How do civilan pilots view military pilots
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Us and them...
Normally viewed as a dot growing increasingly quickly in my windscreen.
Actually, it isn't like the title at all.
For 18 years, I had the pleasure of being associated with the most professional pilots in the world, those of the Royal Air Force. For the last 11 years, I have been in a civilian enviornment, but still fraternise occasionally with RAF types as well. This background has allowed me to see both sides from the inside, and therefore I feel I can pass some small comment.
The vast majority of mil pilots are highly trained experts, regulary practicing their trade, and able to operate in the dark and IMC, often while coping with various distractions. A large number of them also fly privately, often in their own aircraft. Most of these guys are aware that the GA community only fly infrequently, and therefore the standards of RT and general airmanship are lower than those who fly regularly for a living, be it civil or military.
However, most of our mil pilots, while occasionay frustrated by low houred, low confidence, elderly, etc GA pilots, support those in the wider, non-professional aviation community (especialy if the civvies stay away from the LFA's and MATZ's). It must be borne in mind that many of the fast jets are moving over 300 miles an hour FASTER than the Cessna's, Piper's and similar utilised by the GA community. That is five miles a minute faster. Or if you prefer, one mile every 12 seconds FASTER than you. And that is if you are already doing 120 kts or two miles a minute.
Here in our quiet backwater area of unrestricted airspace, we have an RAF training base 10 nautical away. The airspace can be busy, and occasionally, a visiting USAF fast jet punches through our zone unannounced at 100 ft and 350 kts. But, we also have C130's, Red Arrows and many others call up and are welcomed through, as well as the SAR training helo's practicing here. You see, around here our community fully support our troops around the world. Not the politicians, you understand. Just the troops. There is no anomosity or envy. Just fellow aviators recognising the abilities, skills and commitment of our professional military pilots.
As one of the previously mentioned low houred, low capability GA pilots, I consider our military pilots generally are still the best in the world and, especialy nowadays, are far more aware of aviation outside the confined military circles. Whether this is due to the increasing numbers looking towards a future out of military uniform, I cannot say.
camlobe
Actually, it isn't like the title at all.
For 18 years, I had the pleasure of being associated with the most professional pilots in the world, those of the Royal Air Force. For the last 11 years, I have been in a civilian enviornment, but still fraternise occasionally with RAF types as well. This background has allowed me to see both sides from the inside, and therefore I feel I can pass some small comment.
The vast majority of mil pilots are highly trained experts, regulary practicing their trade, and able to operate in the dark and IMC, often while coping with various distractions. A large number of them also fly privately, often in their own aircraft. Most of these guys are aware that the GA community only fly infrequently, and therefore the standards of RT and general airmanship are lower than those who fly regularly for a living, be it civil or military.
However, most of our mil pilots, while occasionay frustrated by low houred, low confidence, elderly, etc GA pilots, support those in the wider, non-professional aviation community (especialy if the civvies stay away from the LFA's and MATZ's). It must be borne in mind that many of the fast jets are moving over 300 miles an hour FASTER than the Cessna's, Piper's and similar utilised by the GA community. That is five miles a minute faster. Or if you prefer, one mile every 12 seconds FASTER than you. And that is if you are already doing 120 kts or two miles a minute.
Here in our quiet backwater area of unrestricted airspace, we have an RAF training base 10 nautical away. The airspace can be busy, and occasionally, a visiting USAF fast jet punches through our zone unannounced at 100 ft and 350 kts. But, we also have C130's, Red Arrows and many others call up and are welcomed through, as well as the SAR training helo's practicing here. You see, around here our community fully support our troops around the world. Not the politicians, you understand. Just the troops. There is no anomosity or envy. Just fellow aviators recognising the abilities, skills and commitment of our professional military pilots.
As one of the previously mentioned low houred, low capability GA pilots, I consider our military pilots generally are still the best in the world and, especialy nowadays, are far more aware of aviation outside the confined military circles. Whether this is due to the increasing numbers looking towards a future out of military uniform, I cannot say.
camlobe
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I started flying on Bulldogs with UAS, and as Beagle said, we did a lot of aerobatics. I think I had about 60 hours of aeros, spins, stalls, PFLs, formation flying etc before we even started some nav. This certainly gave a very good basis in general handling for when I went on to do PPL then CPL/IR.
