Oban/Glenforsa News
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Scotland
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A fraction of the subsidy paid to your local bus and train company last year....
Should we shut all of them down too, or is it only fragile rural communities you'd like to take a pot-shot at
You should be out there pushing your own local council to build you a nice little airport, not enviously sniping at the one that did
Beats flying from a soggy field in Englandshire any day 
Should we shut all of them down too, or is it only fragile rural communities you'd like to take a pot-shot at
You should be out there pushing your own local council to build you a nice little airport, not enviously sniping at the one that did
Beats flying from a soggy field in Englandshire any day
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Scottish I'd love to think that was a tongue in check comment - but given your earlier comments I doubt you have that level of intellect.
If you need an in understanding as to why much of the UK population want to cut Scotland free and watch it sink into a position which makes Iceland and Ireland look solvent - just look at the stupidity of yuor comment.
p.s. are you a council employee?
If you need an in understanding as to why much of the UK population want to cut Scotland free and watch it sink into a position which makes Iceland and Ireland look solvent - just look at the stupidity of yuor comment.
p.s. are you a council employee?
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Investment in aviation infrastructure seems to work in Norway. Then again I guess they've not spunked billions away on illegal wars and WMD. Remind me again ...basket case Iceland's current deficit in 2012 was 3.4% of GDP, the UK is 6.0% and Scotland is 2.3%.
Ho hum.
Ho hum.
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I miss read that as fraggle local communities.
Aye it works in Norway but then again you pay over 50% tax there.
Also as well even the northern norway runways are placed where you can get an instrument approach into them.
Aye it works in Norway but then again you pay over 50% tax there.
Also as well even the northern norway runways are placed where you can get an instrument approach into them.
Last edited by mad_jock; 7th Mar 2013 at 18:53.
Is it worth a proportion of a reasonable landing fee? To me, yes.
Job profiles. Firefighter. Hours. 42 per week. Starting salary. £21,157 + per year
.... with other fire services and institutions, such as the British Airports Authority, ...
.... with other fire services and institutions, such as the British Airports Authority, ...
If a full-time fireman earns 20-30,000 a year, we could use £50,000 as a guesstimate of how much it costs to employ a fireman for a year. I suspect this would be low, by the time you've taken into account equipment costs etc...
Let's say for the sake of argument that all ten of the firefighters are employed half-time, it might cost £250,000 to provide a fire service for at most 1900 movements (2004 figure) which would be £130 per movement.
You could argue about how this would be shared between Bigear's spamcan and the commercial flights, but either way I don't see how it could be incorporated as part of a 'reasonable landing fee' that I would personally be willing to pay. Even if I'm 50% too high in my back-of-the envelope calculation.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Wow, that was slow, almost a whole 20 minutes before gasax demonstrated his superior intellect with that well reasoned little diatribe 
Norway does indeed do many things better than us, unlike the UK they are about the only country that properly managed their oil and gas for the long term benefit of their people.
Closer to home the Shetland inter island flights (subsidised: cue shock, horror...) are a pretty good model as well.
Norway does indeed do many things better than us, unlike the UK they are about the only country that properly managed their oil and gas for the long term benefit of their people.
Closer to home the Shetland inter island flights (subsidised: cue shock, horror...) are a pretty good model as well.
Oh dear, oh dear Scottish_ppl, unfortunately my local council did build a nice little airport - they spent over £10m on it and have lost £1-2m on it every year since they eventually managed to get it finished - unfortunately, all the thousands of commercial aircraft movements mentioned in the "business plan" never turned up - you might know the airport I'm talking about !
Perhaps you haven't seen the cuts required by the council this year - £40m - talk of 700 council jobs to go with a serious impact on the care of the elderly and schools - so, yes I do care about the subsidy of the ticket by the Scottish government and, in addition, the money lost on the airport by the council.
You might not be aware but the airport doesn't need to be licensed - if you want to know why you might like to read bit more of this thread.
Yes, you're right there are fragile communities around and many of them are not on islands.
