TMG/SLMG Rating on PPL(A)
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TMG/SLMG Rating on PPL(A)
Can somebody confirm a few details of putting a SLMG/TMG rating on my JAR PPL(A) (normal SEP type).
I've been told that to fly a Falke Motor Glider (or a Grob which is arriving soon so I'm told) I need differences training (fair enough) and then a GFT in it to get a TMG rating on my licence.
My understanding is that once this is done, any hours I do in either SEP or TMG are logged and count towards normal yearly minima. (I'm ignoring currency issues here). They will both be 'renewed' concurrently.
Is this correct/partially right/rubbish?
Additionally, as the Falke and Grob are taildraggers (& the Grob has a VP prop), do these differences count towards relevent differences sign-offs wrt my SEP rating. I haven't any SEP T/D time but would like some!
Incidently, I do have some gliding experience already and plan to do a bit more before trying a motorglider.
I've been told that to fly a Falke Motor Glider (or a Grob which is arriving soon so I'm told) I need differences training (fair enough) and then a GFT in it to get a TMG rating on my licence.
My understanding is that once this is done, any hours I do in either SEP or TMG are logged and count towards normal yearly minima. (I'm ignoring currency issues here). They will both be 'renewed' concurrently.
Is this correct/partially right/rubbish?
Additionally, as the Falke and Grob are taildraggers (& the Grob has a VP prop), do these differences count towards relevent differences sign-offs wrt my SEP rating. I haven't any SEP T/D time but would like some!
Incidently, I do have some gliding experience already and plan to do a bit more before trying a motorglider.
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Easy way first ...
If your PPL has the SLMG attached as my UK PPL A had (I believe the early JAR PPL's still did) then all you need to do is a one hour flight with an SLMG instructor to validate it. If you have more than 75 hours P1 on either SEP or SLMG you can then send off to the CAA, pay a fee and have the TMG rating attached. Hours in a SLMG/TMG can from then on be used to keep your TMG and SEP ratings current. You cannot use SLMG/TMG hours to keep your SEP rating current if you do not have the TMG rating.
If your PPL does not have an attached SLMG then there are two routes as far as I can see. If you are already current on SLMG's (ATC instructor, NPPL SLMG) you can get an SLMG attached to your JAR PPL and add a TMG rating afterwards if you have the required 75 hours, or you can take a TMG skill test with a TMG examiner. The difficulty with that is there are only a few TMG examiners around, whereas there are loads of BGA/NPPL SLMG instructors who can sign you off for a SLMG rating. I'm not sure but you may be able to just do differences traing with an SLMG instructor to get an SLMG attached to your licence, but of course the hours wouldn't count until this is uprated to a TMG (which if you have 75 hours on either, you can do).
SS
If your PPL has the SLMG attached as my UK PPL A had (I believe the early JAR PPL's still did) then all you need to do is a one hour flight with an SLMG instructor to validate it. If you have more than 75 hours P1 on either SEP or SLMG you can then send off to the CAA, pay a fee and have the TMG rating attached. Hours in a SLMG/TMG can from then on be used to keep your TMG and SEP ratings current. You cannot use SLMG/TMG hours to keep your SEP rating current if you do not have the TMG rating.
If your PPL does not have an attached SLMG then there are two routes as far as I can see. If you are already current on SLMG's (ATC instructor, NPPL SLMG) you can get an SLMG attached to your JAR PPL and add a TMG rating afterwards if you have the required 75 hours, or you can take a TMG skill test with a TMG examiner. The difficulty with that is there are only a few TMG examiners around, whereas there are loads of BGA/NPPL SLMG instructors who can sign you off for a SLMG rating. I'm not sure but you may be able to just do differences traing with an SLMG instructor to get an SLMG attached to your licence, but of course the hours wouldn't count until this is uprated to a TMG (which if you have 75 hours on either, you can do).
SS
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Thanks for that SS, that clears up a few points. I should have been more specific, my PPL is a fairly recent (under 2 years old) licence and doesn't have any SLMG priviliges at all that I'm aware of.
I can't comment on the shortage of TMG examiners but I enquired at Lasham and they said they had TMG examiners on staff and it appeared no problem to them. I'm not disbelieving them but just wanted confirmation.
Pardon my extreme ignorance, but what's the difference between a Self Launching MG & a Touring MG? I thought the SLMG was obvious (can launch and sustain itself) and the TMG requires launching but can sustain itself once airbourne. Yet the 'ratings' seem to contradict? Explain?
