Short/Soft Field (Netherthorpe) Touch&Go's for a PPL Student
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Short/Soft Field (Netherthorpe) Touch&Go's for a PPL Student
Hi Everyone!
A long time lurker here hoping to get my feet wet here on PPRuNe
My background is that I used to train for my PPL from 16-18years old at East Midlands Flying School flying C-152s. I did plenty of hours (around 48, 8 of which Solo, 3hrs Solo Nav) but wasn't close, in my eyes to test standard due to only being able to fly once every 3-4 weeks
. With my A-Levels and other commitments (i was young, so girls etc!!) and the fact I was spending my fathers money, id stopped my training when starting University.
Anyway, were now 7 years on and im going full steam ahead on my own back, thank goodness. I'm now training with Phoenix at Netherthorpe and absolutely love the new people and challenges id never met before (like landing on the numbers for starters
) and the fact the Instructors don't come and go every other month!
Theres one thing thats getting to me though...
When landing at Netherthorpe (mainly 06/24 ofcourse), in all but the perfect conditions you must use a relatively high and fast approach to be absolutely safe, which is perfectly fine with me. However, when circuit training, a flare from this relatively steep angle can often take you just past the numbers before touchdown, which makes a touch & go feel somewhat a hit & miss affair! Im now solo-ready again after 5-6 hours, but after previously having 3000m, countless orbiting, heavy traffic and 7min wake turbulence delays to play with, Netherthorpe is barely giving me more landing practise!
When the landing is good and efficient, the instructor usually takes over, quickly sets full throttle carb heat to cold and quickly gets the flaps up from 30 to 10 degrees and finally de-trim's from decent configuration to pull the nose off at 50kts, as usual.
So what i'm asking is, whilst im training, should i be asking to do this? I'm all for absolute safety; but i dont know if i'm expected to do Short/Soft field T&G, especially whilst solo. The A/C is a C-150 Aerobat with the Rolls Royce 130hp engine, so has a little more grunt than the normal 150
Thanks for reading, Ed
A long time lurker here hoping to get my feet wet here on PPRuNe
My background is that I used to train for my PPL from 16-18years old at East Midlands Flying School flying C-152s. I did plenty of hours (around 48, 8 of which Solo, 3hrs Solo Nav) but wasn't close, in my eyes to test standard due to only being able to fly once every 3-4 weeks
. With my A-Levels and other commitments (i was young, so girls etc!!) and the fact I was spending my fathers money, id stopped my training when starting University. Anyway, were now 7 years on and im going full steam ahead on my own back, thank goodness. I'm now training with Phoenix at Netherthorpe and absolutely love the new people and challenges id never met before (like landing on the numbers for starters
) and the fact the Instructors don't come and go every other month!Theres one thing thats getting to me though...
When landing at Netherthorpe (mainly 06/24 ofcourse), in all but the perfect conditions you must use a relatively high and fast approach to be absolutely safe, which is perfectly fine with me. However, when circuit training, a flare from this relatively steep angle can often take you just past the numbers before touchdown, which makes a touch & go feel somewhat a hit & miss affair! Im now solo-ready again after 5-6 hours, but after previously having 3000m, countless orbiting, heavy traffic and 7min wake turbulence delays to play with, Netherthorpe is barely giving me more landing practise!
When the landing is good and efficient, the instructor usually takes over, quickly sets full throttle carb heat to cold and quickly gets the flaps up from 30 to 10 degrees and finally de-trim's from decent configuration to pull the nose off at 50kts, as usual.
So what i'm asking is, whilst im training, should i be asking to do this? I'm all for absolute safety; but i dont know if i'm expected to do Short/Soft field T&G, especially whilst solo. The A/C is a C-150 Aerobat with the Rolls Royce 130hp engine, so has a little more grunt than the normal 150
Thanks for reading, Ed
The Original Foot
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I have recently moved to Netherthorpe as a recent post PPL. It is a great place. I have found it to be quite an odd circuit with noise abatement etc. I understand there is a club rule that Touch and Go's are only done under the supervision of Instructors. I have been with a few different ones on various orientation flights and check flights and where we have done touch and go's and at on each occassion the instructor has assisted in cleaning up the aircraft. The hedge on 24 does come up quickly!
For such approaches, I have heard a bit of debate over whether you should be just above the glide slope and relatively low power (this is where I prefer to be) or just below the glide slope with a little more power on (this makes for an easier earlier flare and gives you a bit more momentum for the go bit of touch and go). Although through my training and even now, I find I have to cope with both. In Netherthorpe, however, my view would be that you don't want to find yourself on extremes. Also, you said high and fast, I would urge you to nail the speeds, and I personally wouldn't like to fly either profile too fast.
I fly over to Sandtoft to do my Circuits, but I get the impression the instructors there don't do that. After Netherthopre - everything seems big!
Happy flying...
