Inverted roll with C-172????
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Inverted roll with C-172????
I have just heard that a guy made an inverted roll while flying solo with his 172 over Norwich area today. It may be just a "rumour", but I am curious...would that be possible with such a low speed that 172 is producing?
I know there should be minimal G-s ,but still...
Anyone?
I know there should be minimal G-s ,but still...
Anyone?
What on earth is an inverted roll? Any rolling manoeuvre that I was taught, be it a slow roll, a hestitation roll or the very simple barrel roll ALWAYS resulted in the aircraft and myself being inverted! There is no other kind of roll.
I would have thought that a Cessna 172 with the big engine would be perfectly capable of doing a barrel roll provided that the driver knew what he was about. After all, the perfect barrel roll is only a 1G manoeuvre.
I would have thought that a Cessna 172 with the big engine would be perfectly capable of doing a barrel roll provided that the driver knew what he was about. After all, the perfect barrel roll is only a 1G manoeuvre.
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Will wing over a treat.
It's rate of roll is good enough at 120kts....I can't see a problem, just remember to have the nose above the horizon when you go through the invered position, or you may pull the wings off pulling through / make the engine quit if you push the nose back before continuing.
Stupid really!!
It's rate of roll is good enough at 120kts....I can't see a problem, just remember to have the nose above the horizon when you go through the invered position, or you may pull the wings off pulling through / make the engine quit if you push the nose back before continuing.
Stupid really!!
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C172 can be rolled very nicely by a properly trained pilot, I have done it. I regularly loop and roll my C150 (and before the outcries begin, it is equipped with an accelerometer). Those without training for this should not attemp, for reasons given above.
I once asked a friend, while enroute with him in his Cessna 185 amphibian, if it could be rolled with all of that weight down there. He said that he did not know. Now we both do, it will roll very nicely! While teaching me one day, he demonstrated a perfect 8 point hesitation roll in his C182. The maps on the back seat did not move. He is a pilot with skill beyond mine.
Training, training, training!
Pilot DAR
I once asked a friend, while enroute with him in his Cessna 185 amphibian, if it could be rolled with all of that weight down there. He said that he did not know. Now we both do, it will roll very nicely! While teaching me one day, he demonstrated a perfect 8 point hesitation roll in his C182. The maps on the back seat did not move. He is a pilot with skill beyond mine.
Training, training, training!
Pilot DAR
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Are there any more feckwits waiting to come out of the woodwork to propose aerobatting unsuitable spamcans before the verbal savagery begins?...or shall we start now?
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An 8 point hesitation roll where the maps on the back seat didn't move? Don't know what he did, but it sure as hell wasn't a perfect 8 point roll.
Can you tell us all where and when you'll be flying in the future so we can avoid your airspace, please?
Pitts2112
Can you tell us all where and when you'll be flying in the future so we can avoid your airspace, please?
Pitts2112
Last edited by Pitts2112; 26th Sep 2007 at 23:02. Reason: Airspace no factor - Canada
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After all, the perfect barrel roll is only a 1G manoeuvre.
I'm sure you could roll a 172 (flying through the wake of an A320 nearly did it to us once).....but you'd be a bit stupid to do it deliberately....the 172 is NOT APPROVED for aerobatics. When it goes tits up and the wings fall off, remember this on the way down - just hope these people don't take anyone else with them.
In one of the aerobatic books I have got, it has a nice diagram of an aeroplane at 60 degrees nose down with 17 second (I think) written beside it. This is the time till impact at 120kts (I think) at 3000'. It also has a pic of one in the vertical with something like 12 seconds written beside it......
One thing I didn't know before starting to learn aeros is that in a roll (not barrel), in a typical aeroplane (without symetrical wing), the nose will drop approx 60 degrees, which is why you pull up 30 degrees before you start the roll......
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I was reading the Safety Matters section of Pilot magazine today and there is a story in there entitled:
"Baron broke up during aerobatic manoeuvre"
"Baron broke up during aerobatic manoeuvre"
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Any aircraft can be aerobatted. However ONLY those aircraft that are certified for aerobatics should be aerobatted. You are a fcukwit if you aerobat anything that is not approved for aero's. Yes that means I am calling those on this list that aerobat spamcans not approved for it. All this is, is an ego thing and shows the poorest lack of airmanship.
Also it usually seems to be those who are not trained in aerobatics that do this! As most aerobatic pilots I know would never aerobat anything but those approved (there will always be exceptions and perhaps I chose to hang around with those who know their own and the aircrafts limitations).
Pilot DAR I am glad you are in Canada as there is very little chance of me ever hiring a non-approved aircraft you have aerobatted but for the sake of others here, can you please list the rego numbers and types of non approved aircraft you have aerobatted so I can make sure that I NEVER fly in them. Whilst you are at it can you also list the numbers of those your mates have aerobatted as well.
Whilst you may think you haven't done any damage it is cumulative and some day some poor sod will be flying the aircraft, hit a bit of turbulant and then wonder why his wings clap above his head.
Pure idiocy.
