incident at EMA (midair over Leicestershire)
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To the CAA Airspace guys - the more class D airspace you allocate the more this will happen.
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Quote:
To the CAA Airspace guys - the more class D airspace you allocate the more this will happen.
Possibly the most useless comment on this thread as it had little or no bearing on the incident - Both were operating in class 'G', neither were being "funneled" down a narrow gap. A radar service / transit of class 'D' would have been available had it been asked for - it wasn't.
To the CAA Airspace guys - the more class D airspace you allocate the more this will happen.
Possibly the most useless comment on this thread as it had little or no bearing on the incident - Both were operating in class 'G', neither were being "funneled" down a narrow gap. A radar service / transit of class 'D' would have been available had it been asked for - it wasn't.
To the crew that didn't make it, bugger, very sorry, RIP.
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Midair Crash
From the suviving pilot`s mayday call..." think I have hit something.." it appears to me that the ill fated plane was below and was hit by the surviving pilot above taking off all of his wheels and probably killing the pilot below having smacked the cockpit.
I`ll never forget my instructors words..scan high... scan low......
My deepest sympathy to their families at this time.
P/s: Pilots should not die on roads,pilots die in the air. I pray the lord my soul to keep when my time is up either as a pax or PIC.
The Sarge.
I`ll never forget my instructors words..scan high... scan low......
My deepest sympathy to their families at this time.
P/s: Pilots should not die on roads,pilots die in the air. I pray the lord my soul to keep when my time is up either as a pax or PIC.
The Sarge.
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Mid Air Crash
As far as it was announced,both planes were on a pleasure flight and were not directed by a controller at the time.
Cheers.
May their souls R.I.P.
Cheers.
May their souls R.I.P.
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ShyTorque
Separation in class D? You need to look up your Air Law, mate! Separation is given in class D airspace only between aircraft flying IFR. That is why it is easier to get clearance across Luton zone VFR than IFR, as I have occasionally found.
You are right that it is safer, and they will give you traffic information if they can, but you are still "see and avoid"!
Separation in class D? You need to look up your Air Law, mate! Separation is given in class D airspace only between aircraft flying IFR. That is why it is easier to get clearance across Luton zone VFR than IFR, as I have occasionally found.
You are right that it is safer, and they will give you traffic information if they can, but you are still "see and avoid"!
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Mid Air Crash
Now...now I was tempted to make a statement,but that is for the Crash Investigators as I am not experienced or authorised in this delicate area of work.I try to use common sense in my deductions from what was printed in the news i.e the pilots mayday call. As such it is not for me at this time,even in an Air Forum to guess why it happened....who was not looking or strayed altittute. My heart goes out to my fellow beings as we reach out to touch the face of God for what ever the reasons be.
The Sarge.
The Sarge.
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Takes me back to a VFR flight down the west coast of FL, USA.
I teach my students now, if there is a radar service available then USE IT!!!
In any case, back in '94 low hours PPL in a PA28 decides that, because the ATC controller sounds busy I won't climb to Class B airspace and request flight following (to all intents and purposes a RIS) but just bimble down the coast below CAS at 2,000'. Now I am not going to go down the 'ah ah ah' spooky road and don't ask me why but for no apparent reason I just felt this coincidental impulse to lean forward and look up, just to see a wide mouthed, white faced Cessna pilot just about to descend into my roof; one hard, diving turn to the right saw me miss the bloke by God knows how few feet. The bottom line is 'an inch or a mile, we still missed', however, for the sake of 1,000' and a single radio call that potentially disastrous scenario would have been avoided. My c*kc up!
Please, if the service is available then use it!
No, you may not always get what you ask for but you do stand a damn sight better chance with than without and if you don't ask you don't get.
Edited to emphasise the following post - RIS will help but Mk1 eyeball is a bloody brilliant tool and should never be underestimated or ignored and I would never wish to suggest for one second that a radar service under VFR should or would absolve any PIC of his 'see and avoid' responsibilities.
I teach my students now, if there is a radar service available then USE IT!!!
In any case, back in '94 low hours PPL in a PA28 decides that, because the ATC controller sounds busy I won't climb to Class B airspace and request flight following (to all intents and purposes a RIS) but just bimble down the coast below CAS at 2,000'. Now I am not going to go down the 'ah ah ah' spooky road and don't ask me why but for no apparent reason I just felt this coincidental impulse to lean forward and look up, just to see a wide mouthed, white faced Cessna pilot just about to descend into my roof; one hard, diving turn to the right saw me miss the bloke by God knows how few feet. The bottom line is 'an inch or a mile, we still missed', however, for the sake of 1,000' and a single radio call that potentially disastrous scenario would have been avoided. My c*kc up!
Please, if the service is available then use it!
No, you may not always get what you ask for but you do stand a damn sight better chance with than without and if you don't ask you don't get.
Edited to emphasise the following post - RIS will help but Mk1 eyeball is a bloody brilliant tool and should never be underestimated or ignored and I would never wish to suggest for one second that a radar service under VFR should or would absolve any PIC of his 'see and avoid' responsibilities.
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Hows about we just put TCAS on every single aircraft?
The above comment is not speculation about the cause of this accident but a remark on a previous post.
