading. I checked the weight and balance carefully if I went flying with more than 2 on board (which was quite often as I used it for flying family and friends and hours building at the time).
No speculation about the cause of the crash, just sadness that a enjoyable day out should end in tragedy.
KR
FOK
The trouble with a PA28-140 is that it can catch the unwary - I owned one for several years and have instructed on the type for many years.
Although it has 4 seats, it is by no means a 4-seater. More sensibly a 2+2.
It would be almost certainly over-weight with 3 on board and full fuel (pictures on the Web show it parked outside - so maybe it still was and with full fuel to reduce the chance of water contamination). It will DEFINATELY be over-weight (and possibly uncontrollable in certain situations) with 3 on board if operating in the Utility category (that is, carrying out certain manoeuvres, such as spinning). There was another sad accident some years ago when two very experienced airline pilots and instructors crashed in the sea after spinning a -140 off the Fylde Coast. The aircraft was over-weight for the exercise and CG out of limits.
As an example, I have flown the -140 with 3 on board and 3/4 tanks and 4 on board with (just) 1/2 tanks. Any more with average weight males on board and you are outside the envelope. It is probably one of the trickiest aircraft in common use in this respect and is not tolerant to over-loading. I checked the weight and balance carefully if I went flying with more than 2 on board (which was quite often as I used it for flying family and friends and hours building at the time).
No speculation about the cause of the crash, just sadness that a enjoyable day out should end in tragedy.
KR
FOK
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The most interesting on this subject so far - Thanks FOK.
I am a PPL and look here out of wanting to know why this sad accident happened and to learn from it. Despite what others have said, I do find even some of the more far fetched theories, good, as reminders of what could and can happen when flying.
My condolences to family and friends.
Paul-S
I am a PPL and look here out of wanting to know why this sad accident happened and to learn from it. Despite what others have said, I do find even some of the more far fetched theories, good, as reminders of what could and can happen when flying.
My condolences to family and friends.
Paul-S
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It would be almost certainly over-weight with 3 on board and full fuel (pictures on the Web show it parked outside - so maybe it still was and with full fuel to reduce the chance of water contamination). It will DEFINATELY be over-weight (and possibly uncontrollable in certain situations) with 3 on board if operating in the Utility category (that is, carrying out certain manoeuvres, such as spinning). There was another sad accident some years ago when two very experienced airline pilots and instructors crashed in the sea after spinning a -140 off the Fylde Coast. The aircraft was over-weight for the exercise and CG out of limits.
I think and correct me if I am wrong but the 140 with a rearward C of G had a problem coming out of a spin.
This appears to be a high speed almost vertical dive into the ground which would not indicate a spin to the ground.
In a spin the vertical descent speed is relatively low and stabilises
Maybe an initial spin followed by a dive coming out of it or even a spiral dive but I would question this as a spin to the ground as it appears it was too fast and at very high speed.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 3rd Jan 2009 at 12:56.
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The amount of height required to climb out of a dive is increases massively with the speed of the aircraft. Could this be a case of a too-fast dive (caused for whatever reason) from which the pilot was too low to recover?
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Pace
I don't want to speculate about the cause of the accident - but yes it's the rearward CofG which tends to put the aircraft out of limits. I would have to check the figures carefully, but it is not always the weight, per se, that causes the problem but the CofG issue.
Weight and balance is the one element of flight training I have always rammed down the throats of my students.
For some reason it is always the bete noire of flying training with students. Either they can't be bothered due to an over-eagerness to 'get flying' or for some bizarre reason think it only applies whilst they're training!
I'm not speculating on this accident, but if this Thread can serve a flight safety purpose by reminding people of some Golden Rules regarding loading of light aircraft then, perhaps, some good can come of it?
Remember if you're flying a '4-seater', it will be unusual to get 4 people and full fuel in the tanks and still be within weight and balance limits.
ALWAYS get a copy of the Loading Schedule from the Flight Manual or CURRENT Weight and Balance Schedule for the aircraft you intend to fly. Copy it and use it (as a rule) if you intend flying with more than 2 persons on board. As a general rule 4-seaters will not be overloaded with 2 persons on board and full fuel - but don't take my word for it -CHECK!!!