Thanks.
dB
I can't comment on the shortage of TMG examiners but I enquired at Lasham and they said they had TMG examiners on staff and it appeared no problem to them. I'm not disbelieving them but just wanted confirmation.
Pardon my extreme ignorance, but what's the difference between a Self Launching MG & a Touring MG? I thought the SLMG was obvious (can launch and sustain itself) and the TMG requires launching but can sustain itself once airbourne. Yet the 'ratings' seem to contradict? Explain?
Thanks.
dB
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They are basically the same thing and many aircraft that were SLMG's are now classified as TMG's. You're thinking of a "self sustaining" motorglider that needs to be launched. SSMG's can be flown by any glider pilot and do not need a licence (At least that was the case pre JAR?). SLMG's and TMG's can take off under their own power and whilst there may be slight differences in some obscure paper somewhere they can be assumed to be the same thing. You can fly SLMG's and TMG's on a SLMG or TMG rating, but you can only count hours flown against your SEP currency if you have a TMG rating.
SS
SS
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Yes its odd, TMG is a JAA rating, SLMG is a national rating - a relic of the old CAA administered regime, pre JAA. There isn’t much difference in terms of how the two aircraft classes are defined, as far as I'm aware.
you can still keep your SLMG rating when you convert your national UK licence to a JAA PPL, or upgrade to a CPL/ATPL.
dont know what will happen when EASA takes control...
you can still keep your SLMG rating when you convert your national UK licence to a JAA PPL, or upgrade to a CPL/ATPL.
dont know what will happen when EASA takes control...
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Ah, it's SSMG's I'm obviously thinking of, thanks for clearing that one up as I'd been thinking from what I'd read that TMG & SLMG seemed to be the same difference, I just thought I was missing something. That now makes alot more sense. As I said, I am hoping to get the TMG differences and do the GFT required for the rating so I can count both SEP & TMG hours.
The EASA issue, good question..... Anyone?
Also, as posted originally, does the taildragger sign-off on TMG count for SEP a/c too?
The EASA issue, good question..... Anyone?
Also, as posted originally, does the taildragger sign-off on TMG count for SEP a/c too?
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Also, as posted originally, does the taildragger sign-off on TMG count for SEP a/c too?
SS
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No agreed, me either, I see no difference, a T/D is a T/D. I just wondered if there was some obscure/arcane rule that made a distinction. (Let's face it, aviation is full of 'em!!!!).
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By way of explanation to anyone not following the acronyms:-
This may not be the legally correct answer but within gliding world an SLMG tends to be regarded as the aircraft that looks like a normal glider but has a pop up engine in the back and has sufficient power to self launch. With the engine stowed these a/c have the performance of a normal glider. (OK and there's the Stemme S10 which has a pop-out prop at the front)
A TMG is the one which looks more like a "normal" light aircraft e.g. engine & prop bolted to the front. The aircraft has longer wings and the prop can be feathered for gliding flight. They need a pretty good thermal to climb engine-off but have a much better glide angle than your average GA a/c.
Self sustainers look like a normal glider but have a pop up engine which does not (in theory anyway!) have enough power to take off unassisted but does (just about) have enough thrust to get you home in more ore less level flight when the thermals switch off.
From the glider pilot's perspective the important distinction between the SLMG/TMG and the self sustainer (SSMG) is that the SSMG can be flown by any glider pilot without needing all the PPL etc etc qualifications being discussed in this thread. Also (pre EASA) the SSMG's were covered by BGA CofA's and could be signed off by BGA inspectors - and hopefully will continue to be in the future.
The SLMG/TMG's have to conform to normal power aircraft maintenance rules (and costs) - but they don't need dual ignition
This may not be the legally correct answer but within gliding world an SLMG tends to be regarded as the aircraft that looks like a normal glider but has a pop up engine in the back and has sufficient power to self launch. With the engine stowed these a/c have the performance of a normal glider. (OK and there's the Stemme S10 which has a pop-out prop at the front)
A TMG is the one which looks more like a "normal" light aircraft e.g. engine & prop bolted to the front. The aircraft has longer wings and the prop can be feathered for gliding flight. They need a pretty good thermal to climb engine-off but have a much better glide angle than your average GA a/c.
Self sustainers look like a normal glider but have a pop up engine which does not (in theory anyway!) have enough power to take off unassisted but does (just about) have enough thrust to get you home in more ore less level flight when the thermals switch off.
