PPL aircraft question

[occasional flyer]

I'm a newbie to the forum and would like one particular question answered if possible.

Which aircraft can one fly with a PPL (a full and comprehensive list would be appreciated)

Cheers

Occasional Flyer

[christimson]

John Travolta is a PPL. I believe he flys his own B707. So almost anything with a type rating.

[Shunter]

Travolta has an ATPL (so I'm told). Probably sensible since he "guests" as a pilot for Qantas occasionally. I was under the impression that there was a weight limit for the aircraft a PPL could fly... not concrete on that though.

Edit: or maybe he hasn't, opinions as always, vary...http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...5&postcount=12

[micromalc]

type

I am afraid that your question is a little vague.But assuming you are going to fly a single engine type, try looking at the classifieds.Everything from super-cubs (great for farmstrips) to "hairy" aerobatics planes. Try:
www.flyer.co.uk/classifieds/
Then just talk to as many pilots as you can.

[Vee One...Rotate]

If you fancy an afternoon of sifting, I'm told the privelages of a PPL are in The Air Navigation Order, Schedule 8.

Have fun

[BackPacker]

Occasional Flyer, the answers so far have all been along the lines of "basically everything" to "look in the ANO" or "look in the classifieds". All true, but since you seem to be new to this whole flying thing, let me put it in simple words.

The basic PPL, what almost everybody goes for, legally allows you to fly "single engine piston" aircraft up to a max. take-off weight (well, mass actually) of something like 5700 kilograms (I think - have to look up Air Law for the exact number). Initially, the aircraft also cannot be "high performance" (over 250 Hp), nor "complex" (retractable gear, variable pitch prop) nor a "taildragger".

This includes basically all your typical school/rental two and four seater, single engine aircraft like Cessnas, Pipers, Robins and so forth.

Onto the basic PPL you can add endorsements, qualifications and ratings for different other aircraft types, configurations and characteristics, such as complex, high performance or taildraggers, or aircraft that have multiple engines, aircraft that are heavier than the mass limit mentioned, aircraft with jet or turboprop engines, complex aircraft with retractable gear, and so forth and so on.

And indeed, technically/legally you can obtain an A380 type rating on just a PPL. Although typically those type rating courses teach the type rating to ATPL standards and as a 45-hour PPL you'll have to struggle to keep up with your classmates....

That's the legal side. From a practical point of view, virtually all operators/owners of aircraft require you to do a checkout with a designated instructor (or check pilot) before they allow you to fly their precious airplane(s). That's in addition to all the legal requirements and is just a way to make sure for the operator (and sometimes the insurance as well) that you indeed know enough about the aircraft to fly and handle it safely.

Having said that, if you are competent and experienced on type, a typical checkout will take no more than 30 to 60 minutes and is sometimes combined with things like local area familiarization as well. If you're not familiar with the exact type or model, the checkout might be a little longer to much longer, depending on how fast you pick things up, your experience with different subsystems and so forth.

[IRRenewal]

It's all in JAR-FCL 1, which can be found here.
To quote:
JAR–FCL 1.110 Privileges and conditions
(a) Privileges. Subject to any other
conditions specified in JARs, the privileges of
the holder of a PPL(A) are to act, but not for
remuneration, as pilot-in-command or co-pilot of
any aeroplane engaged in non-revenue flights.

But before you all book yourself on a type rating for the A380, read section F of JAR-FCL first which lists the hurdles to take before you can do so.

[DX Wombat]

This is the largest SEP you can fly on your PPL - subject to the usual differences training.

In case you don't know what it is, it's an Antonov AN2.

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by shunter

Travolta has an ATPL (so I'm told). Probably sensible since he "guests" as a pilot for Qantas occasionally. I was under the impression that there was a weight limit for the aircraft a PPL could fly... not concrete on that though.

Edit: or maybe he hasn't, opinions as always, vary...http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...5&postcount=12

The definitive answer is on the FAA website - Private Licence only:

DOI: 12/12/2005
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT

Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE

Type Ratings

P/B-707 P/B-720 P/CE-500 P/G-1159 P/HS-125
P/LR-JET

Limits

B-707 SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY.
CE-500 (VFR ONLY).

[Dr Jekyll]

What a lot of people new to flying don't realise is that the difference between a private licence and a commercial one is essentially that a commercial means you can be paid for flying.

What type of aircraft you can fly depends on differences training and type ratings rather than which licence you have.

[3 Point]

DX Wombat and others should note that there is no weight limit for a JAR PPL or for the SEP rating included within the licence. There is also no limit to the engine power and the requirement for difference training for particular features is a simple mater of getting training from a suitably qualified instructor so that you are sufficiently familiar to operate the aeroplane safely.

The licence allows you to be the pilot of an aeroplane; in the case of a PPL you may not be paid as a pilot (notwithstanding several minor exceptions). The basic Single Piston Landplane rating which most people will have included in their licence at the point of issue allows you to fly the majority of basic single engined aeroplanes and with additional training you can then add a broader range of types.

In theory you could fly an airliner on your PPL but in practice the amount of extra training you would need would be about the same as taking a professional licence and the expense involved would be enormous.

Happy landings

3 point

[Whirlybird]

In theory you could fly an airliner on your PPL

I've got a feeling someone has. I have a vague memory of hearing about it, but I just can't remember who it was - not John Travolta I don't think, so maybe there's someone else.

