G1000 CAT A approaches
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G1000 CAT A approaches
For those that use a G1000 you may be pleased to hear that the latest database cycle now contains CAT A approaches to airports. (at least to Cambridge). You can now load for monitoring purposes only of course 
a CAT A approach.
When you load the procedure you will get multiple iaf options (e.g. Cambridge ILS23 had two iaf - first is CAT C/D second is A/B.
For those that didnt know Jepp only had cat C/D previously. Dont know if this also applies to the Avidyne kit for Cirrus etc. or maybe other Garmin models.
a CAT A approach.When you load the procedure you will get multiple iaf options (e.g. Cambridge ILS23 had two iaf - first is CAT C/D second is A/B.
For those that didnt know Jepp only had cat C/D previously. Dont know if this also applies to the Avidyne kit for Cirrus etc. or maybe other Garmin models.
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Dunno, The paperwork for the GNS 430 was done between Tatenhill under modification TA135 for BRNAV. And the GPS bit was done by Airspeed at Derby with the Mode S.
But as I understand there are no approved GPS approaches yet anyway so we are still stuck with overlay. But at least having CAT A means the overlay now represents the plates.
But as I understand there are no approved GPS approaches yet anyway so we are still stuck with overlay. But at least having CAT A means the overlay now represents the plates.
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Thanx I've had the kit in the aircraft for B-RNAV and GPS approaches for eleven years and have only got around to the flight manual supliment a few weeks back as up untill now no one demanded it.
The paperwork seems to be taking on a life of it's own but it sould get done soon, I guess the bright side is that it is just a paperwork thing and the aircraft instalation was installed IAW the TSO form the start.
The paperwork seems to be taking on a life of it's own but it sould get done soon, I guess the bright side is that it is just a paperwork thing and the aircraft instalation was installed IAW the TSO form the start.
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This subject has been done to death so many times, but has anybody actually DONE it??
BRNAV approval is not an issue - this is old hat and many reasonably recent planes (e.g. the TB20) have had a BRNAV GPS (KLN94 or GNSx30 in this case) installed under the original type certificate. Simply screwing a GPS (of the type on the original TC) into the panel, with an appropriately positioned CDI, will yield a BRNAV approved installation.
But for flying GPS approaches one needs the custom POH supplement which (for a G-reg) needs to be EASA approved and there have been various threats of it being a Major Mod. I have so far not heard of anybody who has got this in their hand. If they do, I would like to actually see it, who they got it from and how much they paid for it (confidentially of course). If somebody has actually got one they will of course know all about it, and the cost.
For an N-reg, the GPS approach requirement is met with an FAA approved POH supplement too. This is VERY old hat in the USA (well over 10 years old) but I have so far not heard of anybody who has got this done in the UK. I did hear from one chap who claimed to have got it done via FAA at Heathrow but my investigation has drawn a blank and his own avionics shop denies any knowledge of it (well this is GA after all...) but they do remember a case a few years back where the application had to be sent to the USA and "cost a packet". I tried to obtain a custom POH supplement for my GPS via this same (well known) shop but despite many reminders they washed their hands of it. I told them to do it within a £500 budget or at least let me know the cost but they couldn't be bothered.
So.... for all the talk talk talk more talk, everywhere, my guess is that nobody actually cares - unsuprising since there are no useful GPS approaches anywhere in Europe. By "useful" I mean at airports where there isn't a conventional approach which can be flown (without spending any money on custom POH supplements) using either the Jepp "overlay" depiction or by using the OBS mode
BRNAV approval is not an issue - this is old hat and many reasonably recent planes (e.g. the TB20) have had a BRNAV GPS (KLN94 or GNSx30 in this case) installed under the original type certificate. Simply screwing a GPS (of the type on the original TC) into the panel, with an appropriately positioned CDI, will yield a BRNAV approved installation.
But for flying GPS approaches one needs the custom POH supplement which (for a G-reg) needs to be EASA approved and there have been various threats of it being a Major Mod. I have so far not heard of anybody who has got this in their hand. If they do, I would like to actually see it, who they got it from and how much they paid for it (confidentially of course). If somebody has actually got one they will of course know all about it, and the cost.