From the glider pilot's perspective the important distinction between the SLMG/TMG and the self sustainer (SSMG) is that the SSMG can be flown by any glider pilot without needing all the PPL etc etc qualifications being discussed in this thread. Also (pre EASA) the SSMG's were covered by BGA CofA's and could be signed off by BGA inspectors - and hopefully will continue to be in the future.
The SLMG/TMG's have to conform to normal power aircraft maintenance rules (and costs) - but they don't need dual ignition
The rules change on 31st Jan with an amendment to the ANO which introduces yet another set of revalidation criteria for SLMGs.
If you get a TMG rating you can revalidate it with your SEP and fly SLMGs as well.
By definition a TMG has a Cof A, most SLMGs operate on Permits.
If you get a TMG rating you can revalidate it with your SEP and fly SLMGs as well.
By definition a TMG has a Cof A, most SLMGs operate on Permits.
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If you get a TMG rating you can revalidate it with your SEP and fly SLMGs as well.
SS
http://opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20073467_en_1
For SSEA, Microlight and SLMG on NPPL:
SLMG and Microlight on old UK Licence still 5 hours in 13 months
SLMG on JAA Licence as per NPPL.
For SSEA, Microlight and SLMG on NPPL:
(a) The holder has as a pilot, in an aeroplane specified in the aeroplane class rating and within the period of validity of the current certificate of revalidation for the rating–
(i) flown at least 12 hours which includes at least 8 hours as pilot in command;
(ii) completed at least 12 take-offs and 12 landings;
(iii) subject to sub-paragraph (b), undertaken at least 1 hour of flying training with an instructor entitled to give instruction on aeroplanes of that class; and
(iv) flown at least 6 hours in the 12 months preceding the specified date.
(b) Where the holder has not undertaken the flying training specified in paragraph 1(a)(iii) a certificate of revalidation may be issued but must be endorsed “single seat only”.
(i) flown at least 12 hours which includes at least 8 hours as pilot in command;
(ii) completed at least 12 take-offs and 12 landings;
(iii) subject to sub-paragraph (b), undertaken at least 1 hour of flying training with an instructor entitled to give instruction on aeroplanes of that class; and
(iv) flown at least 6 hours in the 12 months preceding the specified date.
(b) Where the holder has not undertaken the flying training specified in paragraph 1(a)(iii) a certificate of revalidation may be issued but must be endorsed “single seat only”.
SLMG on JAA Licence as per NPPL.
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SLMG and Microlight on old UK Licence still 5 hours in 13 months
SLMG on JAA Licence as per NPPL.
SLMG on JAA Licence as per NPPL.
SS
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not sure of all the ins and outs of the tmg/slmg i went to hinton on hedges, and got the school there to give me the ratings i needed for about 60 quid an hour, i now fly falkes, 109s, and RF3 (odd sep when i can afford it). Well worth doing, cant recommend the school at hinton enough.
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Re: the taildragger differences issue, I’m trying to find out at the moment whether doing it on a SLMG/TMG counts for SEP types too. Couldn’t find anywhere in LASORS that said it didnt. LASORS did say that differences training (taildragger, fixed wastegate turbo, pressurisation etc) done on the SEP class does not count on MEP class (although I understood that differences training with a FI is mandatory for each new MEP type you fly anyway) Will let you all know if gatwick give me an answer.
Points like this seem like trivia in a way, but I guess you could come unstuck with insurance over a technicality like this.
Points like this seem like trivia in a way, but I guess you could come unstuck with insurance over a technicality like this.
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Are differences training actually required for TMG. LASORS is not entirely clear. Quite an irony really that SLMG was introduced as SEP pilots were not coping well with low power motor glider types whereas nowadays the likes of the Dimona outperform many SEP types with such as turbo and VPs to make them go.
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Interesting point raised the other day by a glider pilot who's been learning on a "TMG" = engine on front, prop on front, fixed undercarriage.
If he wants to fly a "pop up" engined SLMG with retractable undercarriage what difference training would (in theory) be needed? (He's been flying a retractable u/c glider for years)
Even more interesting if difference training for the pop up engine is required, where could he get it? There's no-one I've heard of who offers formal training on one.
If he wants to fly a "pop up" engined SLMG with retractable undercarriage what difference training would (in theory) be needed? (He's been flying a retractable u/c glider for years)
Even more interesting if difference training for the pop up engine is required, where could he get it? There's no-one I've heard of who offers formal training on one.
See Appendix D to LASORS Section F:
In the UK for licensing purposes there is no distinction
between SLMG and TMG aircraft. UK issued licence
holders with a valid SLMG or TMG rating can fly any
motor glider (SLMG and TMG).