[BackPacker]

DX Wombat and others should note that there is no weight limit for a JAR PPL or for the SEP rating included within the licence.

Occasionalflyer, did the thread already give you an answer to your question?

Because me, DX and 3 Point are all correct with regards to the weight limit, but to understand this requires a detailed explanation of the difference between a class and a type rating, and the occasional need to get differences training within a class rating. Something that's normally buried deep inside the Air Law books.

So far you can safely assume that on a PPL(A) you can fly anything listed in the classifieds at the back end of your favourite general aviation magazine, except helicopters. In some cases you might need additional training, but most of the aircraft you can legally fly without that. (Not that that is always wise, mind you.)

[occasional flyer]

Cheers for all the replies peeps. I guess my question was a bit vague but thanx to you all for clarifing matters. I am looking into doing a PPL(A) course sometime in the future just for the sheer hell of it. A professional career is probably beyond me now (age, family, settled career etc) but I would still love to fly just for pure fun and to take the family for a spin now and again. Found some good info too on PPL mania.

Ta

OC

[DX Wombat]

DX Wombat and others should note that there is no weight limit for a JAR PPL or for the SEP rating included within the licence.

I'm a little puzzled. I don't recall mentioning anything about weight. As far as I am aware the AN2 is the largest SEP in existence which is still flying. Surely that then makes it the largest SEP which can be flown on a PPL(A) subject to differences training?
OF - do it. I started my PPL just before I retired and it has been the best thing I have done. You won't regret it.

[BackPacker]

DX, to the best of my knowledge the weight limit has nothing to do with the PPL(A) itself. It's just that all aircraft with an MTOM higher than, as I recall, 5700 kilos require a type rating by default. So your class rating SEP(A) which you gain alongside the PPL(A) itself (assuming you do your flight test in a SEP(A)) doesn't cover any aircraft with an MTOM above 5700 kilos.

That's not to say that anything below 5700 kilos is automatically allowed on the SEP(A) class rating. Apparently there are a few SEP(A) aircraft with an MTOM of less than 5700 kilos that require a type rating anyway. My Air Law book mentiones the Piper Malibu.

[DX Wombat]

Thanks BackPacker. It was one of the FIs who taught me who told me that the AN2 was the largest SEP which a PPL(A) was allowed to fly and I'm pretty sure he said it was subject only to differences training. It's a very graceful aircraft to watch.

[Mikehotel152]

From Wikipedia about the Antonov AN2:

"An interesting note from the pilot's handbook reads: "If the engine quits in instrument conditions (blind flying when you can't see the ground) or at night, the pilot should pull the control column full aft (it won't stall) and keep the wings level. The leading-edge slats will snap out at about 40 mph (64 km/h), and when the airplane slows to a forward speed of about 25 mph [40 km/h], the airplane will sink at about a parachute descent rate until the aircraft hits the ground."

Who needs a fancy Cirrus then?

[julian_storey]

Backpacker is right.

There is not (so far as I am aware) any kind of PPL weight restriction, HOWEVER the SEP (Land) class rating only allows you to fly aircraft up to 5,700kg with a single piston engine - with the notable exception of the piston engined PA46 Piper Malibu which for some reason best known to the CAA requires a type rating if it's on the 'G' register.

Interestingly an FAA licence works a little differently. Instead of SEP (Land) you have an Airplane Single Engine Land class rating with which you could fly the very same Malibu (if it was on the 'N' register) - even a turbine engined Cessna Caravan!

As someone would undoubtedly have pointed out, it's actually a little more complicated than that. For an FAA PPL holder to fly a Malibu they would need to have received training (and had their logbooks endorsed) in respect of pressurised aircraft, retractable gear etc.

[BackPacker]

As someone would undoubtedly have pointed out, it's actually a little more complicated than that. For an FAA PPL holder to fly a Malibu they would need to have received training (and had their logbooks endorsed) in respect of pressurised aircraft, retractable gear etc.

Well, allright, let's put that last bit of Air Law relevant to this on the table as well then. In JAA-land, within the SEP(A) class rating, there is an additional *legal* requirement to get differences training from a suitably qualified instructor, and an endorsement from same, in case of:

• Variable Pitch (VP) propellor
• Retractable undercarriage
• Turbo/supercharged engines
• Cabin pressurisation
• Tailwheel undercarriage

The advantage of this is that it stays completely within the class rating. So once you've had your differences training to fly an aircraft with a tailwheel configuration, you're legal to fly any tailwheel aircraft within the SEP(A) class without any further training.

Again, whether that's wise is another matter.

Note that there are a few anomalies here, where modern technology has progressed beyond what the law currently regulates. As an example, I am checked out on the DA-40 TDI and the Robin DR200-135CDI. Both have a Thielert turbo diesel engine with a constant speed propellor. But both the turbo (wastegate) and the constant speed governor are controlled by one lever. In fact, the lever just inputs the desired performance to the FADEC/ECU computer, who regulates throttle, fuel flow, RPM, manifold pressure and everything, even taking into account ambient air pressure and temperature. Technically, I'm now legal to fly any turbocharged and VP propellor within the SEP(A) class, but it would be extremely unwise for me to do so. And I don't think that's what the law intended to achieve either. Perhaps there should be a separate "FADEC" differences training requirement, separate from the others.

By the same token, you could also make an argument for legally required differences training with regards to glass cockpits like the G1000.