Passed my PPL- how long for passengers?
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Passed my PPL- how long for passengers?
Hi all.
I passed my PPL at the weekend. It was a partial the previous weekend, requiring me to re-do my practice forced landing.
I've just dropped everything in the post to the CAA, so I am counting down the weeks til the shiny new licence arrives.
My question is regarding taking passengers up. I feel pretty comfortable that if my licence came tomorrow, I would take passengers. However, speaking to others at the club, they were a little surprised and said "sure you wouldnt rather log a few hours then take pax?"
I didn't get this. Surely passing the PPL means you have reached a set standard, so where does the "few hours" come in before taking pax? The impression I got was that I was almost being foolhardy by taking pax straight away. I generally bow to experience as I only have 55hrs, but what would everyone suggest? (I have typically managed an hour a week over the last few months, and it was my intention to fly a few circuits when the licence comes then take pax, so perhaps 30mins max).
I just don't want to go to the club with family etc and here the muttered "going up with only 30 mins logged after passing test....tut tut" in the background, you know? Am I missing something?
Thanks all
I passed my PPL at the weekend. It was a partial the previous weekend, requiring me to re-do my practice forced landing.
I've just dropped everything in the post to the CAA, so I am counting down the weeks til the shiny new licence arrives.
My question is regarding taking passengers up. I feel pretty comfortable that if my licence came tomorrow, I would take passengers. However, speaking to others at the club, they were a little surprised and said "sure you wouldnt rather log a few hours then take pax?"
I didn't get this. Surely passing the PPL means you have reached a set standard, so where does the "few hours" come in before taking pax? The impression I got was that I was almost being foolhardy by taking pax straight away. I generally bow to experience as I only have 55hrs, but what would everyone suggest? (I have typically managed an hour a week over the last few months, and it was my intention to fly a few circuits when the licence comes then take pax, so perhaps 30mins max).
I just don't want to go to the club with family etc and here the muttered "going up with only 30 mins logged after passing test....tut tut" in the background, you know? Am I missing something?
Thanks all
The Original Whirly
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Passengers are hard work, probably harder than you realise right now. They don't understand how much you have to concentrate, and they chat to you at the wrong times - like when you're trying to listen to an important clearance on the radio. They get excited and scared and airsick. They expect you to be able to go up in any weather conditions, and they don't like plans being changed at the last moment. Especially if they're family or friends, they don't mean to give you an extra workload, but the fact remains that they do, almost always.
That's why people are telling you to just get a little flying on your own first, and I would agree. It's not that anyone will think badly of you, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks anyway. It's simply for you to consolidate what you know and get a little experience, not of manipulating the controls, but of captaincy and decision-making...because you haven't done that yet!
But as with everything else in flying from now on, it's your choice. Good luck.
That's why people are telling you to just get a little flying on your own first, and I would agree. It's not that anyone will think badly of you, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks anyway. It's simply for you to consolidate what you know and get a little experience, not of manipulating the controls, but of captaincy and decision-making...because you haven't done that yet!
But as with everything else in flying from now on, it's your choice. Good luck.
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robbo.....i have never given a ticket so someone i felt was not capable of exercising the privilages of their licence in full but i usually advise them to take things slowly ( not that they should fly alone since taking a pax is usually one of the first things a new PPL wants to do ), but just to be aware that they are now the pilot in command as much as the commercial pilot, and as such responsible for passenger comfort and safety.
its why i often feel there is more responsibility in asscessing the PPL than the CPL who is going on to a lot more training. the PPL is taking his/her loved one/s flying next day with all the responsibility which that imposes.
as whirly says...its a matter of choice. do what you feel comfortable with...and pick a good day both for your self and your pax....enjoy the flight captain..
gear up...
its why i often feel there is more responsibility in asscessing the PPL than the CPL who is going on to a lot more training. the PPL is taking his/her loved one/s flying next day with all the responsibility which that imposes.
as whirly says...its a matter of choice. do what you feel comfortable with...and pick a good day both for your self and your pax....enjoy the flight captain..
gear up...
