The Coventry Incident - the ONLY thread?
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The Coventry Incident - the ONLY thread?
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From the bbc.....
Two light planes collide mid-air
Map of area
Five people have been killed when two light aircraft crashed in Warwickshire after colliding mid-air.
West Midlands Ambulance said one aircraft crashed into Brandon Woods in Coventry. The other crashed into a field between Brinklow and the city.
It is understood both planes were making their final approach to the airport when they collided.
The Air Accident Investigation Branch is aware and emergency services are in attendance.
Map of area
Five people have been killed when two light aircraft crashed in Warwickshire after colliding mid-air.
West Midlands Ambulance said one aircraft crashed into Brandon Woods in Coventry. The other crashed into a field between Brinklow and the city.
It is understood both planes were making their final approach to the airport when they collided.
The Air Accident Investigation Branch is aware and emergency services are in attendance.
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Plea for Coventry air crash witnesses
Aug 18 2008 By Michaelm Corley
STUNNED emergency service workers have vowed to launch a thorough investigation after Coventry and Warwickshire suffered one of its worst air disasters.
The mid-air collision, which claimed five lives, sparked a massive search-and-rescue operation which covered a three-mile radius between Coombe Abbey and Binley Woods.
Speaking just a few hundred yards from where debris had landed on Brinklow Road, Det Supt Adrian McGee, of Warwickshire Police, said yesterday: "How they collided and how they came to the collision we still do not know.
"Our main aim now is to recover the bodies as quickly as we can.
"Then we will conduct a thorough investigation. "We already have witnesses and two sites of debris to check.
"But we need more witnesses, and we appeal to anyone who saw anything to contact us."
He confirmed that both pilots had been in touch with Coventry Airport's air traffic control just moments before the disaster happened.
Mick Leach, incident commander of Warwickshire Fire and Rescue Service, said: "At the moment our thoughts are really on getting the task done.
"Clearly there are a lot of people who are going to get some very distressing news.
"Our priority is that we can retrieve the bodies as quickly as possible and that those relatives can be notified and can have time and privacy to mourn their loss."
He added that specialist equipment, including lifting, cutting and lighting gear, had been called in to help with the recovery operation.
Three paramedic officers, an ambulance and the Warwickshire and Northamptonshire Air Ambulance had also been sent to the scene.
Richard Topping, of West Midlands Ambulance Service, was at home in Rugby when the call came in.
He said: "We received several calls to say two light aircraft had been in a collision to the east of the Coventry Road.
"The services arrived and the situation was very confused.
"All five persons were confirmed dead at the scene."
Mr Topping said the nearest home was about two miles away from the crash site.
He added: "We were all working together - the police, the fire service, the ambulance services and the police air operation to locate the scene.
"There was significant wreckage over the area."
Emergency service workers confirmed that the single-engined aircraft came down in a field close to Coventry Road - between Brinklow and Coventry. The pilot was confirmed dead at the scene.
The other aircraft, a twin-engined Cessna, came down in Birchley Wood.
Four people, including the pilot, were confirmed dead at the scene by the doctor from the Warwickshire and Northamptonshire Air Ambulance.
A West Midlands Ambulance Service spokesman said: "The helicopter assisted the ambulance service by making it easier to find the locations of the two aircraft which were approximately a mile apart.
"Sadly there was nothing that could be done other than the grim task of confirming the deaths of the five people."
Aug 18 2008 By Michaelm Corley
STUNNED emergency service workers have vowed to launch a thorough investigation after Coventry and Warwickshire suffered one of its worst air disasters.
The mid-air collision, which claimed five lives, sparked a massive search-and-rescue operation which covered a three-mile radius between Coombe Abbey and Binley Woods.
Speaking just a few hundred yards from where debris had landed on Brinklow Road, Det Supt Adrian McGee, of Warwickshire Police, said yesterday: "How they collided and how they came to the collision we still do not know.
"Our main aim now is to recover the bodies as quickly as we can.
"Then we will conduct a thorough investigation. "We already have witnesses and two sites of debris to check.
"But we need more witnesses, and we appeal to anyone who saw anything to contact us."
He confirmed that both pilots had been in touch with Coventry Airport's air traffic control just moments before the disaster happened.
Mick Leach, incident commander of Warwickshire Fire and Rescue Service, said: "At the moment our thoughts are really on getting the task done.
"Clearly there are a lot of people who are going to get some very distressing news.