Perhaps you haven't seen the cuts required by the council this year - £40m - talk of 700 council jobs to go with a serious impact on the care of the elderly and schools - so, yes I do care about the subsidy of the ticket by the Scottish government and, in addition, the money lost on the airport by the council.
You might not be aware but the airport doesn't need to be licensed - if you want to know why you might like to read bit more of this thread.
Yes, you're right there are fragile communities around and many of them are not on islands.
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Sounds like we have differing opinions on whether airport infrastructure is a valuable community asset worthy of its share of a council budget, like the many other items that compete for the spend available.
It is however a well argued point and does not stoop to the usual level of vitriol towards the airport staff that continually appears on this thread from many posters that I personally find so distasteful on what is supposed to be a pilots forum.
It's a great facility, the more it gets used, the less likely we are to lose it. So I'm with the supporters, not the cynics: full marks to ABC for giving it a go, and I hope it keeps going.
It is however a well argued point and does not stoop to the usual level of vitriol towards the airport staff that continually appears on this thread from many posters that I personally find so distasteful on what is supposed to be a pilots forum.
It's a great facility, the more it gets used, the less likely we are to lose it. So I'm with the supporters, not the cynics: full marks to ABC for giving it a go, and I hope it keeps going.
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The Shetland flights arn't payed for out of tax payers money though.
They are payed for out of the rent for Sullom Voe. So the money doesn't come from central funds.
They also employ the local kids at over 10 quid an hour to cut grass during the summer so that they will come back from university and hopefully settle there after graduating. The northern Isles economys is nowhere near that of a declining fishing/crofting community on the west coast.
You will loose it in the current form. There is no way that amount of expenditure can be justified when they are shutting down schools, old folks homes and reducing health care in the area.
They are payed for out of the rent for Sullom Voe. So the money doesn't come from central funds.
They also employ the local kids at over 10 quid an hour to cut grass during the summer so that they will come back from university and hopefully settle there after graduating. The northern Isles economys is nowhere near that of a declining fishing/crofting community on the west coast.
You will loose it in the current form. There is no way that amount of expenditure can be justified when they are shutting down schools, old folks homes and reducing health care in the area.
Last edited by mad_jock; 7th Mar 2013 at 19:51.
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p.s. are you a council employee?
1. Not one clue about reality.
2. The Scottish fried envy disease.
3. Take from the rich, give to the poor, fragile local communities. Eh, most are estates owned by very rich, outsiders.
4. Lets set out with a business plan, and we will budget 1 million pounds. Get it ALL wrong and spend 12 million pounds. Lets then cover it all up and blame someone else shall we.
As a final point Scottish, the islanders were given the air service, heavily subsidised by taxpayers money, and at 65 quid, they deemed it too expensive, and continued to get the ferry.
So we now have for our fragile community, a subsidised ferry service, a subsidised air service, a subsidised bus service, and for all I know, a heavily subsidised train service.
Oh, and a 12 million pounds little airport
Last edited by maxred; 7th Mar 2013 at 19:59.
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Ah well, the reasoned arguments didn't last long. 
So maxred, the rural affairs expert from the lovely cultured west coast metropolis of Glasgow, what was the taxpayers subsidy to SPT last year?
I suppose it was cheaper than Edinburgh's trams....
So maxred, the rural affairs expert from the lovely cultured west coast metropolis of Glasgow, what was the taxpayers subsidy to SPT last year?
I suppose it was cheaper than Edinburgh's trams....
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FWIW, I abhor the total and utter waste of subsidised buses, clogging up the streets of both our fair city, Glasgow, and the midden capital of Edinburgh.
I would also agree that the Island communities, the true Island communities, need a level playing field in terms of accessibility.
However, this is a Private Flying forum, and we would be best to stick to the relevance of the debate, Oban Follies.
Whatever the view on Oban, this has been a public finance fiasco, delivering not a great deal, to anyone. Other than an unrealistic vision, of Island community air service. Non?
I would also agree that the Island communities, the true Island communities, need a level playing field in terms of accessibility.
However, this is a Private Flying forum, and we would be best to stick to the relevance of the debate, Oban Follies.
