How about taking passengers along as a PPL novice? Opinions please!
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How about taking passengers along as a PPL novice? Opinions please!
Folks, I'd be thankful for some opinions on this:
I am going to do a (FAA-)PPL in the US this summer. After having received the licence I want to do some more flying over there. Two relatives will probably come over at that time to give me a visit. Now, as I cannot yet really judge about what flying will be like after just having completed the PPL course, please give me some opinions on this: My relatives and I want to do some touring through the Mid-Western States and are considering the alternatives car or plane (and I have to start planning this). Do you guys think it is reasonably possible to take passengers along while having no more experience than just the PPL course, or is that irresponsible? By the way: I like these relatives (no mother-in-law ;-)).
Thanks for your thoughts....
Simon
I am going to do a (FAA-)PPL in the US this summer. After having received the licence I want to do some more flying over there. Two relatives will probably come over at that time to give me a visit. Now, as I cannot yet really judge about what flying will be like after just having completed the PPL course, please give me some opinions on this: My relatives and I want to do some touring through the Mid-Western States and are considering the alternatives car or plane (and I have to start planning this). Do you guys think it is reasonably possible to take passengers along while having no more experience than just the PPL course, or is that irresponsible? By the way: I like these relatives (no mother-in-law ;-)).
Thanks for your thoughts....
Simon
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Not irresponsible at all, in fact you show good judgement in asking the question, which demonstrates a degree of safety which is to be encouraged.
It all depends on how you feel about it, and you will not know until after you do it. So if you have to plan it now I would plan to do the long distances by car but stop off at various places and get checked out and rent a plane and do some local sightseeing. Every small town has an airfield, and a lot of them will have planes to rent. To be honest, flying long distances in the mid west is boring, but there are superb places to see from the air, and these can be done locally.
If you want to do it in the mid west then you should learn there as there are some nasty mountains in that area which might catch you out if your main experience is from flat places like florida.
You can do the touring next time. However that is not the correct answer, just my opinion. I don't know what you are like so have to guess.
Search on this forum for great advice on how to plan a trip in the US.
It all depends on how you feel about it, and you will not know until after you do it. So if you have to plan it now I would plan to do the long distances by car but stop off at various places and get checked out and rent a plane and do some local sightseeing. Every small town has an airfield, and a lot of them will have planes to rent. To be honest, flying long distances in the mid west is boring, but there are superb places to see from the air, and these can be done locally.
If you want to do it in the mid west then you should learn there as there are some nasty mountains in that area which might catch you out if your main experience is from flat places like florida.
You can do the touring next time. However that is not the correct answer, just my opinion. I don't know what you are like so have to guess.
Search on this forum for great advice on how to plan a trip in the US.
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The problem you will face is without having the license in your hand/wallet/pocket you will no tbe able to fly passengers, you will only be able to fly with student privelages.
If and when you pass you will not be issued your license on the spot, it will take some time (possibly over a month) for your shiny new license to arrive.
If and when you pass you will not be issued your license on the spot, it will take some time (possibly over a month) for your shiny new license to arrive.
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Actually, you do get a license on the spot, issued by the FAA examiner, but it's just a temporary license valid for 120 days. The final license will arrive later (I am waiting since longer than a month). The temporary one is treated as a full license, so you are allowed to take passengers, rent a plane and so on.
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The Skills Test examiners critera for pass or fail, at the end of the day, is one simple question: "Do I want my relatives to fly as passenger with this candidate?" Sure, based on that there are a few performance criteria you have to meet, but if the examiner feels unsafe, you're not going to get the ticket no matter how good your 180 on instruments was.
So, if you get the ticket, theoretically, you should be able to fly with passengers, no problem. Although most of us do one or more solo flights after getting the ticket anyway.