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There is a fundemental difference here between military and GA pilots in that Military trainee pilots are young and filtered as educationally suitable for flight training. GA pilots are generally a lot more mature and take the decision themselves whether they are capable of flying.
I do however, have the perception that the military to some extent 'look down' on their GA colllegues. The actual flyers seem to be OK, it's the desk pilots that give you this impressionl
My own direct experience of the military has been on my visits to air bases for various training events. While the information offered is first class, I find myself very 'out of step' with the attitude, the rigid systems and a lifestyle which they seem to take very seriously - I am sure, they will defend this to the bitter end because I suppose that service life has to be regimented in order for the people in charge to have some control over their charges. But not the life for me
Funilly enough, as a pilot, I have found their Radio services very helpful and refreshing, almost as if the people are are not really 'service' at all
I do however, have the perception that the military to some extent 'look down' on their GA colllegues. The actual flyers seem to be OK, it's the desk pilots that give you this impressionl
My own direct experience of the military has been on my visits to air bases for various training events. While the information offered is first class, I find myself very 'out of step' with the attitude, the rigid systems and a lifestyle which they seem to take very seriously - I am sure, they will defend this to the bitter end because I suppose that service life has to be regimented in order for the people in charge to have some control over their charges. But not the life for me
Funilly enough, as a pilot, I have found their Radio services very helpful and refreshing, almost as if the people are are not really 'service' at all
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ill-informed
GA pilots also have to pay mortgages; they don't get housing provided even if it is sub-standard; they don't have Officers/sergeants/ airmans messes to provide their meals either.
The vast majority of Mil pilots are GA pilots aswell, when they're not away in "sunnier" climes".
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I think that the average PPL - if such a beast exists, is (and I generalise, again) pretty short of practice averaging a handful of hours a year, enough to satisfy the low currency requirements of the licence.
The FJ pilot has a job to do, so the actual aircraft handling is rather second nature - the trick being on target on time or winning the fight.
I was lucky enough to spend time on a FJ Sqn earlier this year, and the briefing of the sorties was where the hard work started. Operating the jet as a weapons platform, was the tricky part of the job - the actual stick/throttle/operator interface was the easy bit.
IMHO!
Stik
1.4 hrs on the Jaguar
The FJ pilot has a job to do, so the actual aircraft handling is rather second nature - the trick being on target on time or winning the fight.
I was lucky enough to spend time on a FJ Sqn earlier this year, and the briefing of the sorties was where the hard work started. Operating the jet as a weapons platform, was the tricky part of the job - the actual stick/throttle/operator interface was the easy bit.
IMHO!
Stik
1.4 hrs on the Jaguar
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They are very good at what they do. They are intensively trained to do that job and have little idea of anything else. They are trained to believe in themselves and their team - so they tend to be a touch arrogant. They live and work in a pretty closed environment so their ideas of the world seem to be somewhat 'filtered'.
When they interact with GA all that tends to come through - add to that the general incompetence that often seems to accompany the armed services and it can be quite amusing.
We had a liason visit from the local top brass after over a years worth of complaining about them busting through our circuit. As they were leaving - after promising it would never happen again - a flight of Hawks (4 aircraft) flew up the runway at about 300 feet. If seems as they get older they learn how to be embarassed!
When they interact with GA all that tends to come through - add to that the general incompetence that often seems to accompany the armed services and it can be quite amusing.
We had a liason visit from the local top brass after over a years worth of complaining about them busting through our circuit. As they were leaving - after promising it would never happen again - a flight of Hawks (4 aircraft) flew up the runway at about 300 feet. If seems as they get older they learn how to be embarassed!
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In my experience my view of military pilots varies according which of the forces they came from and the types they flew. I generally had bad experiences being a student to ex RAF types, excellent experiences of ex AAC types and hillarious experiences with ex Navy types.