Whatever the view on Oban, this has been a public finance fiasco, delivering not a great deal, to anyone. Other than an unrealistic vision, of Island community air service. Non?
Last edited by maxred; 7th Mar 2013 at 21:29.
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The shame is that the funding came on the premise that it gave 10 people a vision of a job for life with the council. The reality is that there is no job without continuing subsidy and I for one would rather see that funding given to something worthwhile like schools or care for the elderly. The air service can continue without expensive fire cover at an airfield which is unlicensed.
Last edited by topoverhaul; 7th Mar 2013 at 22:24.
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12 Mil put into the airport and a couple of mil a year to run it !
For that kinda money I have a more efficient way of making sure the islanders have prompt transport service. 12 mil would buy about 250 decent used 172’s and the annual few mil field operating costs could buy them the avgas, so dish out a Cessna and a ppl to each family on the islands and tell them to have at it
The only issue may be the better educated and more style conscious amongst them may demand a Maule instead of Cessna
For that kinda money I have a more efficient way of making sure the islanders have prompt transport service. 12 mil would buy about 250 decent used 172’s and the annual few mil field operating costs could buy them the avgas, so dish out a Cessna and a ppl to each family on the islands and tell them to have at it
The only issue may be the better educated and more style conscious amongst them may demand a Maule instead of Cessna
The only issue may be the better educated and more style conscious amongst them may demand a Maule instead of Cessna
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
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Whilst we have a soap box on this, I may as well get one other issue aired.
My understanding is that D.W. and his seaplane venture tried his damndest to provide a perfect service from Glasgow City Centre to Oban.
All he got was a bucketfull of HASTLE from ABC, MOR'd constantly for all manner of minor 'infringements'. Infringements of free and fresh air, I might add.
With a bit of common sense applied, a seaplane service, would have been the perfect solution. for ALL of the islands, not just Coll and Colonsay, who both got their 500 mts of tarmac. Any subsidy for a service like this would have been wholly appreciated as providing something tangible, to all of the community.
And I am aware of all the issues surrounding single engine IFR, but the Islander is VFR only, so no issue with a seaplane service.
My understanding is that D.W. and his seaplane venture tried his damndest to provide a perfect service from Glasgow City Centre to Oban.
All he got was a bucketfull of HASTLE from ABC, MOR'd constantly for all manner of minor 'infringements'. Infringements of free and fresh air, I might add.
With a bit of common sense applied, a seaplane service, would have been the perfect solution. for ALL of the islands, not just Coll and Colonsay, who both got their 500 mts of tarmac. Any subsidy for a service like this would have been wholly appreciated as providing something tangible, to all of the community.
And I am aware of all the issues surrounding single engine IFR, but the Islander is VFR only, so no issue with a seaplane service.
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for ALL of the islands
Not sure a seaplane would fit the requirements, Coll Colonsay, Tiree obviously have nice strips, Jura is for the most part is owned by a gazzilionair and he is putting his own version of Heathrow in, Islay has its own field, as do the Hebridies, Skye has the bridge to the mainland, which pretty much leaves Rum Egg and muck and how many people,if any, live on them.
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Agree, but there is more to these communities than the residents.
With some decent and reliable travel arrangements, tourism can flourish.
Not the hotel/pub lunch type tourism, but day travellers, eco tours, nature treks etc.
Maybe the inhabitants dont want that, but then dont squeal for subsidised air travel, nor expensive airports.
Look we all know it is difficult, but with a decent joined up thinking approach to travel, then maybe some communities will flourish again.
I note the bridge etc, but some folk just do not want to spend four days in a car trying to get there
With some decent and reliable travel arrangements, tourism can flourish.
Not the hotel/pub lunch type tourism, but day travellers, eco tours, nature treks etc.
Maybe the inhabitants dont want that, but then dont squeal for subsidised air travel, nor expensive airports.
Look we all know it is difficult, but with a decent joined up thinking approach to travel, then maybe some communities will flourish again.
I note the bridge etc, but some folk just do not want to spend four days in a car trying to get there