For an N-reg, the GPS approach requirement is met with an FAA approved POH supplement too. This is VERY old hat in the USA (well over 10 years old) but I have so far not heard of anybody who has got this done in the UK. I did hear from one chap who claimed to have got it done via FAA at Heathrow but my investigation has drawn a blank and his own avionics shop denies any knowledge of it (well this is GA after all...) but they do remember a case a few years back where the application had to be sent to the USA and "cost a packet". I tried to obtain a custom POH supplement for my GPS via this same (well known) shop but despite many reminders they washed their hands of it. I told them to do it within a £500 budget or at least let me know the cost but they couldn't be bothered.
So.... for all the talk talk talk more talk, everywhere, my guess is that nobody actually cares - unsuprising since there are no useful GPS approaches anywhere in Europe. By "useful" I mean at airports where there isn't a conventional approach which can be flown (without spending any money on custom POH supplements) using either the Jepp "overlay" depiction or by using the OBS mode
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For an N-reg, the GPS approach requirement is met with an FAA approved POH supplement too.
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Nice plane Drauk, and I know - I've flown in it.
So .... we have a count of ONE so far on UK based FAA approvals, and a count of ZERO on substantiated EASA approvals. Anybody?
So .... we have a count of ONE so far on UK based FAA approvals, and a count of ZERO on substantiated EASA approvals. Anybody?
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Peter, I am genuinely mystified by this view you have that FAA IFR approved GPS (with GPS approaches in the AFM Supplement) fits are incredibly rare in the UK.
Mine was done about 3 years ago so I don't remember all the details, but the process is straightforward enough, if a little involved.
There are 2 steps
1. the installation of the equipment
Your engineering people do the installation and an IA signs the Form 337. I was having a lot of work done and moving it to the N-reg at the time, so also needed a DER and DAR to sign things off, but I'm not sure an IFR GPS would need more than a 337 and an IA. I think the 337 is sent to the London IFO, and unless they have an issue with it, it's filed and you are fine.
At this point the GPS is placarded "VFR only".
2. IFR approval
This needs two things: a flight test report in accordance with AC20-138A and a Flight Manual Supplement.
You can do the former yourself, and the latter the engineering people get from Garmin and tweak if required. They send both to the London IFO, and you get the FM Supp back signed.
That's it.
I found no problems in any step of this process and it shouldn't take more than a few weeks. My avionics people have done it several times since.
Unless something has changed, if an avionics company tells you it's impossible or can't be done or very very hard then (IMHO) it's because they don't know how to. The above description should be about right, but I wasn't closely involved except for the flight test report, so I may have got something muddled.
rgds
421C
Peter, I am genuinely mystified by this view you have that FAA IFR approved GPS (with GPS approaches in the AFM Supplement) fits are incredibly rare in the UK.
Mine was done about 3 years ago so I don't remember all the details, but the process is straightforward enough, if a little involved.
There are 2 steps
1. the installation of the equipment
Your engineering people do the installation and an IA signs the Form 337. I was having a lot of work done and moving it to the N-reg at the time, so also needed a DER and DAR to sign things off, but I'm not sure an IFR GPS would need more than a 337 and an IA. I think the 337 is sent to the London IFO, and unless they have an issue with it, it's filed and you are fine.
At this point the GPS is placarded "VFR only".
2. IFR approval
This needs two things: a flight test report in accordance with AC20-138A and a Flight Manual Supplement.
You can do the former yourself, and the latter the engineering people get from Garmin and tweak if required. They send both to the London IFO, and you get the FM Supp back signed.
That's it.
I found no problems in any step of this process and it shouldn't take more than a few weeks. My avionics people have done it several times since.
Unless something has changed, if an avionics company tells you it's impossible or can't be done or very very hard then (IMHO) it's because they don't know how to. The above description should be about right, but I wasn't closely involved except for the flight test report, so I may have got something muddled.
rgds
421C
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Thank you for the very useful post, 421C.
What happened in my case was this:
My KLN94 was already BRNAV approved, by being on the DGAC-approved original TB20 TC with BRNAV.
The avionics shop I got to do the approach approval phoned up the UK FAA office and they said they will accept the BRNAV approval as it is, so long as I have an actual DGAC-rubber-stamped POH supplement with BRNAV (which I have).
So I took that as good enough for enroute IFR.
I then asked the same shop to progress that to full approach approval, and that is where the block appeared. I pushed them a few times and eventually gave up.
If there were useful GPS approaches about, I would revisit the matter. I normally just fly the ILS.
