Pitts - what's the catch?

[Justiciar]

Speaking as someone with a grand total of one and a half hours on the Eagle I can say that the first sortie was pretty dire but after that it starts to come together. Thats not to say I am any way close to going solo but it is far from impossible, just different. One of the main things is not to flare and pull the stick into your stomach as you would on a cub. Speed is far more critical and mustn't get low or you will drop. It is just a difference in technique which can be learned like everything else.

Quite looking forward to a further sortie or two this weekend ..... Stik

[Barcli]

JUSTICIAR - glad your enjoying it !!! its the aviations answer to the TVR !!! - come bag with big grin every time !!
out of interest where you coming down south with Stik to check out my Eagle when it was for sale earlier this year ?

[petes1s]

"So why are Pitts Special's so cheap? A friend of mine said he saw one the other day for £20k. Thats Cesspit money. And I'm staring at an ad for an S1S with only 65 airframe hours on sale for £30k. There must be a catch surely?"

As with all things you get what you pay for.
Pitts aren't especially cheap to build despite their size - for one thing there are a lot of expensive bearings and other specialist fittings which add to the cost. not to mention engine life.
Some Pitts of seemingly the same type are not as well built - especially if they are imported US homebuilts for example.
Also - like a TVR - you need to be wary of the history of some Pitts - especially those which have been hammered round the competition circuit for decades. You may find cracked longerons/broken ribs etc

A £20k Pitts is probably priced to sell knowing it needs a rebuild for example.
The best thing is to get someone who knows Pitts to adivse on the specific example.

Having said all that

They are the best bang for bucks you'll ever get, the performance and cost to run are both very satisfying, and they look brilliant.
It is possible to convince yourself that your 30 mins high energy sortie you just did has only cost about 25 quid
- I have a beautiful american homebuilt S-1S and a brand new Ultimate wing version with every concievable mod/fairing nearly completed

I can't imagine paying the massive extra premium for (a) a Cof A aeroplane (b) a monoplane with a big engine (c) a VP prop or even (d) a two seater

PeteS1S

[Justiciar]

where you coming down south with Stik to check out my Eagle when it was for sale earlier this year ?

If yours is the one sold to the late Brian Brown then yes that was me. I was up at Breighton a few weeks later saw it in the hangar and very much regretted not jumping in that bit quicker. As I recall the weather was so bad we were having to drive down

Nice hearing from you again.

[Zulu Alpha]

I can't imagine paying the massive extra premium for ................... (b) a monoplane with a big engine (c) a VP prop

And how do you get on in aerobatics competitions then?
The simplest single seat Pitts are quite cheap. However, after a while you may want to progress beyond LAROSA (Loops and Rolls on a Sunday afternoon).
What can you do with a single aileron, fixed pitch, single seater? It will be limited in its competitiveness, you cannot take people up for LAROSAs etc. It is good fun for going up and playing around, but you may get tired of this.
Thats why people have two ailerons , CS props etc to improve their competitiveness in aerobatic competitions.
There are also two seat versions for those who want to make their mates sick with LAROSAS.
The monoplanes are generally regarded as more competitive
However these all cost more.
So unless you want to be selling and buying again within a year or two, you should think about what you will want to do and spend the extra money up front.
Beware though, flying aerobatics will spoil you, flying straight and level in a Cessna or Piper will seem very tame (boring?) so there will be no going back
ZA

[Barcli]

JUSTICIAR - good to hear from you - glad you now have one and sorted out !!! - just keep telling Stik how much better they are !!

[Justiciar]

just keep telling Stik how much better they are !!

A bit of a dyed in the wool Pitts man me thinks.

Were you about to build yourself a new one when we last spoke?

[KZ8]

One chap last year (or was it the year before) was very competitive in a 150-hp two-aileron S-1C Pitts, I think that he won a few standard level competitions. He has now upgraded it with symmetrical wings for more roll-rate.

In general, you do seem to get what you pay for, in terms of specification and condition/reliability.

KZ8

[stiknruda]

Justiciar, am around this week and at the w/e. SS was threatening to come over this morning but I think the wx has put paid to that.
IS is due to make contact tonight to let me know his plans for flying with you and partying this w/e, though I think England in the RWC final might prove a more tempting prospect for both of us than flying with you Sunday!!
I like the Eagle, I really do, I think that some bits of it have been very well thought out. I like the single bubble canopy, I like the spring gear. Yes it more capacious and it faster but it seems a lot heavier in all 3 axis than the S2A. More akin to an S2B.
I don't particularly enjoy bringing it into a short strip with a howling x-wind - zero dihedral really does have the wing tip close to the ground. Not such a big deal somewhere (like in the US) long as you can approach a wee bit faster and wheel it on.
I don't like the oil cooler mounted to the botom cowl, what a pain in the arse that is! I don't like how close the bottom cowl is to the oil return pipe on #2cyl.
And in general, they are a heavier, my S2A < 1100lbs. Most Eagles (with all the bits on!!!!) are >1100lbs
If I couldn't have a Pitts, then I'd have an Eagle.
Hell, I even like Extras, hat they don't have imho, is the timeless appeal of the Pitts. A biplane on steroids!
ZA - although I agree with you, you must remember that 30 years ago very few competitive mounts had c/s props. The chaps just worked harder or ignored overspeeds.

[eharding]

Originally Posted by Zulu Alpha

The monoplanes are generally regarded as more competitive

...by monoplane drivers

At Advanced, and particularly at international level, there is a perception
that the S1 is too small to present well to the judges - and looking
at domestic competition results, you could argue that Intermediate is
where the Pitts dominates - 8/10 in the top ten at the Nationals. At
Standard, there are more monoplanes floating around, but a number of
those are types which wouldn't make the transition to Intermediate.

[petes1s]

Zulu Alpha

"And how do you get on in aerobatics competitions then? "

i.e without a monoplane with a big engine C/S prop etc

Fair enough

But to be honest not every one feels the same about competition aerobatics and needs a plane capable of winning at the highest level.
Just because there's a monoplane out there with 20% more performance at 500% the cost doesn't change the fact that a Pitts S-1S goes like stink on not a lot of cash.

Also, said monoplane may cost 500% more, but will drop massively in value when the next must-have model appears on the scene and beats it in competition. Pitts values are pretty stable these days - maybe even increasing a bit as people discover the running/repair costs of exotic monoplanes

[stiknruda]

Wise words Pete.

Also, the single seater makes a great, country crossing "pocket-rocket".

I used mine extensively (day/VFR) to get to meetings in London, Bristol, Warwick, Sheffield, Brighton, etc.

150mph on 32lph, no closed motorways or traffic work on trunk roads.

[Major Major]

What are the downsides in a 2 seater Pitts then?

I'm way off owning/flying one being a student PPL, but I have a sneaking that one day a 2 seater Pitts might hit the spot in terms of enjoying myself in a sociable way...

[skyfiend]

Cost to buy, cost to run on CofA, limited range.

[stiknruda]

Not all 2 seaters are CoA and you v rarely see the 200hp model make £50k.
Good 260hp a/c can be bought for low fifties.
The endurance across the fleet is pretty similar - circa after 2 hrs you should be in the circuit!