P1/P1S/PICUS/PUT etc
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This is the catch, isn't it? If you, either implicitly or explicitly, agreed from the outset that the "passenger" sitting next to you could intervene if he saw fit at some time, then he's not really a passenger and you're not really "in command", are you?
(a) Change of PIC mid flight?
(b) Safety pilot?
(a) Change of PIC mid flight?
(b) Safety pilot?
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(a) Change of PIC mid flight?
(b) Safety pilot?
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Backpacker
You wish to fly my aircraft.
I agree to accompany you on your first flight.
Part of the agreement is that I takeover if either party believes it necessary for flight safety.
You book out and accept the aircraft by signing the tech log.
I have only a PPL, no FI rating.
I don't touch the controls all flight and you do all the flying, as well as making the command decisions.
Now tell me why you are not P1?
You wish to fly my aircraft.
I agree to accompany you on your first flight.
Part of the agreement is that I takeover if either party believes it necessary for flight safety.
You book out and accept the aircraft by signing the tech log.
I have only a PPL, no FI rating.
I don't touch the controls all flight and you do all the flying, as well as making the command decisions.
Now tell me why you are not P1?
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Now tell me why you are not P1?
Anyway, don't drag me into the discussion like this. I'm all for private pilots getting checked out by other private pilots and being+logging P1. I'm just pointing out some of the legal and practical problems with this.
But to be honest, the other way around has legal and practical issues too. Supposed I'm being checked out on an aircraft by another PPL (the owner, say). If I'm not P1, then the owner is, and that means that he has to pay at least an equal share of the costs. I don't think there are that many owner-pilots willing to pay for checking out other pilots...
As others have said, this has been done to death here and I've seen all the arguments from both sides to defend both positions. And the only solution I've seen is to explicitly agree beforehand who will be PIC and what the other persons role will be and what he will log, if anything.
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Backpacker
I don't agree with you, but shall we just agree to differ?
On the cost sharing side, it is quite clear to me that both pilots should pay half.
I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the owner to stump up half for a flight to see how another pilot flies, but that's just my opinion.
Safe flying to you.
I don't agree with you, but shall we just agree to differ?
On the cost sharing side, it is quite clear to me that both pilots should pay half.
I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the owner to stump up half for a flight to see how another pilot flies, but that's just my opinion.
Safe flying to you.
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I used to go along with booking check ride time as PuT. This was always at the direction of a club instructor, who needed the P1 time towards his ATPL.
These days we agree when I book a flight that, since (a) I'm legally current (b) want the P1 time and (c) paying, that I will log it. I've not yet been refused.
These days we agree when I book a flight that, since (a) I'm legally current (b) want the P1 time and (c) paying, that I will log it. I've not yet been refused.
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I have lost the will to live. This one has come up again quicker than usual......
God knows why we keep on debating this subject.
There are 2 main camps on this. The camp that says you are always PUT, usually the Instructors who want the P1 time (despite many protestations otherwise) and the renters who are current and legal and entitled to P1.
Until the CAA actually make a clear cut statement it will never be settled and I don't see one coming anytime soon!!
God knows why we keep on debating this subject.
There are 2 main camps on this. The camp that says you are always PUT, usually the Instructors who want the P1 time (despite many protestations otherwise) and the renters who are current and legal and entitled to P1.
Until the CAA actually make a clear cut statement it will never be settled and I don't see one coming anytime soon!!
Supposed I'm being checked out on an aircraft by another PPL (the owner, say). If I'm not P1, then the owner is, and that means that he has to pay at least an equal share of the costs. I don't think there are that many owner-pilots willing to pay for checking out other pilots...
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That is not what it says. Pu/t relates to a pilot undergoing training for a licence or rating. The applicable provisions are in JAR.FCL, which defines exactly what you should record in your log book. A check flight is not training. On such a flight you are either P1 or nothing.
That would depend on your defination of "for a licence or rating". If it meant only for the inital issue of a licence or rating (which is what you seem to suggest) then no one could ever log their (minimum) one hour training flight with an instructor, which is required for SEP class revalidation.
If you accept that the training for a SEP class revalidation is towards a licence or rating, then there is nothing to stop a currency check with an instructor being counted as "for a licence or rating" as this flight should qualify for the SEP class revalidation.
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EASA regulations and the recording of flight time
I have only recently passed my PPL, hence the reply to this long forgotten thread.
I have been reading up on the rules regarding the recording of flight time, according to the rather cryptically named Part-FCL / AMC / GM from the EASA regulations, section "AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time" explains that "the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor" (b) (1) (ii)
It goes on to say "PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required." (b) (5)
I read this to mean that on a checkout flight, as long as the instructor does not need to intervene for safety reasons and he countersigns the remarks column, you can log the time as PICUS (or P.1/S) and it counts towards your PIC time.
I have been reading up on the rules regarding the recording of flight time, according to the rather cryptically named Part-FCL / AMC / GM from the EASA regulations, section "AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time" explains that "the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor" (b) (1) (ii)
It goes on to say "PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required." (b) (5)
I read this to mean that on a checkout flight, as long as the instructor does not need to intervene for safety reasons and he countersigns the remarks column, you can log the time as PICUS (or P.1/S) and it counts towards your PIC time.
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Awyren - as Stevelup states there is no such thing as a 'co-pilot' in a SEP certified for single pilot operations.
