do you use gps
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chuck,
My comments are not one method versus another. GPS is great. But for people to suggest that one would be mad not to use it is way off the mark. There is no reason why one can't maintain a traffic watch regardless of which properly implemented nav technique you use
My comments are not one method versus another. GPS is great. But for people to suggest that one would be mad not to use it is way off the mark. There is no reason why one can't maintain a traffic watch regardless of which properly implemented nav technique you use
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know where you are living Sciolistes but your comment would be fine if there was no penalty for making a mistake. Unfortunately most of the civilised world is covered in controlled/restricted airspace and the UK alone has several hundred serious busts a year, so "something" needs to be done and dead reckoning is clearly not going to get any better because that horse has been flogged since about 1910 and anybody who thinks that major progress is just around the corner a century later is kidding themselves.
And once outside the civilised world, one might just get shot.
Sure, DR works if you do it right, but there are so many ways to make a mistake, and there is plenty of terrain even in the UK where there are few features.
And once outside the civilised world, one might just get shot.
Sure, DR works if you do it right, but there are so many ways to make a mistake, and there is plenty of terrain even in the UK where there are few features.
When is a map a map and not a chart?
Webster’s Dictionary defines a map as a ‘representation usually on a flat surface of the whole or part of an area.’ They define a chart as a ‘map for the use of navigators.’ Basically, maps portray the land regions of the world in all their vast shapes and forms. Charts portray the shorelines and the oceans of the world. They show water depths, shoals, rocks and other dangers, and they provide mariners crossing the oceans with the means of determining their positions by the use of Latitude & Longitude with a compass rose for direction. However, some early maps doubled as charts showing land areas, as well as the sea coast, giving both topographical and hydrographic information.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
To say that GPS is absolutely unnecessary when flying VFR is an over generalisation, probably borne out of a narrow pool of experience.
After nearly 20 years of military flying using DR techniques, at up to 330kts at 250 feet in one role, or 140 kts at 50 feet in another, these days I fly a single pilot corporate helicopter, VFR where possible (but with an IFR transit in case of low cloud).
The aircraft cruises at 155kts, most often from private landing site to private landing site. These landing sites are often a hotel car park or someone's back garden. In poor weather I still have to fly VFR in order to make the destination (or even the pickup) but the job would be far more difficult if we had to go back to the old methods, i.e. non-GPS navigation. I do the job by night, too, btw.
Not too long ago we flew helicopters with a manual throttle. Fuel computers made the pilot input redundant but more modern aircraft can still be flown in manual. The same "hairy chested" mentality perhaps says we should not use the automatic engine controls? Or the autopilot? Switch off TCAS too?
Modern equipment is designed to offload the pilot and to increase his capability. By not using what's provided in the aircraft, we aren't proper pilots.
After nearly 20 years of military flying using DR techniques, at up to 330kts at 250 feet in one role, or 140 kts at 50 feet in another, these days I fly a single pilot corporate helicopter, VFR where possible (but with an IFR transit in case of low cloud).
The aircraft cruises at 155kts, most often from private landing site to private landing site. These landing sites are often a hotel car park or someone's back garden. In poor weather I still have to fly VFR in order to make the destination (or even the pickup) but the job would be far more difficult if we had to go back to the old methods, i.e. non-GPS navigation. I do the job by night, too, btw.
Not too long ago we flew helicopters with a manual throttle. Fuel computers made the pilot input redundant but more modern aircraft can still be flown in manual. The same "hairy chested" mentality perhaps says we should not use the automatic engine controls? Or the autopilot? Switch off TCAS too?
Modern equipment is designed to offload the pilot and to increase his capability. By not using what's provided in the aircraft, we aren't proper pilots.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually it is! The ATPL/CPL theory teaches and examines GPS systems in reasonable detail
??? Are we talking about the JAA ATPLs? Perhaps for very general values of "reasonable details" that could be true, as in: "There is something called GPS which stands for Global Positioning System. It has to do with satellites". But the ATPLs go in more detail about EFIS and FMCs for example, than they do about GPS. Go to your favourite question bank and do a search for the relevant terms to get an idea.Chuck,
there have been many times in the past I was not anywhere near 100% sure of exactly where I was
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Norfolk, England
Age: 58
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I was a die hard traditionalist not long ago, but have sine changed my tune! I still believe it is perfectly possible and very desireable to be able to accurately navigate by dead reckoning, using a map, compass, and watch. However, GPS really does take the pressure off you. I bought a simple and cheap bluetooth gps, which I use along with the CAA digital chart and memory map in a pocket pc. In my old open cockpit aircraft it made cross country flying so much more enjoyable than before! In such aicraft map reading when the map is flapping around and the joystick is right where you want to rest the thing is a nightmare! There are tricks you soon learn, but they are nothing compared to a moving map display right where you can see it! Brilliant! I like the digital CAA memory map chart, as you can carry the paper version and instantly switch to it if the signal is lost, reverting back to map reading. The other great feature is the arrow that points out where you will be in 10 minutes at your present speed and direction. Great for radio calls and to work out drift on the go!