I always gave my students a copy of the weight and balance schedule and/or graph as a part of a type conversion course and explained the potential dangers to them of an incorrectly loaded aeroplane.
A simple method (particularly if you fly the same aircraft regularly) is to do a 'residual' weight and balance calculation. In other words work out how much 'spare' capacity there is after taking into account the weight of the aircraft prepared for service, full fuel and your own weight PLUS BAGS ETC. Then you will see what is left. Do a calculation of CofG and that will give you a means of assessing the allowable weight of any additional passengers. Alarm bells should start to ring if you suspect you will be over the limits - but ALWAYS do the final calculation and check - it takes 5 minutes and could cost you a lifetime if you don't!!!
Read the CAA Safety Safety leaflets - safety is not an accident!!!
I have had one of two 'near do's' in my flying career due to weight issues. Not because I was over-weight but because the aircraft did not respond as expected. One experience was grass airfield, no wind, hot day (27 degrees in the UK!) and three on board a Piper PA28-140. We just got airborne by the end of the runway - even after all my calculations - and nearly wiped out myself and my mother and father. If I had crashed the accident would have been hard to explain because, technically, nothing was wrong. With hindsight and several thousand more flying hours under my belt I hope I would have aborted the take-off if it happened now. Back then with only a couple of hundred hours I pressed on - because after all I'd checked the weight and balance AND the performance and the aeroplane MUST fly. Well it almost didn't. Another 'I Learn't About Flying From That' incident!
Always plan for and expect the unexpected.
Fly safely
KR
FOK
I don't want to speculate about the cause of the accident - but yes it's the rearward CofG which tends to put the aircraft out of limits. I would have to check the figures carefully, but it is not always the weight, per se, that causes the problem but the CofG issue.
Weight and balance is the one element of flight training I have always rammed down the throats of my students.
For some reason it is always the bete noire of flying training with students. Either they can't be bothered due to an over-eagerness to 'get flying' or for some bizarre reason think it only applies whilst they're training!
I'm not speculating on this accident, but if this Thread can serve a flight safety purpose by reminding people of some Golden Rules regarding loading of light aircraft then, perhaps, some good can come of it?
Remember if you're flying a '4-seater', it will be unusual to get 4 people and full fuel in the tanks and still be within weight and balance limits.
ALWAYS get a copy of the Loading Schedule from the Flight Manual or CURRENT Weight and Balance Schedule for the aircraft you intend to fly. Copy it and use it (as a rule) if you intend flying with more than 2 persons on board. As a general rule 4-seaters will not be overloaded with 2 persons on board and full fuel - but don't take my word for it -CHECK!!!
I always gave my students a copy of the weight and balance schedule and/or graph as a part of a type conversion course and explained the potential dangers to them of an incorrectly loaded aeroplane.
A simple method (particularly if you fly the same aircraft regularly) is to do a 'residual' weight and balance calculation. In other words work out how much 'spare' capacity there is after taking into account the weight of the aircraft prepared for service, full fuel and your own weight PLUS BAGS ETC. Then you will see what is left. Do a calculation of CofG and that will give you a means of assessing the allowable weight of any additional passengers. Alarm bells should start to ring if you suspect you will be over the limits - but ALWAYS do the final calculation and check - it takes 5 minutes and could cost you a lifetime if you don't!!!
Read the CAA Safety Safety leaflets - safety is not an accident!!!
I have had one of two 'near do's' in my flying career due to weight issues. Not because I was over-weight but because the aircraft did not respond as expected. One experience was grass airfield, no wind, hot day (27 degrees in the UK!) and three on board a Piper PA28-140. We just got airborne by the end of the runway - even after all my calculations - and nearly wiped out myself and my mother and father. If I had crashed the accident would have been hard to explain because, technically, nothing was wrong. With hindsight and several thousand more flying hours under my belt I hope I would have aborted the take-off if it happened now. Back then with only a couple of hundred hours I pressed on - because after all I'd checked the weight and balance AND the performance and the aeroplane MUST fly. Well it almost didn't. Another 'I Learn't About Flying From That' incident!