I think the confusion in your mind may have arisen regarding the term 'check out' and a 'flight test' for the grant, revalidation or renewal of a rating forming a part of your licence.
If the flight test is carried out by an examiner for the grant, revalidation or renewal of a licence or rating then the examiner is P1/PIC. As the candidate on test you book P1 Under Supervision (P1CUS) for a successful test and Pilot Under Training (PU/T) for an unsuccessful test.
However, if you have a valid SEP rating and you are being 'checked out' to fly another type of SEP, then there is no need for an instructor at all - the flight could be carried out by another member of the Group, for example. This is because, technically, your rating covers the aircraft type. In that case you could indeed book P1 and the other pilot, whether instructor and/or Group member is just along for the ride so to speak (although naturally passing on useful information and checking that you are, in their opinion, safe to operate the aeroplane).
Nevertheless, if you are covering 'differences' training with an instructor on a more complex type, then the instructor will be P1 and you PU/T. The grey area in your mind may be that 'differences' training is defined (tail wheel, for example) and not 'different' type (where an instructor may be the other pilot, but not required to 'instruct').
The bottom line is: are you licensed and rated to carry out the flight unaided (that is, solo)? If you are then you can be P1, if not then by definition it must be some form of training or test and you can only book PU/T or P1CUS depending on the result of that training or test.
Separately, in the commercial world where there are co-pilots (first officers) then a sector where it is the FOs 'leg' (handling pilot) it is booked as P1CUS and where the Captain is the handling pilot (FOs non-handling) then the FO books P2. The FO can never book P1C and the Captain is usually P1. Awyren your third paragraph describes this arrangement, which is meant to apply to airline flying and not the realm of the PPL.
Bose-X makes a good point in that irrespective of the rights and wrongs instructors do tend to want to claim P1 hours for their own purposes. This may or may not be required. If you go to a flying school (ATO) you will probably be told to book 'PU/T' (there can't be two booking 'P1'), whereas with Group flying you will most likely be able to book 'P1' for the reasons described above. That has always been my experience.
I think the confusion in your mind may have arisen regarding the term 'check out' and a 'flight test' for the grant, revalidation or renewal of a rating forming a part of your licence.
If the flight test is carried out by an examiner for the grant, revalidation or renewal of a licence or rating then the examiner is P1/PIC. As the candidate on test you book P1 Under Supervision (P1CUS) for a successful test and Pilot Under Training (PU/T) for an unsuccessful test.
However, if you have a valid SEP rating and you are being 'checked out' to fly another type of SEP, then there is no need for an instructor at all - the flight could be carried out by another member of the Group, for example. This is because, technically, your rating covers the aircraft type. In that case you could indeed book P1 and the other pilot, whether instructor and/or Group member is just along for the ride so to speak (although naturally passing on useful information and checking that you are, in their opinion, safe to operate the aeroplane).
Nevertheless, if you are covering 'differences' training with an instructor on a more complex type, then the instructor will be P1 and you PU/T. The grey area in your mind may be that 'differences' training is defined (tail wheel, for example) and not 'different' type (where an instructor may be the other pilot, but not required to 'instruct').
The bottom line is: are you licensed and rated to carry out the flight unaided (that is, solo)? If you are then you can be P1, if not then by definition it must be some form of training or test and you can only book PU/T or P1CUS depending on the result of that training or test.
Separately, in the commercial world where there are co-pilots (first officers) then a sector where it is the FOs 'leg' (handling pilot) it is booked as P1CUS and where the Captain is the handling pilot (FOs non-handling) then the FO books P2. The FO can never book P1C and the Captain is usually P1. Awyren your third paragraph describes this arrangement, which is meant to apply to airline flying and not the realm of the PPL.
Bose-X makes a good point in that irrespective of the rights and wrongs instructors do tend to want to claim P1 hours for their own purposes. This may or may not be required. If you go to a flying school (ATO) you will probably be told to book 'PU/T' (there can't be two booking 'P1'), whereas with Group flying you will most likely be able to book 'P1' for the reasons described above. That has always been my experience.
Last edited by SpannerInTheWerks; 20th Sep 2016 at 11:38.
The acid test for me is: who signed for the aircraft, who would fill-out an accident report, who would pay the insurance excess, who would be hauled over the coals for an airspace infringement, etcetera ... that's the person who is P1.
HFD
HFD
It's a lot simpler across the pond - P1 or Dual.
I read this to mean that on a checkout flight, as long as the instructor does not need to intervene for safety reasons and he countersigns the remarks column, you can log the time as PICUS (or P.1/S) and it counts towards your PIC time.
Your quote appears to refer to "SPIC" which is only for IFR flight on Integrated Courses.
PICUS is not covered in EASA Regulation for SP aircraft however; CAP 804 Section 1 Part E Para 9 Item J makes a provision for UK licence holders:
Pilot undergoing any form of
flight test with a EASA or CAA
Authorised Examiner (other than
case K.
flight test with a EASA or CAA
Authorised Examiner (other than
case K.
PICUS for
successful
Test P/UT for
unsuccessful
test (including
partial pass)
successful
Test P/UT for
unsuccessful
test (including
partial pass)
Enter time in ‘P1’ column
and have it certified by
aircraft commander.
Enter time in ‘Dual’
column
and have it certified by
aircraft commander.
Enter time in ‘Dual’
column