For such approaches, I have heard a bit of debate over whether you should be just above the glide slope and relatively low power (this is where I prefer to be) or just below the glide slope with a little more power on (this makes for an easier earlier flare and gives you a bit more momentum for the go bit of touch and go). Although through my training and even now, I find I have to cope with both. In Netherthorpe, however, my view would be that you don't want to find yourself on extremes. Also, you said high and fast, I would urge you to nail the speeds, and I personally wouldn't like to fly either profile too fast.
I fly over to Sandtoft to do my Circuits, but I get the impression the instructors there don't do that. After Netherthopre - everything seems big!
Happy flying...
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Welcome to Nethers, I also fly with Phoenix. Touch and goes at Netherthorpe can be tricky but i'm sure you'll be given control of the aircraft throughout in no time. You'll be expected to do one on your skills test with Christine, the CFI from Sheffield aero club. When I did mine for the skills test I was shown a good technique by Christine whereby using a flapless approach onto 06, a low/shallow glide path and higher approach speed and flying the aircraft onto the runway you get a good platform for an effective touch and go.
Talk to your instructor/s, they're all fantastic and they'll put your mind at rest aswell as giving you plenty of pointers.
Talk to your instructor/s, they're all fantastic and they'll put your mind at rest aswell as giving you plenty of pointers.
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Nethers certainly concentrates your mind so it should stand you in good stead.
I have to agree with BigFoot01.. nail those speeds. The approach is a tad steep but you shouldn't be fast no matter what the slope. All instructors have their own foibles so this isn't advice, but in a C152 I aim for 70kts on base before getting two stages of flap in, 65 turning final, 60 over the road (55 if I'm feeling happy) and then wipe off that speed quickly with the flare.
All of this with no power and no drag flap if you've got it right, and all of this in normal PPL training weather conditions of course. If you are doing full stops you should have stopped in around 250m - 300m.
It's normal for the instructor to clean it up. The last thing that you want is to do something daft with the flaps just when you should be concentrating. There isn't enough time or runway to make a mistake even with a high powered Aerobat.
You can't beat asking your instructor for advice though.
Just one final thing that wasn't clear from your title, make sure that you know the differences with short field, soft field, and short/soft field. You'll get plenty of chances to practice them all at EGNF.
I have to agree with BigFoot01.. nail those speeds. The approach is a tad steep but you shouldn't be fast no matter what the slope. All instructors have their own foibles so this isn't advice, but in a C152 I aim for 70kts on base before getting two stages of flap in, 65 turning final, 60 over the road (55 if I'm feeling happy) and then wipe off that speed quickly with the flare.
All of this with no power and no drag flap if you've got it right, and all of this in normal PPL training weather conditions of course. If you are doing full stops you should have stopped in around 250m - 300m.
It's normal for the instructor to clean it up. The last thing that you want is to do something daft with the flaps just when you should be concentrating. There isn't enough time or runway to make a mistake even with a high powered Aerobat.
You can't beat asking your instructor for advice though.
Just one final thing that wasn't clear from your title, make sure that you know the differences with short field, soft field, and short/soft field. You'll get plenty of chances to practice them all at EGNF.
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Thanks for your experience and input everyone, i will indeed ask my instructor but just wanted to ask here as I wont be flying for a few weeks due to a bad back 
I have always (5 instructors at EMA - lol and Phoenix) been tought to turn final at 65-70kts with 20 degrees and maintain that. Nethers added 30 degrees into the mix with a 5kt decelleration and higher glide slope. I have actually heard the CFI at SAC over the radio to Solo students telling them to nail 55kts with 30 Degrees and i find that a little close for comfort, especially with the sink just before the farm at 24!
Either way im loving the new challenges this place is giving me, i cant wait to solo it a few times. I just find the the manual flap toggle switch in the 150A's a pain in the ass being used to the 152 pre-selectors. That would make the Touch & Go's a touch easier
I have always (5 instructors at EMA - lol and Phoenix) been tought to turn final at 65-70kts with 20 degrees and maintain that. Nethers added 30 degrees into the mix with a 5kt decelleration and higher glide slope. I have actually heard the CFI at SAC over the radio to Solo students telling them to nail 55kts with 30 Degrees and i find that a little close for comfort, especially with the sink just before the farm at 24!
Either way im loving the new challenges this place is giving me, i cant wait to solo it a few times. I just find the the manual flap toggle switch in the 150A's a pain in the ass being used to the 152 pre-selectors. That would make the Touch & Go's a touch easier
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Netherthorpe Techniques
So far as I recollect, Netherthorpe requires no non-standard techniques, only very accurate flying, having I believe the shortest licensed runways in the UK. Runway 24 (1.9˚ upslope) has TORA 490m, LDA 370m, and 06, 476m, 407m respectively. Runway 18 is 382m, 357m respectively, and 36, 382m, 309 respectively. I recollect being taught that in a C150/152, to look for 40 knots at the intersection, so you can see why the Aerodrome Manual – which I commend to all pilots flying from Netherthorpe - restricts touch and goes to instructors! I am sure those who have lots of experience of EGNF could offer lots of advice. I found that regular PFLs onto the field from 2000’ overhead kept one in good practice; and when landing on 06, if the wheels were not firmly on the ground on the flat first section of the runway, go round, or risk running into the fence as many visitors have done!