"Our priority is that we can retrieve the bodies as quickly as possible and that those relatives can be notified and can have time and privacy to mourn their loss."
He added that specialist equipment, including lifting, cutting and lighting gear, had been called in to help with the recovery operation.
Three paramedic officers, an ambulance and the Warwickshire and Northamptonshire Air Ambulance had also been sent to the scene.
Richard Topping, of West Midlands Ambulance Service, was at home in Rugby when the call came in.
He said: "We received several calls to say two light aircraft had been in a collision to the east of the Coventry Road.
"The services arrived and the situation was very confused.
"All five persons were confirmed dead at the scene."
Mr Topping said the nearest home was about two miles away from the crash site.
He added: "We were all working together - the police, the fire service, the ambulance services and the police air operation to locate the scene.
"There was significant wreckage over the area."
Emergency service workers confirmed that the single-engined aircraft came down in a field close to Coventry Road - between Brinklow and Coventry. The pilot was confirmed dead at the scene.
The other aircraft, a twin-engined Cessna, came down in Birchley Wood.
Four people, including the pilot, were confirmed dead at the scene by the doctor from the Warwickshire and Northamptonshire Air Ambulance.
A West Midlands Ambulance Service spokesman said: "The helicopter assisted the ambulance service by making it easier to find the locations of the two aircraft which were approximately a mile apart.
"Sadly there was nothing that could be done other than the grim task of confirming the deaths of the five people."
While I don't usually see a problem with accident discussions on here, I hadn't realised that the bodies are still in situ so out of respect I will not be posting further on this subject until the bodies have been recovered and the pilots officially identified.
My condolences to the families of the deceased at this difficult time.
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I posted this on the original thread (most likely deleted by the thread starter; it happens - I deleted the Graham Hill thread because some ATCOs didnt like me repeating stuff that's already been written in some books covering the incident)
The UK average is about one per year over the last 10 years. All except one were below 1000ft; the last one (not the current one) was reportedly at 1800ft, and this one (assuming 2 to 2.5nm from runway, as reported) would have likely also been below 1000ft. Clearly, the risk is at very low levels.
All were in VMC. The last civilian GA IMC mid-air in UK airspace was reportedly c. 1942.
Very much agree. Especially as so many GA AAIB reports are highly speculative in the really important areas (no CVR, no FDR).
The one thing I would like to know is what clearance, if any, the SE pilot had. The collision would appear to be within the ATZ.
I'm amazed we don't bump into each other more often than we actually do and delighted too.
All were in VMC. The last civilian GA IMC mid-air in UK airspace was reportedly c. 1942.
I think it would be helpful if the AAIB issued a brief stement of the FACTS as known, within 24 hrs of a high profile incident like this, to help prevent speculation. I believe the NTSB in the USA do something like this. It could include whether next of kin have been informed or not. The problem is that waiting for the full report will take up to a year, and callous though it might seem, most of us will have forgotten the incident.
The one thing I would like to know is what clearance, if any, the SE pilot had. The collision would appear to be within the ATZ.
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Haven't seen the old thread for a few hours, but saw this:
BMAA Online
It is being widely reported that the mid-air collision at Coventry on 17th August involved a microlight aircraft. Using the CAA UK Register I have confirmed that the aircraft was not a microlight. It was a two seat homebuilt light aircraft from the LAA fleet.
Irrespective of aircraft type I would like to offer the condolences of all the BMAA membership to the families and friends of the pilots and passengers of the two aircraft.
Geoff Weighell 08-2008
Rod1 suggested an aircraft type in the old thread, and this may confirm that suggestion.
BMAA Online
It is being widely reported that the mid-air collision at Coventry on 17th August involved a microlight aircraft. Using the CAA UK Register I have confirmed that the aircraft was not a microlight. It was a two seat homebuilt light aircraft from the LAA fleet.
Irrespective of aircraft type I would like to offer the condolences of all the BMAA membership to the families and friends of the pilots and passengers of the two aircraft.
Geoff Weighell 08-2008
Rod1 suggested an aircraft type in the old thread, and this may confirm that suggestion.
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If thread has been lost I hope it was during an attempt to move it to a more suitable and respectful position. Private Flying was absoultely the wrong place for it to be...the Crew of the RVL aircraft were fellow professionals flying for a Commercial purpose.
Can i suggest that if Rumours and News wasn't deemed suitable then maybe Bizjets and GA might.
Cheers
Can i suggest that if Rumours and News wasn't deemed suitable then maybe Bizjets and GA might.