All are highly professional. But that is not to say civillian pilots are less professional - the best pilot I know is civillian.
But more importantly is how was the ease of which a military person becomes de militarised.
At the end of the day they were all trained to do a job and live life a certain way. Generally civilians find this certain way peculiar. Some military types cling deparately to their old ways, some welcome civvy street with open arms.
So the question is more like how do I view my fellow aviators? Answer - differently.
All are highly professional. But that is not to say civillian pilots are less professional - the best pilot I know is civillian.
But more importantly is how was the ease of which a military person becomes de militarised.
At the end of the day they were all trained to do a job and live life a certain way. Generally civilians find this certain way peculiar. Some military types cling deparately to their old ways, some welcome civvy street with open arms.
So the question is more like how do I view my fellow aviators? Answer - differently.
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Been in both places and for what it's worth, here is my view. From the airline point of view, 15 years ago I would have said that the tosser/ace ratio was the same in airlines and the service, but nowadays, a lot of airline pilots just have not had the sheer handling training and experience of a service pilot, nor have they got the command experience or had the chance to scare themseves fartless. I also know a lot of private pilots with quite a few hours, a lot of command time and extras like aero comps, that could hold their own against most service pilots, so I would be of the opinion that the raw material is not much different service/civilian, but the RAF training counts for a lot. Mind, I have been told by several Aussie pilots that they are the best in the world.
Life's too short for ironing
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On this side of the Atlantic, I find it varies considerably depending upon the individual. Some wear their military service on their sleeve, their car, their baseball cap, their t-shirts, their flightsuit, their...you name it, its on there.
Others, you wouldn't know unless they told you. I have the great pleasure of flying fairly regularily with a former T-38 instructor pilot, now airline pilot. He's great company and very rarely mentions what he did previously. His favourite fun is to scrounge as many flights in li'l ol' vintage aircraft as he can, and owns a couple himself.
Others, you wouldn't know unless they told you. I have the great pleasure of flying fairly regularily with a former T-38 instructor pilot, now airline pilot. He's great company and very rarely mentions what he did previously. His favourite fun is to scrounge as many flights in li'l ol' vintage aircraft as he can, and owns a couple himself.
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Give me a couple of years and I'll tell you hopefully. Till then i respect them immensley and wish I could have a go. Hu cares if they think they are better than us its cause they r the fact they got there means they are good.
David
David
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Gasax
They are very good at what they do. They are intensively trained to do that job and have little idea of anything else. They are trained to believe in themselves and their team - so they tend to be a touch arrogant. They live and work in a pretty closed environment so their ideas of the world seem to be somewhat 'filtered'.
When they interact with GA all that tends to come through - add to that the general incompetence that often seems to accompany the armed services and it can be quite amusing.
We had a liason visit from the local top brass after over a years worth of complaining about them busting through our circuit. As they were leaving - after promising it would never happen again - a flight of Hawks (4 aircraft) flew up the runway at about 300 feet. If seems as they get older they learn how to be embarassed!
Generally I believe that both parties understand that the other has different requirments; sharing the airspace taking into account each others needs.
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gasax
We must have read different posts then mate! He pointed out that all pilots are human, and as such are eminently capable of making mistakes and busting busting zones/levels/low flying avoids, and tempered your somewhat prejudiced comments, hardly a display of gross arrogance!
The comment about FJ mates flying GA and vice versa is also true - in order to become a qualified FJ pilot he/she will have at some point been trained to fly a light aeroplane to a very high standard, and certainly been examined to a standard of handling skill and airmanship well above that expected in a PPL skills test. A GA pilot, on the other hand, has not had to prove his ability to operate a fast-jet at 420knots and 250ft to get where he is. And rightly so.
I'm not trying to point-score or wave my willy about, just point out that people who do something as a full time job would generally be expected to be better at it than someone doing it as a hobby. I find watching a professional doing their job is generally a very interesting experience, whether that be a professional aviator, car mechanic, supermarket shelf-stacker, or whatever - it's always interesting to see the product of training and eperience. I wish to take nothing away from GA - as far as I'm concerned the more people enjoying aviation the better. I see no reason to be as confrontational as you seem to be.