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Agree. Just do a few flight on your own to get used to, well, decision making completely on your own without an instructor backing you up or signing you out, before taking pax.
Als, one of the AICs of the CAA is about taking passengers. Might be a good time to read that once more, at this time.
Als, one of the AICs of the CAA is about taking passengers. Might be a good time to read that once more, at this time.
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Pax
Robbo0885. If you have attained a level of competence which satisfied your examiner that you are proficient enough to award a pass for the issue of your PPL you are licenced to carry pax. If your confidence level in your ability is such that you are unsure whether or not you should carry pax, then my advice is don't until you are confident enough.
I wish you all the best in your flying endeavours. Just always remember that no life is more important than your own. Do all in your power to protect it and the lives of others will be equally protected.
Happy flying.
I wish you all the best in your flying endeavours. Just always remember that no life is more important than your own. Do all in your power to protect it and the lives of others will be equally protected.
Happy flying.
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Robbo - you have been given some great advise on here and there isn't much more I can add.
As people have said, it's not a reflection on your ability, but it's exactly as Whirlybird and others have said. All of a sudden, you have replaced your helpful instructor 'passenger' with a passenger who is a distraction and in all likelihood, is probably a little nervous themselves about going up in a light aircraft.
I got my ppl only a few months ago and flew a few solo hours first to consolidate my new found freedom. My first 'real' passenger as in not a pilot friend was my father. I must admit, although being confident in my ability, I was certainly pretty nervous at first to be responsible for the safety of my nearest and dearest. And I am sure that I'm not alone in that respect.
I think you need to treat taking a passenger just like an additional cockpit workload and be aware that there aren't in a familiar environment and explain things. To give you an example, when I did a carb heat check and the rpm dropped a little, it was very noticeable that my father was concerned, even though he didn't say anything!
So being a new ppl myself, I would say just be aware of this and consider that perhaps the additional cockpit workload is something that you initially could do with out?
And congratulations on getting your ppl - well done!!
As people have said, it's not a reflection on your ability, but it's exactly as Whirlybird and others have said. All of a sudden, you have replaced your helpful instructor 'passenger' with a passenger who is a distraction and in all likelihood, is probably a little nervous themselves about going up in a light aircraft.
I got my ppl only a few months ago and flew a few solo hours first to consolidate my new found freedom. My first 'real' passenger as in not a pilot friend was my father. I must admit, although being confident in my ability, I was certainly pretty nervous at first to be responsible for the safety of my nearest and dearest. And I am sure that I'm not alone in that respect.
I think you need to treat taking a passenger just like an additional cockpit workload and be aware that there aren't in a familiar environment and explain things. To give you an example, when I did a carb heat check and the rpm dropped a little, it was very noticeable that my father was concerned, even though he didn't say anything!
So being a new ppl myself, I would say just be aware of this and consider that perhaps the additional cockpit workload is something that you initially could do with out?
And congratulations on getting your ppl - well done!!
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Robbo,
Congrats on the pass - I got mine on Sunday too! Can't wait for it to come through
(and I arsed up my first PFL too..)
I'm thinking the same as you - a lot of the time while studying and training I've been looking forward to taking pax up with me, to show them what I do and let them see why I love flying and talk about it so much! When my license arrives I wish to do exactly that.
I feel confident enough that on a good weather day a flight around the airfield vicinity with a comfortable passenger would be within my capabilities - although I agree that if weather is poor, or flying in busy airspace or with a less-comfortable passenger I'd want to gather a few more hours first.
Best of luck,
--rob
(PS: BackPacker - searched for the AIC you mentioned on the AIS website and couldn't find it, have you got a link to it?)
Congrats on the pass - I got mine on Sunday too! Can't wait for it to come through
(and I arsed up my first PFL too..)I'm thinking the same as you - a lot of the time while studying and training I've been looking forward to taking pax up with me, to show them what I do and let them see why I love flying and talk about it so much! When my license arrives I wish to do exactly that.
I feel confident enough that on a good weather day a flight around the airfield vicinity with a comfortable passenger would be within my capabilities - although I agree that if weather is poor, or flying in busy airspace or with a less-comfortable passenger I'd want to gather a few more hours first.