As for a barrel roll being 1G that is also false. It is +ve G the whole way and you have to pull up into it and out of it, which is greater than 1G. Have a think about it, the aircraft is accelerating vertically and so there HAS TO BE more than 1G applied!!!!!!!! Basic friggen physics.
And I agree with Pitts 2112, it was a CRAP 8 point hesitation roll if the maps on the back seat never moved!
Also it usually seems to be those who are not trained in aerobatics that do this! As most aerobatic pilots I know would never aerobat anything but those approved (there will always be exceptions and perhaps I chose to hang around with those who know their own and the aircrafts limitations).
Pilot DAR I am glad you are in Canada as there is very little chance of me ever hiring a non-approved aircraft you have aerobatted but for the sake of others here, can you please list the rego numbers and types of non approved aircraft you have aerobatted so I can make sure that I NEVER fly in them. Whilst you are at it can you also list the numbers of those your mates have aerobatted as well.
Whilst you may think you haven't done any damage it is cumulative and some day some poor sod will be flying the aircraft, hit a bit of turbulant and then wonder why his wings clap above his head.
Pure idiocy.
As for a barrel roll being 1G that is also false. It is +ve G the whole way and you have to pull up into it and out of it, which is greater than 1G. Have a think about it, the aircraft is accelerating vertically and so there HAS TO BE more than 1G applied!!!!!!!! Basic friggen physics.
And I agree with Pitts 2112, it was a CRAP 8 point hesitation roll if the maps on the back seat never moved!
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I had one character boast about how he had a friend with a tiger moth who would let him take it for a fly, even though he was unlicensed, and how he performed outside loops in it. Im hoping to locate this tiger moth for the next moon shot....
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Almost any aircraft can be rolled (positive roll. Can't see a 172 being capable of an outside roll, pathetic roll rate). If it goes well there will be no harm done to aircraft or pax by a barrel roll. However if it is not done correctly then it might spin (not bad in a 172, but not good in other aircraft) or more likely the nose might come down too far, risking either exceeding VNE or overstressing to avoid doing so.
Don't do it people.
P.S. Cloudbasher is right. It always annoyed me when people described the barrel roll as a 1g manoeuvre.
Don't do it people.
P.S. Cloudbasher is right. It always annoyed me when people described the barrel roll as a 1g manoeuvre.
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When I was doing my IMC rating many years ago in my elderly C172, the instructor/examiner (who was a very well known and experienced individual) was demonstrating the effects of gyros toppling and to my horror proceeded to execute a perfect barrel roll. It was actually totally undramatic and the maps etc stayed put on the back seat.
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The C172 Manoeuvring Speed is about 104 kts, so if you apply full aileron above this number, you may/will overstress the wings in torsion.
That, as well as all the other reasons, is why it is a bad idea.
KZ8
That, as well as all the other reasons, is why it is a bad idea.
KZ8
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For those that haven't done any aeros, and don't know the difference between a barrel roll and an aileron roll:
A barrel roll is like a "corkscrew" in a roller coaster. Yes, there is some initial vertical accelleration ("g") when you pitch up, possibly up to 2 or 3g, but during the manoeuvre the "g" is pretty constant at around 1g. In any case it'll be somewhere between 1/2g and 2g. So it is a manoeuvre that falls well within the range of what any aircraft is capable of, IF (and that's a big IF) it is executed properly. For a barrel roll to be executed properly, you have to pitch up and roll in perfect harmony, while the speed is decaying, in order to be "on top" in both axis (pitch and roll) simultaneously. And keep the harmony going while the aircraft is accellerating again in the second half of the manoeuvre. It is far harder than executing the perfect chandelle. And if you do it improperly, well, number of things that can happen. You can fall out on top and end up in an inverted spin. Drop out the bottom and exceed Vne, or have to pull too many "g"s to recover. So although it looks simple (especially if you see one of those videos of people pouring coffee while doing it) but it is fraught with danger. In fact, at our club the barrel roll is considered an advanced aerobatic manoeuvre and is not taught in the basic aerobatics course.
An aileron roll is a manoeuvre with, in principle, no vertical accelleration. You follow a horizontal flight path, roll the aircraft with the ailerons while using pitch and rudder opposite gravity to keep the flight path horizontal. So from the normal +1G you go to a sideways force (through full rudder) with 0G in the vertical (aircraft) axis at 90 deg, then to -1G at 180 deg, then again 0G and a sideways force at 270 deg. Two things important here: most aircraft cannot maintain their horizontal flightpath with the rudder while being on the side, so most rolls use a more or less ballistic flightpath instead of a straight horizontal one. How ballistic this needs to be depends on the roll rate but about 30 degrees up at the start of the manoeuvre is usually enough. And if you don't have an inverted fuel/oil system, you lose engine power halfway through. The good news is, however, that there is not a lot of vertical accelleration throughout the manoeuvre, so the speed stays more or less constant. But if you have loose items in the back, they will be all over the plane. In fact, without an inverted fuel system, the engine will stop, the speed will decay because of the drag, and all items in the back will float forward. Not funny.