Out of interest - which strip do you operate from? Feel free to reply by PM if you want.
The comment about FJ mates flying GA and vice versa is also true - in order to become a qualified FJ pilot he/she will have at some point been trained to fly a light aeroplane to a very high standard, and certainly been examined to a standard of handling skill and airmanship well above that expected in a PPL skills test. A GA pilot, on the other hand, has not had to prove his ability to operate a fast-jet at 420knots and 250ft to get where he is. And rightly so.
I'm not trying to point-score or wave my willy about, just point out that people who do something as a full time job would generally be expected to be better at it than someone doing it as a hobby. I find watching a professional doing their job is generally a very interesting experience, whether that be a professional aviator, car mechanic, supermarket shelf-stacker, or whatever - it's always interesting to see the product of training and eperience. I wish to take nothing away from GA - as far as I'm concerned the more people enjoying aviation the better. I see no reason to be as confrontational as you seem to be.
Out of interest - which strip do you operate from? Feel free to reply by PM if you want.
Fly Conventional Gear
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add to that the general incompetence that often seems to accompany the armed services and it can be quite amusing
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I disagree that all FJ pilots are GA pilots. Yes, all of them will have learned on Bulldog/Tutor/Chippy. But they did so under very regimented circumstances, with the support of a full ground crew.
Rather different from arriving at the club/farm strip early one summer morning, pulling the plane out of the hangar as the sun rises, pre-flighting, refuelling, pumping up a slightly flat tyre, clearing the bird's nest from the air intake, polishing the bugs off the windscreen, making a difficult call as to whether to take the downwind, downhill or the upwind, uphill takeoff; walking the strip to check for unexpected problems; deciding on a go/no-go point on the runway, &c &c.
Different skills; equally difficult; equally valid. Of course, the FJ mates put their lives on the line.
Tim
Rather different from arriving at the club/farm strip early one summer morning, pulling the plane out of the hangar as the sun rises, pre-flighting, refuelling, pumping up a slightly flat tyre, clearing the bird's nest from the air intake, polishing the bugs off the windscreen, making a difficult call as to whether to take the downwind, downhill or the upwind, uphill takeoff; walking the strip to check for unexpected problems; deciding on a go/no-go point on the runway, &c &c.
Different skills; equally difficult; equally valid. Of course, the FJ mates put their lives on the line.
Tim
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ContactTower, next time you see your old CCF commander tell him to shove his career advice up his arse. His was a breathtakingly ignorant statement and I suggest he's maybe spent too much time watching Top Gun and not enough actually mixing with real military pilots. This arrogant, 'elite', attitude is seen far more often in weekend warrior, space cadet types, who throw on the RAF uniform and the 'Iceman' persona once a week than in real mil pilots who are generally pretty sound blokes, confident, competent and mostly quite down-to-earth. There are always exceptions but very few fit the stereotypes.
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Tim,
I definately see your point, and indeed we could cite many more examples of operational GA specifics with which most FJ chaps would be unfamiliar. However, a FJ pilot will definately possess the poling skills required to throw a light aeroplane around the sky (once he's overcome the probable ill-ease he feels at the rate the outside world is passing by...), and I suggest will also have the mindset and airmanship to recognise the need for many of the things you talk about. For example, the requirement for a comphensive pre-take off emergencies brief, tailored for the circumstances of the day, will at the very least make him think through some kind of go/no-go point if so required.
While he may not appreciate having to refuel his own aeroplane and clean the bugs away, it is hardly beyond the wit of man! A completely different form of flying, yes, but not one he'd necessarily be unable to cope with. Incidentally, when did you last walk the 'strip' at your normal haunt?
KP
I definately see your point, and indeed we could cite many more examples of operational GA specifics with which most FJ chaps would be unfamiliar. However, a FJ pilot will definately possess the poling skills required to throw a light aeroplane around the sky (once he's overcome the probable ill-ease he feels at the rate the outside world is passing by...), and I suggest will also have the mindset and airmanship to recognise the need for many of the things you talk about. For example, the requirement for a comphensive pre-take off emergencies brief, tailored for the circumstances of the day, will at the very least make him think through some kind of go/no-go point if so required.
