Plastic Fantastics - the future?
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Plastic Fantastics - the future?
I have derided the latest crop of GRP wonder-ships with their little Rotax/Jab engines for quite a few years now.
I confess that I have been wrong! Having very recently flown two different types on a variety of missions, I have to say that I am quite taken by them - especially when you taxi up to your stash of jerry cans and pour unleaded Mogas into them at 25p a litre less than Avgas!
They don't feel the same to fly as your average C172/182/210, they don't haul the same load as my trusty Cherokee 6 but Justiciar's Pioneer is just as fast and has an impressive panel. So impressive that I remained true to my map and stop-watch as I could not initially decipher the 4"x3" glass screen!
I will never swap my Pitts for one but I will look at them in a new light and never turn my nose up again!
Your opinions?
Stik
I confess that I have been wrong! Having very recently flown two different types on a variety of missions, I have to say that I am quite taken by them - especially when you taxi up to your stash of jerry cans and pour unleaded Mogas into them at 25p a litre less than Avgas!
They don't feel the same to fly as your average C172/182/210, they don't haul the same load as my trusty Cherokee 6 but Justiciar's Pioneer is just as fast and has an impressive panel. So impressive that I remained true to my map and stop-watch as I could not initially decipher the 4"x3" glass screen!
I will never swap my Pitts for one but I will look at them in a new light and never turn my nose up again!
Your opinions?
Stik
Justiciar's Pioneer is nice but mine is nicer 
Suspect this thread will shortly develop into a Rod vs Bosey squabble about IFR/night (though perhaps not in light of recent news in this area)
Suspect this thread will shortly develop into a Rod vs Bosey squabble about IFR/night (though perhaps not in light of recent news in this area)
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Plastic fantastic is the wrong word, but I know where your coming from.
I have recently transfered to the AT-3 fleet at Sherburn. Rotax engine burns 15litres/hour, climbs at over 1000ft p/min 2 up, and is very responsive. Yes they are limited to what they can do, and I accept that some/most people will want night and imc capability, but for a VFR bimbler and VFR going place machine they are excellent. The CZAW Sport Cruiser,Alpi Pioneer,At-3,MCR01 I believe are the future of recreational GA in this country.
I have recently transfered to the AT-3 fleet at Sherburn. Rotax engine burns 15litres/hour, climbs at over 1000ft p/min 2 up, and is very responsive. Yes they are limited to what they can do, and I accept that some/most people will want night and imc capability, but for a VFR bimbler and VFR going place machine they are excellent. The CZAW Sport Cruiser,Alpi Pioneer,At-3,MCR01 I believe are the future of recreational GA in this country.
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“Rod vs Bosey squabble about IFR/night”
Unlikely, he has seen the light.
My reason for building the MCR was that costs of “traditional non vintage” GA were likely to skyrocket and I thought the MCR was more capable and more fun for my sort of fun flying compared with my old AA5B. I have to say I would not go back! Several recent trips two up with bags have seen me doing a steady 138kn at 15lph average (for the whole flight). I fly out of a farm strip with my “own” hangar, no hassle and a £250 a year maintenance budget, life is good! I would also have lost big money if I had kept the AA5 for another 2 years.
I am planning a few days touring some of the islands around Mull. If anyone is interested in tagging along drop me a PM.
Rod1
Unlikely, he has seen the light.
My reason for building the MCR was that costs of “traditional non vintage” GA were likely to skyrocket and I thought the MCR was more capable and more fun for my sort of fun flying compared with my old AA5B. I have to say I would not go back! Several recent trips two up with bags have seen me doing a steady 138kn at 15lph average (for the whole flight). I fly out of a farm strip with my “own” hangar, no hassle and a £250 a year maintenance budget, life is good! I would also have lost big money if I had kept the AA5 for another 2 years.
I am planning a few days touring some of the islands around Mull. If anyone is interested in tagging along drop me a PM.
Rod1
Not as standard and yes would be the answers to your Q's as far as I can recall Dom, but I'm sure Rod will answer for himself in due course. Certainly possible to fit an AP to a Pioneer.
Mull touring
Rod,
Might be interested subject to dates. Busy through rest of June/early July though.
Why don't you come over to Ireland for the Aran Island Hop 4-6th July? - the best aviation event in the calendar IMHO.
Might be interested subject to dates. Busy through rest of June/early July though.
Why don't you come over to Ireland for the Aran Island Hop 4-6th July? - the best aviation event in the calendar IMHO.
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“Rod does the MCR-01 have an autopilot? Is it a possible option to fit etc?”
Mine does not, but it is possible to fit one. I tried to keep my machine light, but the autopilots are getting lighter all the time. The last one looked at was 3lb for all the bits except the wiring, so less of an issue now. Not a problem retrofitting as you can get at everything.