Best of luck,
--rob
(PS: BackPacker - searched for the AIC you mentioned on the AIS website and couldn't find it, have you got a link to it?)
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FWIW, here's my little pax brief "spiel":
Prop - Doesn't look like much but can transfer xxx HP to the air. It'll win every time from your limbs. Don't go near it. If you see an aircraft without a prop, it's probably not broken but spinning.
Doors, windows - Explain how to open/close them, including any special emergency switches.
Seatbelts - Some might be unfamiliar design. Leave them on at all times. There's no loo on board, so where would you go anyway?
Headset/Intercom - I help them put it on and adjust it. Mic needs to be "kissing distance" from your lips. We can talk to each other but ATC is on it as well. Sterile cockpit during take-off and landing, and other busy times. Also explain what a callsign (and the abbreviated version) is, because they'll be hearing that a lot. Also volume knob on their headset.
Controls - I show the range of travel of the yoke/stick so they know what it can do. Also, don't touch anything or interfere with anything unless I told you so. If you accidently did something (throw a switch, say), tell me about it rather than letting me find out.
VFR rules - we fly on visual separation without much help from ATC. If you spot another aircraft, tell me about it. And you may interrupt me at all times for that.
Sickbags - depending on the nervousness of the pax I either tell them about it or make sure I know where to find them in a hurry.
Furthermore during the taxi, runup and flight I tell them anything that might be unusual. In the DA40 for instance I explain that taxi is a bit wobbly due to the castoring nosewheel and differential braking (effectively hiding my inability to taxi straight despite this
). Before the runup checks I tell them I'm going to test the engine and its controls to check that everything works as designed. Approaching the circuit I sort of explain them the route we're going to travel to get to the runway.
Most of this is done while walking to, and getting settled in the aircraft. Apart from the VFR rules and "tell me if you don't feel well" there is no specific safety brief.
Prop - Doesn't look like much but can transfer xxx HP to the air. It'll win every time from your limbs. Don't go near it. If you see an aircraft without a prop, it's probably not broken but spinning.
Doors, windows - Explain how to open/close them, including any special emergency switches.
Seatbelts - Some might be unfamiliar design. Leave them on at all times. There's no loo on board, so where would you go anyway?
Headset/Intercom - I help them put it on and adjust it. Mic needs to be "kissing distance" from your lips. We can talk to each other but ATC is on it as well. Sterile cockpit during take-off and landing, and other busy times. Also explain what a callsign (and the abbreviated version) is, because they'll be hearing that a lot. Also volume knob on their headset.
Controls - I show the range of travel of the yoke/stick so they know what it can do. Also, don't touch anything or interfere with anything unless I told you so. If you accidently did something (throw a switch, say), tell me about it rather than letting me find out.
VFR rules - we fly on visual separation without much help from ATC. If you spot another aircraft, tell me about it. And you may interrupt me at all times for that.
Sickbags - depending on the nervousness of the pax I either tell them about it or make sure I know where to find them in a hurry.
Furthermore during the taxi, runup and flight I tell them anything that might be unusual. In the DA40 for instance I explain that taxi is a bit wobbly due to the castoring nosewheel and differential braking (effectively hiding my inability to taxi straight despite this
). Before the runup checks I tell them I'm going to test the engine and its controls to check that everything works as designed. Approaching the circuit I sort of explain them the route we're going to travel to get to the runway.Most of this is done while walking to, and getting settled in the aircraft. Apart from the VFR rules and "tell me if you don't feel well" there is no specific safety brief.
Hovering AND talking
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Given it can take the CAA 4-6 weeks to get your licence to you and you can't take passengers until you have the licence, you've got some time to get in any practice you want/require to keep current according your club's rules.
My first passenger was my mother (no stranger to aviation) so her brief from me was "get in, belt up, shut up, let's go!"
Cheers
Whirls
My first passenger was my mother (no stranger to aviation) so her brief from me was "get in, belt up, shut up, let's go!"