While he may not appreciate having to refuel his own aeroplane and clean the bugs away, it is hardly beyond the wit of man! A completely different form of flying, yes, but not one he'd necessarily be unable to cope with. Incidentally, when did you last walk the 'strip' at your normal haunt?
KP
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tmmorris says
Interesting Profile. 
Your assertion might impress some of your CCF schoolboys but, if any of them know anything about FJ flying, they'll be stifling their sniggers whilst nodding respectfully.
I'm sorry if that seems harsh but, to anyone who actually knows anything about aviation, your claim displays a very over-inflated idea of the skills required to be a PPL and an ignorance of the exceptionally high standards required to qualify as, and then operate as, a military pilot. You're deluding yourself if you really believe the standard required to obtain a PPL is remotely comparable to the skills required even to successfully get through the rigorous selection/training/chopping process to earn military Wings.
I've trained under Mil and civvy regimes; originally UAS (Chippy), then about eight years later did a PPL (fixed-wing) course and, much later, my PPL(H). The two are very different; one is far more demanding than the other.
The Mil training process was easier in some respects: The QFIs had been selected for CFS because of their skills, and worked to the CFS tried and tested method (second to none IMHO) and, within reason, there were no budget constraints so each stage was learnt thoroughly before moving to the next. On the other hand, the standards required by the RAF were much higher than for a PPL. Even if the QFI was to be generous in his assessment, weaknesses would be quickly flushed out in one of the regular check rides with the CFI. 'Good enough' simply didn't exist.
And that was at the lowest level. Squadron friends who went into the RAF found Cranwell, not surprisingly, far more demanding. Some, who'd seemed very promising at UAS level, were chopped; others, who'd lived and breathed to be FJ pilots, earned their Wings but didn't make it to fast jets. The PPL courses were a doddle in comparison; helicopters more demanding than fixed wing, but not excessively so.
To a greater or lesser extent, we are all proud of obtaining our PPL, but the reality is that many (most?) people competent at handling a car are capable of obtaining a PPL (fixed-wing). In contrast, most PPLs wouldn't be capable of qualifying as FJ pilots regardless of how much training they were given.
Do you really believe such "difficult calls" 
made at leisure are "equally difficult; equally valid" compared with critical decisions FJ pilots have to make in an instant when operational flying at high speed and/or in hostile conditions?
I've referred to FJ pilots because you made the comparison. They are arguably the cream of the crop, but it would be a big mistake to under-estimate the skills required of other mil pilots.
How do the so-called 'difficult' calls to which you refer compare with the decisions which (for example) C130 pilots have to make when operating into and out of short strips in demanding and/or hostile conditions?
Do you really believe such decisions are "equally difficult; equally valid" compared with the decisions we make?
Do you really believe that the flying SAR pilots do, and the decisions they have to make, are "equally difficult; equally valid" compared with a PPL?
I've referred to decision-making because you did, but the ability to make a (correct) split second decision is only the first stage; the pilot then needs the skill to carry out his decision successfully.
Asserting that we PPLs simply have "different skills" which are "equally difficult" compared with military pilots may work with easily impressed CCF cadets, and may even work in some adult company, but I suggest you choose your audience carefully.
Over the past 30+ years, I've been fortunate to fly extensively with professional pilots (Mil and Civvy). I've also flown with some very experienced and competent PPLs but, generally, there is a significant gulf between professionals and us which some PPLs fail to appreciate: We fly aircraft; professionals operate them.
Professionals fly aircraft with the effortless ease with which most of us drive cars; professionals not only fly the aircraft but, at the same time, use them for operational purposes, often in extremely challenging conditions and under pressure.
With respect, to suggest that recreational flying requires "equally difficult" skills is absurd.
sternone
I've always thought it a mistake to judge people by their earnings/wealth.