The good thing about this sort of machine is you can upgrade your panel to the latest “synthetic vision” with autopilot integration for vastly less than on a C of A machine.
“Aran Island Hop 4-6th July?”
Any details on the web on this, I must have missed it!
Rod1
Mine does not, but it is possible to fit one. I tried to keep my machine light, but the autopilots are getting lighter all the time. The last one looked at was 3lb for all the bits except the wiring, so less of an issue now. Not a problem retrofitting as you can get at everything.
The good thing about this sort of machine is you can upgrade your panel to the latest “synthetic vision” with autopilot integration for vastly less than on a C of A machine.
“Aran Island Hop 4-6th July?”
Any details on the web on this, I must have missed it!
Rod1
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(This isn't a wind up - I am genuinely interested in the answers)
As will become clear, I know nothing about permit/microlight operations...
If a pilot is suitably qualified (IMCR/IR) is it legal to fly in VMC without sight of the ground?
Also, as I understand it you can't fly over built-up areas, right? Is this regardless of your altitude and regardless of glide clear ability?
And what about on the near continent? e.g. France.
As will become clear, I know nothing about permit/microlight operations...
If a pilot is suitably qualified (IMCR/IR) is it legal to fly in VMC without sight of the ground?
Also, as I understand it you can't fly over built-up areas, right? Is this regardless of your altitude and regardless of glide clear ability?
And what about on the near continent? e.g. France.
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”If a pilot is suitably qualified (IMCR/IR) is it legal to fly in VMC without sight of the ground?”
The permit restricts you to VFR. If your licence says you are VFR above cloud then you are VFR above cloud.
”Also, as I understand it you can't fly over built-up areas, right? Is this regardless of your altitude and regardless of glide clear ability?”
This restriction was removed a few days ago.
”And what about on the near continent? e.g. France.”
A Permit aircraft is restricted to UK airspace unless it has the permission of another state to fly there. A standing agreement exists throughout almost all of Europe. The exceptions from memory are Belgium, Spain and the Channel Islands. All of these will give you permission if you apply in writing, the rest, you just go.
Rod1
The permit restricts you to VFR. If your licence says you are VFR above cloud then you are VFR above cloud.
”Also, as I understand it you can't fly over built-up areas, right? Is this regardless of your altitude and regardless of glide clear ability?”
This restriction was removed a few days ago.
”And what about on the near continent? e.g. France.”
A Permit aircraft is restricted to UK airspace unless it has the permission of another state to fly there. A standing agreement exists throughout almost all of Europe. The exceptions from memory are Belgium, Spain and the Channel Islands. All of these will give you permission if you apply in writing, the rest, you just go.
Rod1
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“I will let you know my opinion when I see one that is 30+ years old.”
I sincerely hope that in 30 years my aircraft will be considered totally and utterly obsolete and we will all be flying something with an electric motor and solar panels, which does 180kn and has endurance equivalent to daylight hours. If something like this is not available we will be in big trouble, because petrol will probably be too expensive to use, even if we are still allowed to generate the CO2.
Avgas will hit £2 soon; 10 years ago it was around £50p, so how long before £3, a year?
Rod1
I sincerely hope that in 30 years my aircraft will be considered totally and utterly obsolete and we will all be flying something with an electric motor and solar panels, which does 180kn and has endurance equivalent to daylight hours. If something like this is not available we will be in big trouble, because petrol will probably be too expensive to use, even if we are still allowed to generate the CO2.
Avgas will hit £2 soon; 10 years ago it was around £50p, so how long before £3, a year?
Rod1
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I sincerely hope that in 30 years my aircraft will be considered totally and utterly obsolete and we will all be flying something with an electric motor and solar panels, which does 180kn and has endurance equivalent to daylight hours. If something like this is not available we will be in big trouble, because petrol will probably be too expensive to use, even if we are still allowed to generate the CO2.
Avgas will hit £2 soon; 10 years ago it was around £50p, so how long before £3, a year?
Rod1
Avgas will hit £2 soon; 10 years ago it was around £50p, so how long before £3, a year?
Rod1
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An electric power a/c has flown (batteries), solar panels are used on gliders to charge batteries. I would expect it to take a lot less than 30yrs to get that lot together. Hopefully before the gas goes out.
Many moons ago I seem to remember "Tomorrows World" showing a model a/c using the static electricity within the atmosphere as a wing levelling / "autopilot". How long before we can harness the stuff that thunder storms are made of & pour it into a motor? Fuel duration:- not applicable.
Well at least I can dream.