SLMG
‘an aircraft with the characteristics of a non power
driven glider and which is fitted with one or more power
units which is designed or intended to take off under its
own power’
TMG
‘a motor glider having a certificate of airworthiness
issued or accepted by a JAA Member State having an
integrally mounted, non retractable engine and a non
retractable propeller plus those listed in Appendix 1 to
JAR-FCL 1.215.’
The TMG Rating is a separate Class Rating under JAR-FCL for which training and a Skill Test are required. The SLMG Class Rating is now primarily a NPPL Class Rating - although it will be possible to add it to a UK-issued JAR-FCL pilot licence.
If you hold both a SEP Class Rating and a TMG Class Rating, hours flown in either Class count towards revalidation of both under JAR-FCL.
If you hold a NPPL with SSEA Rating and SLMG Rating, the new rules will also allow most hours flown on either Class to count towards revalidation of both under NPPL regulations. But you will have to fly at least 1 hour on each Class - there is no such requirement for JAR-FCL SEP/TMG Class Rating holders.
So, if you are an airline pilot who just wants to fly gliders and the occasional SLMG, the SLMG Class Rating would seem sensible. But if you're a SEP-flying JAR-FCL PPL holder who wants a lower cost revalidation alternative, the TMG rating would probably suit you better.
In the UK for licensing purposes there is no distinction
between SLMG and TMG aircraft. UK issued licence
holders with a valid SLMG or TMG rating can fly any
motor glider (SLMG and TMG).
SLMG
‘an aircraft with the characteristics of a non power
driven glider and which is fitted with one or more power
units which is designed or intended to take off under its
own power’
TMG
‘a motor glider having a certificate of airworthiness
issued or accepted by a JAA Member State having an
integrally mounted, non retractable engine and a non
retractable propeller plus those listed in Appendix 1 to
JAR-FCL 1.215.’
The TMG Rating is a separate Class Rating under JAR-FCL for which training and a Skill Test are required. The SLMG Class Rating is now primarily a NPPL Class Rating - although it will be possible to add it to a UK-issued JAR-FCL pilot licence.
If you hold both a SEP Class Rating and a TMG Class Rating, hours flown in either Class count towards revalidation of both under JAR-FCL.
If you hold a NPPL with SSEA Rating and SLMG Rating, the new rules will also allow most hours flown on either Class to count towards revalidation of both under NPPL regulations. But you will have to fly at least 1 hour on each Class - there is no such requirement for JAR-FCL SEP/TMG Class Rating holders.
So, if you are an airline pilot who just wants to fly gliders and the occasional SLMG, the SLMG Class Rating would seem sensible. But if you're a SEP-flying JAR-FCL PPL holder who wants a lower cost revalidation alternative, the TMG rating would probably suit you better.
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There is no differences training required (in law) in such a case. It's a bit like; "How do you give differences training for flying single seaters"?
Unless it's specified as requiring differences training, it doesn't. SLMG's and TMG's (you tell me the definative diffrence) of the various configurations are all lumped together, so legally they are classed as the same so far as the CAA is concerned. Of course a pop up engine SLMG will differ in handleing to a fixed engine SLMG, but a good briefing should be sufficient for a current SLMG/TMG with plenty of gliding experience.
SS
Unless it's specified as requiring differences training, it doesn't. SLMG's and TMG's (you tell me the definative diffrence) of the various configurations are all lumped together, so legally they are classed as the same so far as the CAA is concerned. Of course a pop up engine SLMG will differ in handleing to a fixed engine SLMG, but a good briefing should be sufficient for a current SLMG/TMG with plenty of gliding experience.
SS
So just check my thinking.....
In September I revalidated my NPPL SSEA rating with test conducted by an examiner. It had lapsed for about 6 months due to the 'rolling 6 hours in the 12 months preceding the flight' rule.
Can I assume (after 31st Jan) that my licence remains valid if:
I do 12 hrs by Sep 09, 8 as P1
6hrs in the second year
trip with a FI
Keep medical going.
And...
If I revalidate my Microlight rating,
I could keep both going by mixing the hours at better than 11:1?
BEagle- speak to me!
Thanks
CG
Can I assume (after 31st Jan) that my licence remains valid if:
I do 12 hrs by Sep 09, 8 as P1
6hrs in the second year
trip with a FI
Keep medical going.
And...
If I revalidate my Microlight rating,
I could keep both going by mixing the hours at better than 11:1?
BEagle- speak to me!
Thanks
CG