2close the information available at this time suggests that the lower aircraft was in the climb out from a private strip so taking part in reliable radar service may not be an issue
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LLanfairpg, isn't is quite frightening that you still hear some claim to be VFR in IMC????????
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Originally Posted by llanfairpg
Originally Posted by 2close
LLanfairpg, isn't is quite frightening that you still hear some claim to be VFR in IMC????????
I can also say that I have sat alongside the person who, having taken off VFR, has climbed into solid muck and called for a RIS being "VFR in IMC".
Really???
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>>>I teach my students now, if there is a radar service available then USE IT!!!<<<
In the three flights I made this past week I asked for a RIS but was only offered an FIS.
In the three flights I made this past week I asked for a RIS but was only offered an FIS.
Luvverley!
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OK, I'm gonna bite.
A RIS can be refused for reasons outside the requesting pilot's knowledge. eg
1) Poor radar performance in some areas. This can be because of such things as high ground, wind farms and the like.
2) ATCO workload. We do not possess infinite capacity. There is only a finite amount of time to monitor progress of flights, and to speak and receive transmissions and pass flight and traffic info.
Just for starters!
However, I would like to refer back to llanfairpg's point that it was likely that the "lower" a/c was climbing out from a strip, and therefore renders the whole radar point a bit irrelevant.
Thankfully, "mid-airs" are rare. Anything that we can learn from this will be valuable, I hope, to ALL of us.
Foxy
A RIS can be refused for reasons outside the requesting pilot's knowledge. eg
1) Poor radar performance in some areas. This can be because of such things as high ground, wind farms and the like.
2) ATCO workload. We do not possess infinite capacity. There is only a finite amount of time to monitor progress of flights, and to speak and receive transmissions and pass flight and traffic info.
Just for starters!
However, I would like to refer back to llanfairpg's point that it was likely that the "lower" a/c was climbing out from a strip, and therefore renders the whole radar point a bit irrelevant.
Thankfully, "mid-airs" are rare. Anything that we can learn from this will be valuable, I hope, to ALL of us.
Foxy
Foxy Loxy
Thankfully, "mid-airs" are rare. Anything that we can learn from this will be valuable, I hope, to ALL of us.
It would be good if the GA fraternity in particular did 'learn from the experience of others'. Although mid-air collisions are rare, many other GA accidents are merely repeats............where the pilots did not learn from the experience of others.
H49
Thankfully, "mid-airs" are rare. Anything that we can learn from this will be valuable, I hope, to ALL of us.
It would be good if the GA fraternity in particular did 'learn from the experience of others'. Although mid-air collisions are rare, many other GA accidents are merely repeats............where the pilots did not learn from the experience of others.
H49
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Traffic alerters
Out of interest, does anyone have any idea if the Traffic Awareness units on sale for under £400 actually work? At that price, it might be worth splashing out if they are any good.
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As an aside, the IFR's don't add much for avoiding midairs below the TA (where most happen) even in IMC
.
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Very depressing post that I imagine all of us who fly are reading closely to try to learn from and reduce this very rare tragic occurence.
I was flying yesterday and it was very hazy, as we went over Brize Norton airfield under RIS control going north, a high wing appeared on a direct collision course to us and a very quick manoeuvre was needed. The brize radar had had no contact with the pilot who may be asked on landing to conact them. The point I'm making is not to name & shame but to remind us all that if you are going into airspace, controlled or not where there are ATC's operating for heavens sake talk to them. The more traffic information we all have the better.
(We were in a cirrus where you could see all the transponder active traffic, but this conflicting plane was not squarking charlie, an obvious limitation to TCAS)
Thoughts with all famillies concerned, especially just before Christmas.
LF
I was flying yesterday and it was very hazy, as we went over Brize Norton airfield under RIS control going north, a high wing appeared on a direct collision course to us and a very quick manoeuvre was needed. The brize radar had had no contact with the pilot who may be asked on landing to conact them. The point I'm making is not to name & shame but to remind us all that if you are going into airspace, controlled or not where there are ATC's operating for heavens sake talk to them. The more traffic information we all have the better.
(We were in a cirrus where you could see all the transponder active traffic, but this conflicting plane was not squarking charlie, an obvious limitation to TCAS)
Thoughts with all famillies concerned, especially just before Christmas.
LF
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LateFinals,
What altitude were you over Brize? Their CAS extends only to 3500ft.
Llanfairpg,
I believe that the last mid-air in IMC in the UK was in WW2. Mid-airs seem to happen invariably in VMC. I'm not sure what that tells you about IFR vs VFR - the big sky theory might just work better in IMC...
Tim
What altitude were you over Brize? Their CAS extends only to 3500ft.
Llanfairpg,
I believe that the last mid-air in IMC in the UK was in WW2. Mid-airs seem to happen invariably in VMC. I'm not sure what that tells you about IFR vs VFR - the big sky theory might just work better in IMC...
Tim
The Original Whirly
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This is very, very sad....but it was a one in a million chance, even with the poor vis. I fly in that area all the time. I take trial lesson students over to Blithfield Reservoir, because it's five minutes fromTatenhill where we're based, it's very pretty, students can have a go at flying round the reservoir (nice beginner's challenge) and IT'S NOT AT ALL CROWDED most of the time. You can't prevent or legislate against one in a million chances!