Cheers
Red On, Green On
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The collision would appear to be within the ATZ.
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I had it down as about ½ a mile outside the ATZ. If, as has been reported, both aircraft were inbound, one would have expected both to be talking to the same people. Does Coventry fly a large circuit? Could the Smaller aircraft have been X wind and the 402 on a straight in?
Rod1
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I am afraid all 8 pages of the original thread are gone.
We've made a thorough check of the logs since I last wrote and they clearly indicate the thread was deleted by Danny.
He is adamant that he did no such thing and at the moment we are drilling down deeper into the software to see if it it a further 'spinnoff' of the dire consequences of changes made in America to the site last Friday.
All I can do is offer a straightforward apology to everyone reading this thread. Yet another hideous snafu to complete a dire weekend for the service PPRuNe should but hasn't offered.
The subject is absolutely open to discussion, informed speculation and, most importantly, operations such as the approach on 23 beginning in open airspace.
The information, tributes and the safety discussion regarding transponders, whether mode S or not, is a loss to us all whatever licence we hold. The immediate aftermath of a tragedy such as this provides a vital window when entrenched views and dogma are open to change. The simple fact is that when the report is issued any resulting thread is miniscule by comparison both in size, quality and in the power to change minds.
And for that reason Danny and I apologise once more and unreservedly.
Rob Lloyd
We've made a thorough check of the logs since I last wrote and they clearly indicate the thread was deleted by Danny.
He is adamant that he did no such thing and at the moment we are drilling down deeper into the software to see if it it a further 'spinnoff' of the dire consequences of changes made in America to the site last Friday.
All I can do is offer a straightforward apology to everyone reading this thread. Yet another hideous snafu to complete a dire weekend for the service PPRuNe should but hasn't offered.
The subject is absolutely open to discussion, informed speculation and, most importantly, operations such as the approach on 23 beginning in open airspace.
The information, tributes and the safety discussion regarding transponders, whether mode S or not, is a loss to us all whatever licence we hold. The immediate aftermath of a tragedy such as this provides a vital window when entrenched views and dogma are open to change. The simple fact is that when the report is issued any resulting thread is miniscule by comparison both in size, quality and in the power to change minds.
And for that reason Danny and I apologise once more and unreservedly.
Rob Lloyd
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last discussion before the thread went to the stars was about the identity of the SEP.
Via the Flyer website found this posting on the BMAAe site.
18-Aug-2008 - Mid-Air collision at Coventry
It is being widely reported that the mid-air collision at Coventry on 17th August involved a microlight aircraft.
Using the CAA UK Register I have confirmed that the aircraft was not a microlight. It was a two seat homebuilt light aircraft from the LAA fleet.
Irrespective of aircraft type I would like to offer the condolences of all the BMAA membership to the families and friends of the pilots and passengers of the two aircraft.
Geoff Weighell 08-2008
Why this secrecy? What type of plane was it and where was it based?
Via the Flyer website found this posting on the BMAAe site.
18-Aug-2008 - Mid-Air collision at Coventry
It is being widely reported that the mid-air collision at Coventry on 17th August involved a microlight aircraft.
Using the CAA UK Register I have confirmed that the aircraft was not a microlight. It was a two seat homebuilt light aircraft from the LAA fleet.
Irrespective of aircraft type I would like to offer the condolences of all the BMAA membership to the families and friends of the pilots and passengers of the two aircraft.
Geoff Weighell 08-2008
Why this secrecy? What type of plane was it and where was it based?
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Firstly condolences to those involved and also to those at CVT ATC whom no doubt feel pretty shaken.
There does need to be a debate at an appropriate time, probably on another thread regarding CVT as Pprune Towers eludes.
The approach to 23 is in open airspace through a corridor of traffic that routes north to south via the Lichfield NDB east of BHX and west of EMA. On the other side of the M1 there is Husbands Bosworth, one of the busiest glider sites in the UK. As a regular user of this airspace, you need alot of eyes to keep a good continual watchout and CVT can be found to be busy.
Extending the class D controlled airspace towards Bitteswell VRP maybe one recommendation that comes out of this tragedy.
There does need to be a debate at an appropriate time, probably on another thread regarding CVT as Pprune Towers eludes.
The approach to 23 is in open airspace through a corridor of traffic that routes north to south via the Lichfield NDB east of BHX and west of EMA. On the other side of the M1 there is Husbands Bosworth, one of the busiest glider sites in the UK. As a regular user of this airspace, you need alot of eyes to keep a good continual watchout and CVT can be found to be busy.