SS
PS. One point though ... I'm pretty sure airspace busts have actually increased since GPS came along. Why? Well, I really don't thinks it's just because some "foolhardy" pilots don't use it, do you?
SS
PS. One point though ... I'm pretty sure airspace busts have actually increased since GPS came along. Why? Well, I really don't thinks it's just because some "foolhardy" pilots don't use it, do you?
Last edited by shortstripper; 29th Dec 2008 at 14:11.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually it is! The ATPL/CPL theory teaches and examines GPS systems in reasonable detail.
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,929
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sciolistes, your screen name does give it away, no ?
Anyway, re this:
You might be surprised, but this is the way I tend to do it. Not necessarily in your order of importance, but I certainly have my VORs and ADF tuned and monitored. Too much? Not if you're well trained and used to it. Necessary? Probably not, but I look at it as a means of staying proficient with all the kit in the a/c. As an aside, a lot of my flying is done in CAS in a country where position reports are expected to have the format XXX, YY miles on the ZZZ radial of the XYZ VOR.
Anyway, re this:
Taken literally (probably not what you intended) I would need to follow my DR plan as well as monitor the GPS as well as VOR and ADF...too much.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Shortstripper, I have the same system. I also don't believe anyone with a brain would suggest that steam driven DR should be allowed to die, any more than basic stick & rudder skills should be replaced with "goto" & "autoland" With a power failure the other day resulting in "No Signal" (position 56deg 18 N--4deg 15 W heading 290M) the line on the map becomes a necessary back up. An object lesson in not relying on it. Nice lunch at Oban by the way & the weather was perfect.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the UK alone has several hundred serious busts a year, so "something" needs to be done and dead reckoning is clearly not going to get any better because that horse has been flogged since about 1910
To say that GPS is absolutely unnecessary when flying VFR is an over generalisation.
Agreed! Reasonable but totally useless detail!! The USE of GPS is not taught at JAA CPL level; in either theory or the flying course.
With regard to the flight phase of CPL training, what additional training would you like to see?
Sciolistes, your screen name does give it away, no ?
Too much? Not if you're well trained and used to it.
Necessary? Probably not, but I look at it as a means of staying proficient with all the kit in the a/c
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I prefer to fly with a GPS, but I would not leave the ground without one at night!
There have been several times when flying to airports in the Mid West on perfectly clear nights when it took many long minutes before I could pick out the GA airport where I had planned to land from all the city and road lights that surround them. Even when my GPS unit told me I was right over it!
Now I can just hear the smart comments brewing about how hard can it be to look for the dark areas. Minneapolis for example, has over 50 lakes in and around the city, any one of which would dampen the sprites of an aviator foolish enough to make that assumption.
Personally I think GPS is a fine tool, one I use all the time, and I believe new pilots should be encouraged to use them.
Regards,
White Bear
There have been several times when flying to airports in the Mid West on perfectly clear nights when it took many long minutes before I could pick out the GA airport where I had planned to land from all the city and road lights that surround them. Even when my GPS unit told me I was right over it!
Now I can just hear the smart comments brewing about how hard can it be to look for the dark areas. Minneapolis for example, has over 50 lakes in and around the city, any one of which would dampen the sprites of an aviator foolish enough to make that assumption.
Personally I think GPS is a fine tool, one I use all the time, and I believe new pilots should be encouraged to use them.
Regards,
White Bear
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sciolistes, I am trying to figure out if you are just trying to troll or if you are serious about your comments regarding the use of a GPS for safety and additional situational awareness........so I read all of your posts and copied this one....
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 33
Occasionally, with the Capt's agreement, I sometimes choose to disconnect at FL100ish and perhaps get the Captain to take the FD off on final. Keeping on top of raw data handling is important as flying is a multi-faceted skill and all areas need regular exercise. However, the most important thing is managing the flight as a whole which really requires automation to keep work load down for both pilots in anything less than excellent VMC and a low traffic environment (as previously mentioned).
