GA The "Terrorism Act" and Big Brother!
"That's a very strange view. Lots and lots of microlights get to cross the Irish Sea. "
Genuine question .. Sorry, I hadn't realised that microlights made trips across that stretch of water quite so often ...
....
Anyway .. on a practical level I think you'll find that if an ATC clearance is req/d it's not subject to any "police approval".... it's up to you to comply with any police/home office etc requirements ..
Wasn't there some sort of CTA zone conference/meeting recently at Govt. level to discuss the current arrangements?
I believe that Islander's interpretation/understanding of the requirements is actually correct.... as are the concerns that police are too ready to overstep their authority and the erosion of civil liberties.
It does seem a bit daft to have these requirements in that travelling by road from Nth to Sth Ireland has no controls, or even any sign that you're crossing the border (other than the road gets better going south!! & the sgins are in Kms).
Genuine question .. Sorry, I hadn't realised that microlights made trips across that stretch of water quite so often ...
.... Anyway .. on a practical level I think you'll find that if an ATC clearance is req/d it's not subject to any "police approval".... it's up to you to comply with any police/home office etc requirements ..
Wasn't there some sort of CTA zone conference/meeting recently at Govt. level to discuss the current arrangements?
I believe that Islander's interpretation/understanding of the requirements is actually correct.... as are the concerns that police are too ready to overstep their authority and the erosion of civil liberties.
It does seem a bit daft to have these requirements in that travelling by road from Nth to Sth Ireland has no controls, or even any sign that you're crossing the border (other than the road gets better going south!! & the sgins are in Kms).
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Sorry Mixture, but Islander is correct.
There is no authorisation for a non hire/reward flight. There is simply a requirement to give notice. Giving notice is not seeking authorisation implied or otherwise.
Failure to give notice does not mean that you have not received authorisation. It simply means that you've failed to comply with your obligations under the law, which you are answerable to the courts for. If you were prosocuted for this, you would be procecuted for failure to notify as required by Schedule 7, Section 12(3) and not for failure to get authorisation.
Stop trying to introduce words into the legislation that don't appear there.
dp
There is no authorisation for a non hire/reward flight. There is simply a requirement to give notice. Giving notice is not seeking authorisation implied or otherwise.
Failure to give notice does not mean that you have not received authorisation. It simply means that you've failed to comply with your obligations under the law, which you are answerable to the courts for. If you were prosocuted for this, you would be procecuted for failure to notify as required by Schedule 7, Section 12(3) and not for failure to get authorisation.
Stop trying to introduce words into the legislation that don't appear there.
dp
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Apparently due to the local setup various not very nice people have been using that route to get drugs into the country using microlights. They go feet dry between Blackpool and Liverpool and disappear off towards the manch low level corridor to land who knows where.
I presume as usual a few have managed to muck things up for the law abiding majority.
The information about the drug runners was given to me by a local pilot when I had a close encounter with an untracable microlight.
I presume as usual a few have managed to muck things up for the law abiding majority.
The information about the drug runners was given to me by a local pilot when I had a close encounter with an untracable microlight.
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Dublin Pilot: Spot on, 'nuf said 
Mad Jock: Interesting, perhaps the letter should have been addressed to 'Dear potential drug smuggler'. I'm sure that polite approach would generate a cooperative response from the guilty party
I'm not having a go at you, I never shoot the messenger. However, if the reason behind the communication is the situation you have described, I would have to (generously) rate it as utterly inept.
Mad Jock: Interesting, perhaps the letter should have been addressed to 'Dear potential drug smuggler'. I'm sure that polite approach would generate a cooperative response from the guilty party
I'm not having a go at you, I never shoot the messenger. However, if the reason behind the communication is the situation you have described, I would have to (generously) rate it as utterly inept.
Thank you all for the replies.I actually fly a Eurostar. Athough a microlight, it is more than capable of international flights.
I will be contacting Cheshire Police to seek some clarification on whether the wording of the letter is correct.A couple of the paragraphs seem muddled
The Terrorism Act impacts upon general aviation and the responsibilities of pilots/owners.One of the requirements to seek authority to fly to and from the common travel area(Channel Islands, Isle of Man,Northern Ireland and Eire)from non designated airfields remains.It is however worthy of note that the notification period has been reduced from 24 hrs to 12 hrs, for administration purposes.
It is an offence to fail to comply with this requirement.
It is recommended that if you are flying to or from a non designated Cheshire airfield having flown direct from or direct to any destination outside mainland UK, that you submit a flight notification to the Cheshire Constabulary Ports Unit.
I'm now a little confused
is the notification a requirement, or as the last paragraph states only recommended.
What do other Police forces around the country ask for ?