Cheers
Whirls
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You have a licence. You wouldn't (or shouldn't) have a licence if you weren't as safe as can reasonably be expected for a new PPL. Take passengers and ignore those who would dent your confidence with misplaced excess caution.
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(PS: BackPacker - searched for the AIC you mentioned on the AIS website and couldn't find it, have you got a link to it?)
The official LASORS 2008 is the first hit in Google, or here: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1591
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Some flights before taking PAX
I agree with other posts; PAX can be hard work and if they are very nervous they can make you nervous as well.
Suggest frequent reassurance that all is OK if there is any turbulence.
Regarding when, my suggestions are:
- fly your QXC again, but on your own - nice to enjoy and relatively relaxing
- work out where you will be taking PAX on your first trips with them, then fly exactly the same on your own a few times first. It will all then be familiar, you know what to point out when/where for their interest and makes the extra mental workload of carrying PAX relatively easy.
One thing on the briefing: sterile cockpit (their silence) on take-off until I say it is OK to talk: usually 1,000ft AAL (unless of course they see something I clearly haven't); plus within 2nm of the join until clear of the runway after landing.
While in the air I tell them that if I quickly raise my right hand they must immediately stop talking, as it will be ATC on the radio or I need to talk to ATC (or think!).
Suggest frequent reassurance that all is OK if there is any turbulence.
Regarding when, my suggestions are:
- fly your QXC again, but on your own - nice to enjoy and relatively relaxing
- work out where you will be taking PAX on your first trips with them, then fly exactly the same on your own a few times first. It will all then be familiar, you know what to point out when/where for their interest and makes the extra mental workload of carrying PAX relatively easy.
One thing on the briefing: sterile cockpit (their silence) on take-off until I say it is OK to talk: usually 1,000ft AAL (unless of course they see something I clearly haven't); plus within 2nm of the join until clear of the runway after landing.
While in the air I tell them that if I quickly raise my right hand they must immediately stop talking, as it will be ATC on the radio or I need to talk to ATC (or think!).
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While in the air I tell them that if I quickly raise my right hand they must immediately stop talking, as it will be ATC on the radio or I need to talk to ATC (or think!).
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Congratulations on getting your PPL !
As has been said - LOADS of great advice on here.
My top tips are (some mentioned already)
- If I raise my right hand - it means..."shut up for a moment, I need to listen or talk"
- Below 1000ft and on approach into a circuit - silence please, unless you see another aircraft - then tell me ...briefly !
- In the event of a forced landing, exit the aircraft when I tell you to and head towards the tail away from the prop !!
- When flying pax for the first time - take them on a route that you've flown yourself many (10+) times before - it reduces the workload for you as it's a bit more familiar
- If you touch any controls / knock any levers - tell me ! It's not a problem but I do need to know about it !
- Tell them about and demonstrate certain sounds that might sound 'weird'..like the stall warner - so they know what to expect
Enjoy !
Random
As has been said - LOADS of great advice on here.
My top tips are (some mentioned already)
- If I raise my right hand - it means..."shut up for a moment, I need to listen or talk"
- Below 1000ft and on approach into a circuit - silence please, unless you see another aircraft - then tell me ...briefly !
- In the event of a forced landing, exit the aircraft when I tell you to and head towards the tail away from the prop !!
- When flying pax for the first time - take them on a route that you've flown yourself many (10+) times before - it reduces the workload for you as it's a bit more familiar
- If you touch any controls / knock any levers - tell me ! It's not a problem but I do need to know about it !
- Tell them about and demonstrate certain sounds that might sound 'weird'..like the stall warner - so they know what to expect
Enjoy !
Random
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Lots of good tips in this thread but at the end of the day only you can decide when to take pax.
My first post test flight was with my wife
and to be honest that was more intense than any flying session to date. With a little hind sight I would have waited and got a few hours below my belt.