For clarification, I don't doubt there are loads of approach approved GPSs in N-reg planes based in the UK. It was getting the approval done in the UK which seemed difficult.
What happened in my case was this:
My KLN94 was already BRNAV approved, by being on the DGAC-approved original TB20 TC with BRNAV.
The avionics shop I got to do the approach approval phoned up the UK FAA office and they said they will accept the BRNAV approval as it is, so long as I have an actual DGAC-rubber-stamped POH supplement with BRNAV (which I have).
So I took that as good enough for enroute IFR.
I then asked the same shop to progress that to full approach approval, and that is where the block appeared. I pushed them a few times and eventually gave up.
If there were useful GPS approaches about, I would revisit the matter. I normally just fly the ILS.
For clarification, I don't doubt there are loads of approach approved GPSs in N-reg planes based in the UK. It was getting the approval done in the UK which seemed difficult.
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I think I understand. The difficulty is that for European registration in years past, Socata must have deleted the GPS NPA part from the KLN94 FMSup - otherwise it would be more difficult to get an FAA IFR approved GPS without GPS approach approval than with - because the standard IFR FMSup for GPS boxes since the KLN89B/KLN90 era includes GPS NPA approaches ie. to not be GPS approach approved but approved for IFR/BRNAV, your avionics people would actively have to delete the appropriate bit of the FMSup.
I was referring to N-reg retrofits done in the UK. I think the problem is that some avionics shops may be very familiar with installation/engineering approvals through having an in-house IA or using one of the many independent IAs/DERs to come in and inspect and sign-off work. The IFR approval is a specific process that requires the London IFO to approve the flight test and FMSup - and this is a more "obscure" step that they are not familiar with. But there certainly are UK avionics outfits who are perfectly familiar with the process.
BTW, the New York IFO deals with pilot licensing and operational approvals (eg. MELs, PRNAV) and the London IFO only with maintenance matters (I think it's there to mainly approve and oversee airliner maintenance). So as N-reg operators in Europe, one has little to do with the London IFO other than IFR approval.
rgds
421C
on EASA, I have little knowledge of the processes, but (apart from the major mod cost) I would be surprised if there wasn't a fairly straightforward EASA way of getting IFR and Approach approval for GPS. We may not have them in the UK, but GPS Approaches have been around in France and Germany for a while.
I was referring to N-reg retrofits done in the UK. I think the problem is that some avionics shops may be very familiar with installation/engineering approvals through having an in-house IA or using one of the many independent IAs/DERs to come in and inspect and sign-off work. The IFR approval is a specific process that requires the London IFO to approve the flight test and FMSup - and this is a more "obscure" step that they are not familiar with. But there certainly are UK avionics outfits who are perfectly familiar with the process.
BTW, the New York IFO deals with pilot licensing and operational approvals (eg. MELs, PRNAV) and the London IFO only with maintenance matters (I think it's there to mainly approve and oversee airliner maintenance). So as N-reg operators in Europe, one has little to do with the London IFO other than IFR approval.
rgds
421C
on EASA, I have little knowledge of the processes, but (apart from the major mod cost) I would be surprised if there wasn't a fairly straightforward EASA way of getting IFR and Approach approval for GPS. We may not have them in the UK, but GPS Approaches have been around in France and Germany for a while.
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421C
Historically, the DGAC would not approve a FM supplement authorising GPS approach usage, and anyway the only place where this mattered was the USA where the Socata dealer (a factory outlet, actually) would routinely do the FM approach supplement, dynamically balance the prop, etc. before delivery of the plane.
A year or two ago I vaguely recall reading the requirements for flying the early French GPS approaches, and it was just BRNAV equipment. Not a specific approach approval. Maybe this has changed.
Historically, the DGAC would not approve a FM supplement authorising GPS approach usage, and anyway the only place where this mattered was the USA where the Socata dealer (a factory outlet, actually) would routinely do the FM approach supplement, dynamically balance the prop, etc. before delivery of the plane.
A year or two ago I vaguely recall reading the requirements for flying the early French GPS approaches, and it was just BRNAV equipment. Not a specific approach approval. Maybe this has changed.
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421C's description of the process matches my understanding of how mine was done precisely. It was done by Tatenhil Avionics for a fairly modest fee, though it did take them a cool 11 months.