. Athough a microlight, it is more than capable of international flights.I will be contacting Cheshire Police to seek some clarification on whether the wording of the letter is correct.A couple of the paragraphs seem muddled
The Terrorism Act impacts upon general aviation and the responsibilities of pilots/owners.One of the requirements to seek authority to fly to and from the common travel area(Channel Islands, Isle of Man,Northern Ireland and Eire)from non designated airfields remains.It is however worthy of note that the notification period has been reduced from 24 hrs to 12 hrs, for administration purposes.
It is an offence to fail to comply with this requirement.
It is recommended that if you are flying to or from a non designated Cheshire airfield having flown direct from or direct to any destination outside mainland UK, that you submit a flight notification to the Cheshire Constabulary Ports Unit.
I'm now a little confused
is the notification a requirement, or as the last paragraph states only recommended.What do other Police forces around the country ask for ?
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I'm now a little confused is the notification a requirement, or as the last paragraph states only recommended.
is the notification a requirement, or as the last paragraph states only recommended.
The legislative requirement for notification relates only to private flights within the Common Travel Area. Yet here you have a local police force seeking to extend their snooping activities to all overseas private flights.
I am reminded of my visit to the Military/Civil Air Safety Day at RAF Wattisham in May 2007. We had to submit written details of the flight, aeroplane and people on board for MoD security checks long before the event. Most people (me included) have absolutely no problem with that, it is after all an active service station. Then local plod involved themselves, and required in addition that all airborne visitors submit to them a GAR Form, even though the flights were inland.
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It seems that somebody is trying to build a database/record of flights abroad. The question is just what is the motive? is it somebody trying to justify their existence or do they really think it is acceptable to attempt to make people feel obliged to comply with expectations beyond any legal remit they may have? either way, I'm not impressed. I would simply comply with the known legal requirements and ignore everything else from them.
As for local plod wanting a GAR form for an internal flight !!!!! This sort of nonsense needs to be challenged. They have no power to require that. If you are refused permission to fly in to the military station as a result, you have evidence of further erosion of civil liberties that the people stationed at that location are so bravely defending.
Or, as Terry Wogan says in the mornings... "Is it me?"
As for local plod wanting a GAR form for an internal flight !!!!! This sort of nonsense needs to be challenged. They have no power to require that. If you are refused permission to fly in to the military station as a result, you have evidence of further erosion of civil liberties that the people stationed at that location are so bravely defending.
Or, as Terry Wogan says in the mornings... "Is it me?"
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It seems that somebody is trying to build a database/record of flights abroad
On the face of it, the GAR requirement for Ireland etc does not make sense and never did, because even the IRA are not so stupid as to not realise they can travel via e.g. France and avoid the GAR declaration.
The purpose which it served, however, is that (hopefully) a number of the IRA were known to MI6 but they didn't know they were known to them. So they travelled under their real identities, pretending to be going on holiday, business, etc. In any case, travelling under your real ID is much safer because it cannot be blown.
This enabled MI6 to watch these people easily.
It also enabled other 'operators' to be identified from their travelling patterns.
And this is still the case today. Your details are automatically passed to MI6 etc by airline and ferry operators. Special Branch can see flight plans online anyway.
It's the same thing as traffic analysis of electronic communications. You do not really need to read the contents of the traffic itself.
I don't see any purpose in the 12hr notification for the CTA given that it is so trivial to avoid it by going via France. It would make more sense if it was mandatory for all foreign flights but it already is effectively so for incoming ones, via the mandatory GAR sent to Immigration.
My guess is that while MI6 obviously have access to all the declarations no matter who they are sent to, there is some sort of power battle (job preservation i.e. job creation) within Special Branch who are facing an increased centralisation in intelligence gathering and who are trying to hold on to at least some work.
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This thread subject reminded me of an similar case discussed here by Say again Slowly. Have a read of this.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/private...ism-laws.html?
Full text of Cheshire Constabulary notice as received and forwarded by a friend (apart from which I know no more at this stage):
Cheshire Constabulary, Ports Unit, Room 2009, Constabulary Headquarters, Clemonds Hey, Oakmere Road, Winsford, Cheshire, CW7 2UA
Dear Sir/Madam
Re: General Aviation
Aviation within the UK has a number of agencies involved in its security. Only with the assistance of those working within it and the travelling public, can we continue to maintain the security of the industry as well as deterring and detecting crime such as illegal immigration and smuggling.
The Terrorism Act impacts upon general aviation and the responsibilities of pilot/owners. One of the requirements is to seek authority to fly to and from the common travel area (Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, and Eire) from non designated airfields remains. It is however worthy of note that the notification period has been reduced from 24 hrs to 12 hrs, for administrative purposes.
It is an offence to fail to comply with this requirement.
It is recommended that if you are flying to or from a non-designated Cheshire airfield having flown direct from or travelling direct to any destination outside mainland UK, that you submit a flight notification to the Cheshire Constabulary Ports Unit.