Rising your right hand for quiet is the best tip Ive read yet in this thread, I still have to use it regularly and sometimes its good just to get some peace and quiet in the a/c.
congrats and welcome to the club
My first post test flight was with my wife
and to be honest that was more intense than any flying session to date. With a little hind sight I would have waited and got a few hours below my belt.Rising your right hand for quiet is the best tip Ive read yet in this thread, I still have to use it regularly and sometimes its good just to get some peace and quiet in the a/c
.congrats and welcome to the club
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When I passed my PPL I did admittedly take 1 passenger up with me very soon after, something I did regret a bit. I decided I would go local with a route I knew quite well and it did surprise me how much effort I had to put in. If I had gone somewhere I hadn't been before im sure the workload would have been well over my head and probably given in and told her to be quiet 
You never really realise how much is involved until you give it a go for the first time. My advice would be just do it when you are comfortable with the idea of disruption, make sure they have been told in the pax brief that you will need to concentrate a lot and may not be able to talk to them and perhaps go somewhere you have been and feel comfortable with.
Good luck, im sure they will enjoy it.
You never really realise how much is involved until you give it a go for the first time. My advice would be just do it when you are comfortable with the idea of disruption, make sure they have been told in the pax brief that you will need to concentrate a lot and may not be able to talk to them and perhaps go somewhere you have been and feel comfortable with.Good luck, im sure they will enjoy it.
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I got my license back very quickly when I passed, so was up with the Mrs within the week. She was a bit nervous for the first couple of flights so just stayed quiet and took in the view letting me get on with the job of flying the aircraft. Probably an excellent choice of first passenger, I'm sure if I'd taken the lads up there would have been some bravado and loudness; probably not such a great idea with a newly minted PPL still finding his feet.
Pompey till I die
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I took pax fairly quickly
I took pax fairly quickly after getting my license. All was well and a real non event.
However several months later, I took a passenger who was INCREDIBLY nervous. Informed me, as we were charging down the runway, that she wanted to get out. Put real extra load into the flight since I was watching her and trying to fly a circuit and see if she really needed to get back down or whether it would pass.
Had that been my first pax then things may have turned out differently.
As with everything though, the only way to get better is to go for it. Unfortunately though, you'll only truly know if you went to far when it's far to late...
Personally, if pax had flown in a light aircraft before, or don't get seasick or anything, then I'd probably take them again in good wx having just got my license.
However several months later, I took a passenger who was INCREDIBLY nervous. Informed me, as we were charging down the runway, that she wanted to get out. Put real extra load into the flight since I was watching her and trying to fly a circuit and see if she really needed to get back down or whether it would pass.
Had that been my first pax then things may have turned out differently.
As with everything though, the only way to get better is to go for it. Unfortunately though, you'll only truly know if you went to far when it's far to late...
Personally, if pax had flown in a light aircraft before, or don't get seasick or anything, then I'd probably take them again in good wx having just got my license.
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Before passing you the examiner asked him/herself:
If the answer wasn't "yes" you wouldn't have passed.
If this punter's next flight was with my child as passenger, would I be happy?
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In Australia we have something called the GFPT or General Flying Progres Test... it's sort of an interim 'restricted' licence that allows you to fly with passengers in the local training area, with your instructor's approval. Typically, new pilots would be at this stage at around the 30-35hr mark.
I think it's a great idea for getting used to handling pax, slowly. You're flying in a familiar environment (depending on which airfield you fly from you're essentially in sight of the field at all times, but certainly flying in a location you've been in many times before) and since you need your instructor to sign you out, difficult weather decisions etc are taken away from you. You're essentially still under an instructor's supervision.
My first passenger was my mum, I took her up approx 30 minutes after passing the GFPT flight test! I then did maybe 8-9 hours of local bimbles with mates over the next few months before I kicked off the navs. At that stage of my flying training it was great experience.
I think it's a great idea for getting used to handling pax, slowly. You're flying in a familiar environment (depending on which airfield you fly from you're essentially in sight of the field at all times, but certainly flying in a location you've been in many times before) and since you need your instructor to sign you out, difficult weather decisions etc are taken away from you. You're essentially still under an instructor's supervision.
My first passenger was my mum, I took her up approx 30 minutes after passing the GFPT flight test! I then did maybe 8-9 hours of local bimbles with mates over the next few months before I kicked off the navs. At that stage of my flying training it was great experience.