Always plan for and expect the unexpected.
Fly safely
KR
FOK
Flies for fun
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At the risk of being "flamed" the cause is more likely to be a stall/spin accident but hey, patience, the AAIB report is more likely to produce a more accurate assesment of the cause of the crash! As has been mentioned here on this thread, 140's are easily overloaded and a stall and resulting spin is not entirely unheard of!
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The passengers have been named as Nick and Emma O'Brien, a married couple with 2 young children.
My thoughts are really with the families at the moment, especially the children.
My thoughts are really with the families at the moment, especially the children.
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Weight and balance
In a spin the vertical descent speed is relatively low and stabilises
The only thing that may give some info could be the GPS if on, active and recording the flight path
Stalling or spinning into the ground is invariably fatal although I am not saying this is what happened in this case.
Did many hours in the Cherokee 140 - great little a/c if flown within the limitations.
Thoughts and prayers with the bereaved.
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Exactly PKPF68-77, and well elucidated.
I for one have thought about carb icing, airframe icing, the carbon monoxide detectors in the aircraft I fly and all manner of other threats to the safety of my daily flying activities as a result of thinking about possible causes of this accident. Those who say they haven't are fooling nobody but themselves and what is more, miss a vital opportunity to draw a positive from a negative but hey, this is the internet and if someone thinks I'm a fool then more fool them. I have worked everyday with light aircraft for the best part of ten years and accidents are a genuine working hazard, always a possibility day in/day out, which I naturally have some degree of knowledge about and a deep desire to prevent occuring.... but each to their own. If one false theory espoused here can help prevent a future accident then who can really complain? A better way to salute those lost I cannot find.
VFE.
I for one have thought about carb icing, airframe icing, the carbon monoxide detectors in the aircraft I fly and all manner of other threats to the safety of my daily flying activities as a result of thinking about possible causes of this accident. Those who say they haven't are fooling nobody but themselves and what is more, miss a vital opportunity to draw a positive from a negative but hey, this is the internet and if someone thinks I'm a fool then more fool them. I have worked everyday with light aircraft for the best part of ten years and accidents are a genuine working hazard, always a possibility day in/day out, which I naturally have some degree of knowledge about and a deep desire to prevent occuring.... but each to their own. If one false theory espoused here can help prevent a future accident then who can really complain? A better way to salute those lost I cannot find.
VFE.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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I often wonder how reliable the little plastic thingies are... how much time do they give etc? Most of the ones I have seen fitted are out of date.
VFE.
VFE.
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FireFlyBob
While that is the case in most stall spin accidents it does vary from aircraft to aircraft. There is a 4 seater Canard (Velocity)which on its test flight was stalled. The test pilot could not get the aircraft out of a flat spin and to save the only test airframe opened the canopy and attempted to break the flat spin by putting his body weight towards the nose.
This failed and the aircraft spun to the ground landing on a beach. The test pilot climbed out and the same airframe was repaired and used again.
As stated in a spin the vertical speed is relatively low compared to a dive. One witness described the engine sound like a high speed drill and the accident would look like a high speed dive crash.
Pace
Stalling or spinning into the ground is invariably fatal although I am not saying this is what happened in this case.
This failed and the aircraft spun to the ground landing on a beach. The test pilot climbed out and the same airframe was repaired and used again.
As stated in a spin the vertical speed is relatively low compared to a dive. One witness described the engine sound like a high speed drill and the accident would look like a high speed dive crash.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 4th Jan 2009 at 09:57.
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I do not for a moment this was caused caused by CO poisoning because you normally get some effects from that, and of the three people aboard one would expect at least somebody to get a headache and have a moan about it.
I have a BW Gasalert CO detector. Great little unit. The battery lasts about a year and costs about £3. It even picks up the exhaust from the plane which landed before me.
I have a BW Gasalert CO detector. Great little unit. The battery lasts about a year and costs about £3. It even picks up the exhaust from the plane which landed before me.