Officers from the unit will make periodic visits to airfields in order to meet owners, pilots and operators. If you need advice, further information, or have any suggestion then please contact the department. We hope to establish a more effective working relationship with the general aviation fraternity of Cheshire.
In light of this we would be grateful if you could complete the following proforma and return it is the prepaid envelope or alternatively email the details to the following address [email protected]
Many thanks in anticipation of your help.
(Signed) Steve JACKSON (No rank or title noted)
Second page is the proforma with details as outlined in Post 1.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/private...ism-laws.html?
Full text of Cheshire Constabulary notice as received and forwarded by a friend (apart from which I know no more at this stage):
Cheshire Constabulary, Ports Unit, Room 2009, Constabulary Headquarters, Clemonds Hey, Oakmere Road, Winsford, Cheshire, CW7 2UA
Dear Sir/Madam
Re: General Aviation
Aviation within the UK has a number of agencies involved in its security. Only with the assistance of those working within it and the travelling public, can we continue to maintain the security of the industry as well as deterring and detecting crime such as illegal immigration and smuggling.
The Terrorism Act impacts upon general aviation and the responsibilities of pilot/owners. One of the requirements is to seek authority to fly to and from the common travel area (Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, and Eire) from non designated airfields remains. It is however worthy of note that the notification period has been reduced from 24 hrs to 12 hrs, for administrative purposes.
It is an offence to fail to comply with this requirement.
It is recommended that if you are flying to or from a non-designated Cheshire airfield having flown direct from or travelling direct to any destination outside mainland UK, that you submit a flight notification to the Cheshire Constabulary Ports Unit.
Officers from the unit will make periodic visits to airfields in order to meet owners, pilots and operators. If you need advice, further information, or have any suggestion then please contact the department. We hope to establish a more effective working relationship with the general aviation fraternity of Cheshire.
In light of this we would be grateful if you could complete the following proforma and return it is the prepaid envelope or alternatively email the details to the following address [email protected]
Many thanks in anticipation of your help.
(Signed) Steve JACKSON (No rank or title noted)
Second page is the proforma with details as outlined in Post 1.
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On the face of it, the GAR requirement for Ireland etc does not make sense and never did, because even the IRA are not so stupid as to not realise they can travel via e.g. France and avoid the GAR declaration.
My guess is that while MI6 obviously have access to all the declarations no matter who they are sent to, there is some sort of power battle (job preservation i.e. job creation) within Special Branch who are facing an increased centralisation in intelligence gathering and who are trying to hold on to at least some work.
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This issues is very fully covered in the thread linked above in ANW's post.
Mixture has unfortunately confused matters. Authorisation is not the same as notice and this argument is what has allowed the police to misquote the Act. Authorisation implies something that cannot be done without consent. This is not the case with private GA flights under the 2000 Act. Notice means exactly that. The police have no power to demand positive authorisation before a flight can take place. They have power to prevent a particular flight if grounds exist under the Act, but that is different from what is being suggested here.
The Cheshire Constabulary letter is a mis-statement of the law in so far as it relates to non commercial flights.
The police have powert to request information about a flight. The information they can demand is in the Regulation which I quoted in the linked thread. It only applies to flights to or from the CTA and not to flights within Great Britain.
Mixture has unfortunately confused matters. Authorisation is not the same as notice and this argument is what has allowed the police to misquote the Act. Authorisation implies something that cannot be done without consent. This is not the case with private GA flights under the 2000 Act. Notice means exactly that. The police have no power to demand positive authorisation before a flight can take place. They have power to prevent a particular flight if grounds exist under the Act, but that is different from what is being suggested here.
The Cheshire Constabulary letter is a mis-statement of the law in so far as it relates to non commercial flights.
The police have powert to request information about a flight. The information they can demand is in the Regulation which I quoted in the linked thread. It only applies to flights to or from the CTA and not to flights within Great Britain.
Moderator
Wow, From an outside (Canadian) viewpoint, this whole thing seems REALLY big brother-ish to me. You are required to notify the police before you takeoff from certain (smaller) private runways to fly to the islands? It amazes me that this invasion on personal behavior is tolerated. Particularly when it seems to be so poorly understood! I can understand that the governments involved seek to apply customs and immigration regulation to international ARRIVALS, but departures?
Many years ago (before 911) Canada customs had a program of telephone notification of private aircraft arrivals into Canada (non-commercial departures required no customs/immigration notification, though still a flight plan). The arrival under this plan had to be to a designated aerodrome. I asked if I could have my private home runway so designated, and the answer was yes. The major condition was that I had to give written permission to the local police to come and look around whenever they wanted. With nothing to hide, I did not seek to avoid this granted intrusion. 911 put a stop to all of this, so I gave up, but the system is returning I think. I just don't travel trans-border that much any more, so it's not worth it.