Yes, the 737 is very easy to pole around the sky, but if it does get unstable the situation can deteriorate incredibly rapidly!
Somehow I think you are trolling because even with only 300 hours as a pilot I find it difficult to believe you are trying to convince people that the DR and a pencil and time piece means of navigation is preferable to using the GPS.
Then again I have had a few low time FO's who truly didn't have a clue about flying.
Maybe it is the training they get these days?
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 33
Occasionally, with the Capt's agreement, I sometimes choose to disconnect at FL100ish and perhaps get the Captain to take the FD off on final. Keeping on top of raw data handling is important as flying is a multi-faceted skill and all areas need regular exercise. However, the most important thing is managing the flight as a whole which really requires automation to keep work load down for both pilots in anything less than excellent VMC and a low traffic environment (as previously mentioned).
Yes, the 737 is very easy to pole around the sky, but if it does get unstable the situation can deteriorate incredibly rapidly!
Somehow I think you are trolling because even with only 300 hours as a pilot I find it difficult to believe you are trying to convince people that the DR and a pencil and time piece means of navigation is preferable to using the GPS.
Then again I have had a few low time FO's who truly didn't have a clue about flying.
Maybe it is the training they get these days?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bordeaux, France
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you have a moving map GPS of any type, there is no way you will ever not know where you are while it is working. Period.
Dunno, but I do know that pretty much ALL airspace busts in the UK are now reported, where as in the past this was not the case, and this might just have something to do with it....
Regards, SD..
PS. One point though ... I'm pretty sure airspace busts have actually increased since GPS came along. Why? Well, I really don't thinks it's just because some "foolhardy" pilots don't use it, do you?
Regards, SD..
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chuck,
How disappointing.
I didn't say preferable. In the spirit of harmony and cooperation I have gone back over my posts to try and identify what motivates reaching for the the straw man argument.
It must only come down to this line:
Which you may notice has been toned down a bit in response to Shy Torque's post.
I'll rephrase it to:
Happy yet?
Skydriller,
I would tacitly agree for a relatively recent GPS that is designed for VFR flight (with the usual provisos). However, I didn't find the GNS 420 particularly ideal in that regard.
How disappointing.
Somehow I think you are trolling because even with only 300 hours as a pilot I find it difficult to believe you are trying to convince people that the DR and a pencil and time piece means of navigation is preferable to using the GPS.
It must only come down to this line:
there is absolutely no need for a GPS during a VFR flight
I'll rephrase it to:
there is no specific necessity for the carriage of GPS for the modal average VFR sortie as undertaken in relation to private flying operations/fun/hooliganry. However, I accept that there are going to higher risk mission profiles for which additional tools (such as GPS) should be carefully considered, taking into account workload, proficiency and maintenance.
Skydriller,
If you have a moving map GPS of any type, there is no way you will ever not know where you are while it is working. Period.
Last edited by Sciolistes; 30th Dec 2008 at 04:11.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
You have to love it when a 300 hour copilot comes here to tell everyone that they have been doing it wrong for thirty five years or more.
Hmm, probably.
Last night I flew a little under 2 hours from Swansea to Booker in a 1947 built aeroplane. Note night: I was not flying in daylight.
Could I have done safely this without any electronic navaids? Probably - but probably isn't good enough and without them I'd not have tried.
The aircraft has a VOR and a GPS. I'd have accepted either, but as it happens the VOR is U/S so I used the GPS. Plus ded-reckoning, plus IFR (I Follow Roads - the M4 mostly).
Why GPS is regarded in a different light to other radio navaids escapes me. VOR works, as do VOR/VOR and VOR/DME, ADF works but is horrible and just about everything is more user friendly; and, of course, GPS works. The point, to me is that sometimes you don't need extra navaids (such as a pleasant flight around the coast in day VFR) and sometimes you do (such as my flight yesterday) you do. The experienced pilot should be capable of working out their personal dividing line as to when he or she does, or does not require them.
Electronic navaids give no cop-out from basic navigation planning and airmanship. But integrated into them it makes it easier and us safer. Doesn't matter which system.
So, on that basis I think that non-use of systems such as GPS in PPL and CPL skills tests is daft, since pilots will certainly use them after they've qualified so surely the authorities and their delegated examiners should be assessing pilots' competence in their use. Complete reliance upon them in those tests however, should certainly be a cause for a candidate to be failed.
What perhaps we do need in between is more teaching and discussion about how to integrate these various navigational tools and methods with each other, taking us beyond the repetitive yes/no arguments about GPS.