Give me the company of Mil pilots any day rather than the types one sometimes encounters in the GA world who've made a lot of money (often in business) and seem to think their wealth gives them some sort of status.
FL
(FJ pilots and GA pilots) "Different skills; equally difficult; equally valid."
Your assertion might impress some of your CCF schoolboys but, if any of them know anything about FJ flying, they'll be stifling their sniggers whilst nodding respectfully.
I'm sorry if that seems harsh but, to anyone who actually knows anything about aviation, your claim displays a very over-inflated idea of the skills required to be a PPL and an ignorance of the exceptionally high standards required to qualify as, and then operate as, a military pilot. You're deluding yourself if you really believe the standard required to obtain a PPL is remotely comparable to the skills required even to successfully get through the rigorous selection/training/chopping process to earn military Wings.
Yes, all of them will have learned on Bulldog/Tutor/Chippy. But they did so under very regimented circumstances, with the support of a full ground crew.
The Mil training process was easier in some respects: The QFIs had been selected for CFS because of their skills, and worked to the CFS tried and tested method (second to none IMHO) and, within reason, there were no budget constraints so each stage was learnt thoroughly before moving to the next. On the other hand, the standards required by the RAF were much higher than for a PPL. Even if the QFI was to be generous in his assessment, weaknesses would be quickly flushed out in one of the regular check rides with the CFI. 'Good enough' simply didn't exist.
And that was at the lowest level. Squadron friends who went into the RAF found Cranwell, not surprisingly, far more demanding. Some, who'd seemed very promising at UAS level, were chopped; others, who'd lived and breathed to be FJ pilots, earned their Wings but didn't make it to fast jets. The PPL courses were a doddle in comparison; helicopters more demanding than fixed wing, but not excessively so.
To a greater or lesser extent, we are all proud of obtaining our PPL, but the reality is that many (most?) people competent at handling a car are capable of obtaining a PPL (fixed-wing). In contrast, most PPLs wouldn't be capable of qualifying as FJ pilots regardless of how much training they were given.
"making a difficult call as to whether to take the downwind, downhill or the upwind, uphill takeoff; walking the strip to check for unexpected problems; deciding on a go/no-go point on the runway, &c &c."
made at leisure are "equally difficult; equally valid" compared with critical decisions FJ pilots have to make in an instant when operational flying at high speed and/or in hostile conditions?I've referred to FJ pilots because you made the comparison. They are arguably the cream of the crop, but it would be a big mistake to under-estimate the skills required of other mil pilots.
How do the so-called 'difficult' calls to which you refer compare with the decisions which (for example) C130 pilots have to make when operating into and out of short strips in demanding and/or hostile conditions?
Do you really believe such decisions are "equally difficult; equally valid" compared with the decisions we make?
Do you really believe that the flying SAR pilots do, and the decisions they have to make, are "equally difficult; equally valid" compared with a PPL?
I've referred to decision-making because you did, but the ability to make a (correct) split second decision is only the first stage; the pilot then needs the skill to carry out his decision successfully.
Asserting that we PPLs simply have "different skills" which are "equally difficult" compared with military pilots may work with easily impressed CCF cadets, and may even work in some adult company, but I suggest you choose your audience carefully.
Over the past 30+ years, I've been fortunate to fly extensively with professional pilots (Mil and Civvy). I've also flown with some very experienced and competent PPLs but, generally, there is a significant gulf between professionals and us which some PPLs fail to appreciate: We fly aircraft; professionals operate them.
Professionals fly aircraft with the effortless ease with which most of us drive cars; professionals not only fly the aircraft but, at the same time, use them for operational purposes, often in extremely challenging conditions and under pressure.
With respect, to suggest that recreational flying requires "equally difficult" skills is absurd.
sternone
Pilot's who look down on the GA community but they forget that GA pilot's are able to acutally PAY for their training ?
Give me the company of Mil pilots any day rather than the types one sometimes encounters in the GA world who've made a lot of money (often in business) and seem to think their wealth gives them some sort of status.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 4th Sep 2007 at 17:04.