Why not insist that in an environment of such notification requirements, that EVERY aerodrome in the UK be registered to the satisfaction of the police?
VFR Flights within Canada (which do not involve controlled airspace or airports) do not require any notification of any kind, unless they exceed 25NM, and then it is a minimum of notification to a responsible person - not the police.
I know that drugs are smuggled by air around here - they keep getting caught! a few years back, a Bombardier Challenger jet a few miles away! Drug runners who were forced down onto a road by the police were apparently headed for my buddy's home runway 10 miles from here as there planned drop zone. That made me take notice!
I know (because my neighbours tell me) that the police have enquired about my flying here in the distant past, and they are welcomed anytime for genuine law enforcement purposes, but in the mean time, I'll come and go as I wish, and unless I cross into the United States, only my wife will be notified of the flight!
Good luck to all of the UK private pilots in avoiding what seems to me to be a rediculous intrusion on personal transport.
Pilot DAR
Many years ago (before 911) Canada customs had a program of telephone notification of private aircraft arrivals into Canada (non-commercial departures required no customs/immigration notification, though still a flight plan). The arrival under this plan had to be to a designated aerodrome. I asked if I could have my private home runway so designated, and the answer was yes. The major condition was that I had to give written permission to the local police to come and look around whenever they wanted. With nothing to hide, I did not seek to avoid this granted intrusion. 911 put a stop to all of this, so I gave up, but the system is returning I think. I just don't travel trans-border that much any more, so it's not worth it.
Why not insist that in an environment of such notification requirements, that EVERY aerodrome in the UK be registered to the satisfaction of the police?
VFR Flights within Canada (which do not involve controlled airspace or airports) do not require any notification of any kind, unless they exceed 25NM, and then it is a minimum of notification to a responsible person - not the police.
I know that drugs are smuggled by air around here - they keep getting caught! a few years back, a Bombardier Challenger jet a few miles away! Drug runners who were forced down onto a road by the police were apparently headed for my buddy's home runway 10 miles from here as there planned drop zone. That made me take notice!
I know (because my neighbours tell me) that the police have enquired about my flying here in the distant past, and they are welcomed anytime for genuine law enforcement purposes, but in the mean time, I'll come and go as I wish, and unless I cross into the United States, only my wife will be notified of the flight!
Good luck to all of the UK private pilots in avoiding what seems to me to be a rediculous intrusion on personal transport.
Pilot DAR
The police have powert to request information about a flight. The information they can demand is in the Regulation which I quoted in the linked thread. It only applies to flights to or from the CTA and not to flights within Great Britain.
It now reads:
17. — (1) This paragraph applies to a ship or aircraft which—
(a) arrives or is expected to arrive in any place in the United Kingdom (whether from another place in the United Kingdom or from outside the United Kingdom), or
(b) leaves or is expected to leave the United Kingdom.
...
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I think bookworm is right; the Plod has the right to turn over any plane landing in the UK and request details of anybody on it.
However, that seems a pretty obvious statement of the hugely self evident!!!
If Plod didn't have this right, he may as well give up.
I suppose it is a rather strange thing to do to a wholly international flight landing in the UK for just a refuel for example, but again it's pretty obvious that these powers must exist.
However, that seems a pretty obvious statement of the hugely self evident!!!
If Plod didn't have this right, he may as well give up.
I suppose it is a rather strange thing to do to a wholly international flight landing in the UK for just a refuel for example, but again it's pretty obvious that these powers must exist.
You are quite correct - the information which can be demanded is set out in the regulations.
If Plod didn't have this right, he may as well give up.
That's not to say that I think the power to search an aircraft and card its passengers is unreasonable, but it does reflect a considerable extension of the powers conferred even by the TA 2000.
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Blimey what a lot of huff and puff!
As someone who flies to and from the Channel islands with monotonous and boring regulatory and I can tell you quite categorically that as a private pilot with or without passengers your obligation is to give 12 hours notice of your flight. The GAR is a convenient way to do this.
It's up to plod to to turn up if he wants to and if he doesn't you just come and go as you please. If he does turn up he would have to show a VERY good reason to interfere with your plans as you are a citizen going about his lawful occasions and therefore not to be trifled with
As someone who flies to and from the Channel islands with monotonous and boring regulatory and I can tell you quite categorically that as a private pilot with or without passengers your obligation is to give 12 hours notice of your flight. The GAR is a convenient way to do this.
It's up to plod to to turn up if he wants to and if he doesn't you just come and go as you please. If he does turn up he would have to show a VERY good reason to interfere with your plans as you are a citizen going about his lawful occasions and therefore not to be trifled with
Last edited by Johnm; 8th Aug 2008 at 18:50.