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Beware, the biggest risk for touch and go's on short strips is to be concerned by the take off part during the flare.
If you are uncomfortable with the length available, make it a full stop landing and backtrack.
My experience is you need to stay fully focussed on the landing part till on the ground and in control. Only then to make the decision for a go around or a full stop landing, which will only leave you a fraction of a second.
Good luck!
If you are uncomfortable with the length available, make it a full stop landing and backtrack.
My experience is you need to stay fully focussed on the landing part till on the ground and in control. Only then to make the decision for a go around or a full stop landing, which will only leave you a fraction of a second.
Good luck!
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You must go with what your instructors say but there are a few odd comments here on a short landing.
Firstly I have never heard about being high on the glideslope for a short landing unless there is some sort of obstruction on the approach.
The same goes with an idle engine. How do you know if it will spool up when you need it or infact if the engine has stopped with an idle engine?
Zero flap for a short field? never heard that one either especially to flatten your approach.
The best method for a short field landing is to be slightly low on the glideslope so that there is some power to maintain your glide and speed.
Full flap when assured of landing.
The extra power will give you extra control over the elevator and rudder and you will be able to control your touchdown point easier with a slightly draggy approach.
It is all about flying an accurate profile and speed. Keep your sight just before the numbers so that when you chop the throttle and flare the aircraft should settle onto the numbers.
But as I stress there maybe different safety techniques for low time pilots so go with what you are taught.
Pace
Firstly I have never heard about being high on the glideslope for a short landing unless there is some sort of obstruction on the approach.
The same goes with an idle engine. How do you know if it will spool up when you need it or infact if the engine has stopped with an idle engine?
Zero flap for a short field? never heard that one either especially to flatten your approach.
The best method for a short field landing is to be slightly low on the glideslope so that there is some power to maintain your glide and speed.
Full flap when assured of landing.
The extra power will give you extra control over the elevator and rudder and you will be able to control your touchdown point easier with a slightly draggy approach.
It is all about flying an accurate profile and speed. Keep your sight just before the numbers so that when you chop the throttle and flare the aircraft should settle onto the numbers.
But as I stress there maybe different safety techniques for low time pilots so go with what you are taught.
Pace
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I'm not sure that there are odd comments, just thoughts from those of us who fly from there. Nethers is a tiny sloping grass airfield crammed between roads, hedges and tall trees. 'Slightly low' isn't really an option, neither is getting it wrong and floating down the runway waiting for speed to ease off. There's nothing especially hard, it just needs accuracy.
Here's what it looks like.
netherthorpe airfield - Google Maps
Come and say hello, we don't bite, but the holes in the hedges should concentrate the mind!
Here's what it looks like.
netherthorpe airfield - Google Maps
Come and say hello, we don't bite, but the holes in the hedges should concentrate the mind!
Last edited by eltonioni; 19th Aug 2008 at 23:03.
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I used to be a member at SAC (about 10 years ago) and it is good to see that Netherthorpe still creates its own discussion. Everyone who flies from there has their own stories to tell
Eltonioni - you might not bite, but it wasn't exactly they friendliest welcome I received when I went for a visit. Seems the old in fighting is still there
Eltonioni - you might not bite, but it wasn't exactly they friendliest welcome I received when I went for a visit. Seems the old in fighting is still there
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Zero flap for a short field? never heard that one either especially to flatten your approach.
If you intend to do a 'touch-and-go' at any airfield, then land with whatever flap you are prepared to take off with. This means you dont have that messy retracting the flap on the runway, and you will be much less likely to retract the wheels just after landing later in your flying career. In a Cessna 150 I would suggest 20 degrees. (25 degrees in the PA28) Then take off without touching anything, and retract the flaps in the climb. You will then find that the aircraft is almost perfectly trimmed for the climb. In the Cessna approach at 70mph/60kt reducing to 60mph/50kt at the threshold
MJ <<< runs for cover
MJ <<< runs for cover
Last edited by Mach Jump; 29th Aug 2008 at 22:27.
The Original Foot
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It's an interesting point, but I suspect it's generally not taught that way, as when you have to do an unplanned go-around, you might lapse into your touch and go routine. Then by the time you are good enough where the workload is less of any issue, changing the flap settings becomes less of an issue.
I agree flapless into Netherthorpe isn't a problem, I don't know if I'd fancy turning that into a touch and go, but that could be me! (I usually put one stage down even for a Cross Wind as a bit of a compromise) - could be my turn to duck.
I agree flapless into Netherthorpe isn't a problem, I don't know if I'd fancy turning that into a touch and go, but that could be me! (I usually put one stage down even for a Cross Wind as a bit of a compromise) - could be my turn to duck.