A hesitation roll is an aileron roll where the aircraft is momentarily fixed in position, by stopping the roll, at 45 degree, 90 degree etc. angles (in case of an 8-point). So at 8 times during the roll, the aircraft seems to hesitate.
So, yes, any aircraft might be able to perform the perfect barrel roll without being overstressed, or even drinks being spilled all over the place. But it takes a very skilled pilot to do it properly. And an improperly executed barrel roll will leave you without options (or even without wings) in a very short time.
Don't do it people.
Get a proper aerobatics instructor and a proper plane. I can tell you from experience it's a lot of fun but the easiest-looking manoeuvres are usually the hardest to fly.
Oh, and 4g just means that the sweat runs off your face and back four times as fast.
A barrel roll is like a "corkscrew" in a roller coaster. Yes, there is some initial vertical accelleration ("g") when you pitch up, possibly up to 2 or 3g, but during the manoeuvre the "g" is pretty constant at around 1g. In any case it'll be somewhere between 1/2g and 2g. So it is a manoeuvre that falls well within the range of what any aircraft is capable of, IF (and that's a big IF) it is executed properly. For a barrel roll to be executed properly, you have to pitch up and roll in perfect harmony, while the speed is decaying, in order to be "on top" in both axis (pitch and roll) simultaneously. And keep the harmony going while the aircraft is accellerating again in the second half of the manoeuvre. It is far harder than executing the perfect chandelle. And if you do it improperly, well, number of things that can happen. You can fall out on top and end up in an inverted spin. Drop out the bottom and exceed Vne, or have to pull too many "g"s to recover. So although it looks simple (especially if you see one of those videos of people pouring coffee while doing it) but it is fraught with danger. In fact, at our club the barrel roll is considered an advanced aerobatic manoeuvre and is not taught in the basic aerobatics course.
An aileron roll is a manoeuvre with, in principle, no vertical accelleration. You follow a horizontal flight path, roll the aircraft with the ailerons while using pitch and rudder opposite gravity to keep the flight path horizontal. So from the normal +1G you go to a sideways force (through full rudder) with 0G in the vertical (aircraft) axis at 90 deg, then to -1G at 180 deg, then again 0G and a sideways force at 270 deg. Two things important here: most aircraft cannot maintain their horizontal flightpath with the rudder while being on the side, so most rolls use a more or less ballistic flightpath instead of a straight horizontal one. How ballistic this needs to be depends on the roll rate but about 30 degrees up at the start of the manoeuvre is usually enough. And if you don't have an inverted fuel/oil system, you lose engine power halfway through. The good news is, however, that there is not a lot of vertical accelleration throughout the manoeuvre, so the speed stays more or less constant. But if you have loose items in the back, they will be all over the plane. In fact, without an inverted fuel system, the engine will stop, the speed will decay because of the drag, and all items in the back will float forward. Not funny.
A hesitation roll is an aileron roll where the aircraft is momentarily fixed in position, by stopping the roll, at 45 degree, 90 degree etc. angles (in case of an 8-point). So at 8 times during the roll, the aircraft seems to hesitate.
So, yes, any aircraft might be able to perform the perfect barrel roll without being overstressed, or even drinks being spilled all over the place. But it takes a very skilled pilot to do it properly. And an improperly executed barrel roll will leave you without options (or even without wings) in a very short time.
Don't do it people.
Get a proper aerobatics instructor and a proper plane. I can tell you from experience it's a lot of fun but the easiest-looking manoeuvres are usually the hardest to fly.
Oh, and 4g just means that the sweat runs off your face and back four times as fast.
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What spoilsports! Pulling g in a tourer looks such fun! A bit of background reading here.
I'm glad that some sensible people have made themselves obvious here, by pointing out that it is wrong to brag about aerobatics in a non-aerobatic type of aircraft.
Even detailing supposed bragging methods of how it was done in a 172, 185 or similar type, is simply stupid. Surely you realise that it is encouraging someone else to try. And there's a fair chance that they won't be as super skilled as you are, and will f*ck it up.
If you don't kill yourself doing it, you will be responsible for the death of innocent people when you overstress the aircraft, and it breaks up on a later normal flight.
I'm simply astounded, and disgusted. Grow up people.
Even detailing supposed bragging methods of how it was done in a 172, 185 or similar type, is simply stupid. Surely you realise that it is encouraging someone else to try. And there's a fair chance that they won't be as super skilled as you are, and will f*ck it up.
If you don't kill yourself doing it, you will be responsible for the death of innocent people when you overstress the aircraft, and it breaks up on a later normal flight.
I'm simply astounded, and disgusted. Grow up people.
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Can you tell us all where and when you'll be flying in the future so we can avoid your airspace, please?
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Here's a video of a C172 doing a roll (about 1:00 in) ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxNgw8_y0nc ) . It shows that is it possible. Even so, I would not encourage aerobatics in a touring aircraft, and you will never find me doing anything more than a steep turn in the 172 I fly. That video of the P68c loing its wings after passing VNE is word enough against not doing aerobatic manouevers in a tourer for me...