G
Last night I flew a little under 2 hours from Swansea to Booker in a 1947 built aeroplane. Note night: I was not flying in daylight.
Could I have done safely this without any electronic navaids? Probably - but probably isn't good enough and without them I'd not have tried.
The aircraft has a VOR and a GPS. I'd have accepted either, but as it happens the VOR is U/S so I used the GPS. Plus ded-reckoning, plus IFR (I Follow Roads - the M4 mostly).
Why GPS is regarded in a different light to other radio navaids escapes me. VOR works, as do VOR/VOR and VOR/DME, ADF works but is horrible and just about everything is more user friendly; and, of course, GPS works. The point, to me is that sometimes you don't need extra navaids (such as a pleasant flight around the coast in day VFR) and sometimes you do (such as my flight yesterday) you do. The experienced pilot should be capable of working out their personal dividing line as to when he or she does, or does not require them.
Electronic navaids give no cop-out from basic navigation planning and airmanship. But integrated into them it makes it easier and us safer. Doesn't matter which system.
So, on that basis I think that non-use of systems such as GPS in PPL and CPL skills tests is daft, since pilots will certainly use them after they've qualified so surely the authorities and their delegated examiners should be assessing pilots' competence in their use. Complete reliance upon them in those tests however, should certainly be a cause for a candidate to be failed.
What perhaps we do need in between is more teaching and discussion about how to integrate these various navigational tools and methods with each other, taking us beyond the repetitive yes/no arguments about GPS.
G
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: York, UK
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are still people who like the old map+compass+stopwatch method
Just a thought.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote ShyTorque:
You have to love it when a 300 hour copilot comes here to tell everyone that they have been doing it wrong for thirty five years or more.
Actually I have been doing aviation for 55 years and credit a lot of my being here to evolving with technology as it became available.
My reason for posting on the private pilot forum is to hopefully encourage private pilots to evolve past their PPL training and embrace modern technology that may one day save your life.
As to your being disappointed by my comments Sciolistes I apologize for having copied your own post here, however there is a reality in aviation that when you take a position on something that does not fit well with some of the other posters here your position will be measured by your background and exposure to the world of flying.
Here is a make believe situation whereby you may measure your real level of knowledge and experience level as a pilot and thus the value of your advice regarding the art of flying.
I used to be in the business of ferrying aircraft all over the world, now lets assume I need a pilot to move an airplane from say Miami to Berlin, would your credentials be sufficient for me to hire you as PIC to ferry said aircraft?
You have to love it when a 300 hour copilot comes here to tell everyone that they have been doing it wrong for thirty five years or more.
Actually I have been doing aviation for 55 years and credit a lot of my being here to evolving with technology as it became available.
My reason for posting on the private pilot forum is to hopefully encourage private pilots to evolve past their PPL training and embrace modern technology that may one day save your life.
As to your being disappointed by my comments Sciolistes I apologize for having copied your own post here, however there is a reality in aviation that when you take a position on something that does not fit well with some of the other posters here your position will be measured by your background and exposure to the world of flying.
Here is a make believe situation whereby you may measure your real level of knowledge and experience level as a pilot and thus the value of your advice regarding the art of flying.
I used to be in the business of ferrying aircraft all over the world, now lets assume I need a pilot to move an airplane from say Miami to Berlin, would your credentials be sufficient for me to hire you as PIC to ferry said aircraft?
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The experienced pilot should be capable of working out their personal dividing line as to when he or she does, or does not require them.
Electronic navaids give no cop-out from basic navigation planning and airmanship. But integrated into them it makes it easier and us safer. Doesn't matter which system.
So, on that basis I think that non-use of systems such as GPS in PPL and CPL skills tests is daft
So, on that basis I think that non-use of systems such as GPS in PPL and CPL skills tests is daft
Naturally, I would interested in what the examiner would do if the student called off the test because the database was out of date or the unit was faulty!
Chuck,
Fine, but it seems to me that you deliberately misconstrue my opinions into some ridiculous anti GPS tirade. Ridicule isn't my thing. Fortunately I'm not all that bothered. I may have less than 1,000hrs and only 300 of those in GA, but my comments relate to my personal experience and opinion formed thereof.
Last edited by Sciolistes; 31st Dec 2008 at 00:54.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mind you the ADF was nice to have sometimes when we couldn't get a star or sun shot with the astro compass.
Ahhh, the good 'ole days...
Loran A anyone...