Extending the class D controlled airspace towards Bitteswell VRP maybe one recommendation that comes out of this tragedy.
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ComJam,
this accident has also affected private flyers, inparticularly the light aircraft pilot involved in this incident. Respect comes in many forms and this is as good a place as any for private flyers and those of us aspiring to commercial flight to pass on condolances and also to speculate a little, its our nature to do so.
this accident has also affected private flyers, inparticularly the light aircraft pilot involved in this incident. Respect comes in many forms and this is as good a place as any for private flyers and those of us aspiring to commercial flight to pass on condolances and also to speculate a little, its our nature to do so.
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The thread may still be recoverable, it's probably still in the database, but needs some expert SQL poking to retrieve. Seen it before.
BTW, I'm a gliderpilot, and the importance of a constant lookout is drilled into us. We also have the benefit of excellent visibility from our cockpits with no pillars for other aircraft to hide behind. Never hurts to say it again -- an effective, constant horizon scan can be vital, especially in areas where aircraft congregate.
There's also the Flarm system which is very popular in Europe, but not so much in the UK. I hope that changes; it's no replacement for a lookout, but as someone testing Flarm once said, "it's the one you don't see that matters".
BTW, I'm a gliderpilot, and the importance of a constant lookout is drilled into us. We also have the benefit of excellent visibility from our cockpits with no pillars for other aircraft to hide behind. Never hurts to say it again -- an effective, constant horizon scan can be vital, especially in areas where aircraft congregate.
There's also the Flarm system which is very popular in Europe, but not so much in the UK. I hope that changes; it's no replacement for a lookout, but as someone testing Flarm once said, "it's the one you don't see that matters".
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Condolences and thoughts for all those involved.
I was visiting the Ryton Organic Gardens at Ryton on Dunsmore on Friday afternoon, my first visit to that area just East of Coventry, situated slightly to the South of the approach, and under a very busy piece of airspace.
Singles, twins, a helicopter, two historic flight aircraft, faster traffic overtaking slower aircraft, and all turning to make approaches into Coventry. I had no idea the place was so busy GA-wise.
I'm just a layman enthusiast, not a flyer, so I make no judgement or inference whatsoever, I just report what I saw on Friday.
EGCA
I was visiting the Ryton Organic Gardens at Ryton on Dunsmore on Friday afternoon, my first visit to that area just East of Coventry, situated slightly to the South of the approach, and under a very busy piece of airspace.
Singles, twins, a helicopter, two historic flight aircraft, faster traffic overtaking slower aircraft, and all turning to make approaches into Coventry. I had no idea the place was so busy GA-wise.
I'm just a layman enthusiast, not a flyer, so I make no judgement or inference whatsoever, I just report what I saw on Friday.
EGCA
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Well as for where the original went, it looked to me as if someone had tried to restore it to R&N, but if the "Moved To" device was still operating, one could imagine what kind of spiral dive that could create! Meantime, I am sure someone in PPRuNe proper will find enough of it to do a proper restoration job soon.
As for the type of the SEP, someone on seemingly good authority in the original thread (I think it was Rod1 ) said he'd been told it was a XXX ... I found some library images on Google ... looks quite a decent bit of kit.
As for the type of the SEP, someone on seemingly good authority in the original thread (I think it was Rod1 ) said he'd been told it was a XXX ... I found some library images on Google ... looks quite a decent bit of kit.
Last edited by slip and turn; 18th Aug 2008 at 14:39. Reason: oops! ... in case egbt below is correct, although Rod said he knew several who flew the type ...
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Stormvector, let us get one thing straight here.
You started a thread on R&N. It was the wrong forum and should have been in Private Flying. In this forum 4 other people decided to start a thread on the same subject. The simple fact is that we do not allow that.
Between us, PPRuNe Towers and I had to merge the other threads. Yours in R&N I closed but you can add it to this thread if you wish.
As PT said, we have had a time of it since Friday, and no one is trying harder than the mods to ensure that PPRuNe is running at its best.
PPP
You started a thread on R&N. It was the wrong forum and should have been in Private Flying. In this forum 4 other people decided to start a thread on the same subject. The simple fact is that we do not allow that.
Between us, PPRuNe Towers and I had to merge the other threads. Yours in R&N I closed but you can add it to this thread if you wish.
As PT said, we have had a time of it since Friday, and no one is trying harder than the mods to ensure that PPRuNe is running at its best.
PPP