Many moons ago I seem to remember "Tomorrows World" showing a model a/c using the static electricity within the atmosphere as a wing levelling / "autopilot". How long before we can harness the stuff that thunder storms are made of & pour it into a motor? Fuel duration:- not applicable.
Well at least I can dream.
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What is definitely NOT the future is anything with an engine in it burning 36 litres an hour. I sincerely hope that all the American aircraft, the current ageing fleet of Cessna 152/172 etc and PA28 derivatives are all scrapped in a few years' time.
You don't expect a motor vehicle to last more than 10 years, why a plane? The present UK training/hire fleet are the aviation equivalent of a Morris Minor. You may have a pang of nostalgia when you see one on the roads, but try using one for day-to-day transport or travel for any distance - uncomfortable, cold in the Winter and hot in the Summer, cramped inside, noisy, fuel-inefficient, hard to source parts for and generally unattractive for potential users. The above equally applies to the C152 as it does to the Moggie.
To prove the point...
A couple of years ago, the first Cirrus appeared on our airfield; an enterprising person saw this as the way forward, despite the fact that they cost 5 times as much as a PA28 or C172. Since then, 14 have arrived and are probably flown more than many of the other aircraft. People DO have the money to spend when they see something attractive. How can we expect folk to turn up in a new 5-series BMW and climb into a clapped out aircraft with cracked trim, worn-out carpet and a weight-and-balance situation that means they can't take their friends flying?
TheOddOne.
You don't expect a motor vehicle to last more than 10 years, why a plane? The present UK training/hire fleet are the aviation equivalent of a Morris Minor. You may have a pang of nostalgia when you see one on the roads, but try using one for day-to-day transport or travel for any distance - uncomfortable, cold in the Winter and hot in the Summer, cramped inside, noisy, fuel-inefficient, hard to source parts for and generally unattractive for potential users. The above equally applies to the C152 as it does to the Moggie.
To prove the point...
A couple of years ago, the first Cirrus appeared on our airfield; an enterprising person saw this as the way forward, despite the fact that they cost 5 times as much as a PA28 or C172. Since then, 14 have arrived and are probably flown more than many of the other aircraft. People DO have the money to spend when they see something attractive. How can we expect folk to turn up in a new 5-series BMW and climb into a clapped out aircraft with cracked trim, worn-out carpet and a weight-and-balance situation that means they can't take their friends flying?
TheOddOne.
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Cirrus is not the future
The Cirrus is far from being the future, granted it is a better performer than the American metal aircraft but when you ger to look inside the structure it is all a bit of a lash-up.
The wing has cleatly had the "dog tooth" stuck on as an after thought and this lack of atention to detail runs throughout the aircraft.
Some of the factory aproved repair drawings come from Boeing documents that are years old and that are no longer used by and good composite repair shop.
I have no doubt that Cirrus wil get with the program and vastly improve the quality of the product but at the moment Cirrus owners are just helping with the test program, Its a pitty that Cirrus did not look a little closer at the construction of some of the more advanced German gliders, if they had they would have had a truly world beating product.
The wing has cleatly had the "dog tooth" stuck on as an after thought and this lack of atention to detail runs throughout the aircraft.
Some of the factory aproved repair drawings come from Boeing documents that are years old and that are no longer used by and good composite repair shop.
I have no doubt that Cirrus wil get with the program and vastly improve the quality of the product but at the moment Cirrus owners are just helping with the test program, Its a pitty that Cirrus did not look a little closer at the construction of some of the more advanced German gliders, if they had they would have had a truly world beating product.
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Actually my Remos uses less than 15 l/hr. At 120mph thats about 40 mile per imp gallon. Multiply that by straightlining (robinson quote 1.5) and you are up to 60 miles per imp gallon. Thats motorbike territory and you don't hear many motorcyclists moaning about the price of gas. 150 hours of flying a year will cost me 2 starbuck coffees a day. In other words you don't even register the cost. The savings in fuel alone over 30 years is about the same as the cost of the aircraft
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The wing has cleatly had the "dog tooth" stuck on as an after thought and this lack of atention to detail runs throughout the aircraft.
Some of the factory aproved repair drawings come from Boeing documents that are years old and that are no longer used by and good composite repair shop.
Would you care to be more specific?
Some of the factory aproved repair drawings come from Boeing documents that are years old and that are no longer used by and good composite repair shop.
Would you care to be more specific?
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The wooden robins have achieved 20 mpg 4 pax bags and full fuel 130 knot cruise night/IFR capable stunning field performance for the last 30+ years and a delight to fly.Still available new ,wood with a dacron covering is truly the ultimate composite.Many airframes have reached 15000+hours...show me a microlight derived airframe that has achieved a quarter of that.