As far as using the plane for transport: without an IR (or very, very good and predictable weather) a plane is a toy, not a means of transport. So if you base your vacation around an itinerary where you have to be at suchandsuch place at suchandsuch time, and back at suchandsuch time, plan your trip by road and, as said, get checked out and rent a plane locally. If however, your passengers enjoy the adventure of VFR flying and are willing to throw an itinerary out the window because of the weather or other circumstances then go by plane.
If you go touring, talk things over with an instructor or other experienced pilot from the place you're renting from. Discuss the planned route, but also discuss very practical issues like tie-ing down an aircraft for the night (do you lock the aircraft or not?), how to obtain fuel/oil away from base, how to obtain weather, notams etc. en-route, that sort of thing. During your PPL those are the things that you're likely not have come into contact with.
And in any case, build your experience slowly. Initially, restrict your flying to two hours planned flight time, with enough fuel for four hours, and a maximum of four hours flying per day. Plan for easy navigation, don't do serious night flying even if you have the NQ. Don't cross mountain ranges if you don't have specific mountain flying experience or some experience with high altitude flying. Don't fly in marginal weather. Avoid, if possible, areas with no forced landing sites or alternates. Limit overwater flying. That sort of thing.
So, if you get the ticket, theoretically, you should be able to fly with passengers, no problem. Although most of us do one or more solo flights after getting the ticket anyway.
As far as using the plane for transport: without an IR (or very, very good and predictable weather) a plane is a toy, not a means of transport. So if you base your vacation around an itinerary where you have to be at suchandsuch place at suchandsuch time, and back at suchandsuch time, plan your trip by road and, as said, get checked out and rent a plane locally. If however, your passengers enjoy the adventure of VFR flying and are willing to throw an itinerary out the window because of the weather or other circumstances then go by plane.
If you go touring, talk things over with an instructor or other experienced pilot from the place you're renting from. Discuss the planned route, but also discuss very practical issues like tie-ing down an aircraft for the night (do you lock the aircraft or not?), how to obtain fuel/oil away from base, how to obtain weather, notams etc. en-route, that sort of thing. During your PPL those are the things that you're likely not have come into contact with.
And in any case, build your experience slowly. Initially, restrict your flying to two hours planned flight time, with enough fuel for four hours, and a maximum of four hours flying per day. Plan for easy navigation, don't do serious night flying even if you have the NQ. Don't cross mountain ranges if you don't have specific mountain flying experience or some experience with high altitude flying. Don't fly in marginal weather. Avoid, if possible, areas with no forced landing sites or alternates. Limit overwater flying. That sort of thing.
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Ah yes the A5 piece of paper valid for 120 days, forgot about that. I do remember it took over 120 days for my FAA license to arrive in the letter box.
Backpacker gives wise advice about mountain flying and planning for long legs.
Backpacker gives wise advice about mountain flying and planning for long legs.
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And don't forget weight and balance!
As a PPL student, you'll learn about it and have to calculate it on the skills test, but it's not usually uppermost in your mind during training because it's just you and the instructor (or just you) and you just asume that you are within limits. After all, the instructor wouldn't go up if there was a problem, would he?
Doing w & b calculations for real is vital if there is any chance that you will be at or near the limits. Get it wrong and you will regret it!
Since you say "relatives" in the plural, I'd suggest you train on a 4 seater and try to hire the same type once you have your PPL. Otherwise, if you learn on a 2 seater (e.g. Cessna 152) it might take a few extra hours to familiarise yourself with a 4 seater and satisfy the owners that you are competent to fly it.
And since most 4 seat light singles can't be flown with 4 adults plus luggage plus full fuel (and even 3 can be pushing it, especially if your airfield is hot and high) you need to consider how much you and your relatives weigh and how much luggage they and you want to carry.
Planning roughly what this weight would give you in terms of maximum permissible fuel (and whether you would be within balance limits) for the aircraft type you want to hire might be good to know up front. But it could only be rough and ready it this stage. Plus, if you haven't yet started on the course, you'll need help doing the calculations, unless some kind soul has put them on a spreadsheet.
I seem to recall that there was one floating about for PA 28s a couple of years back.
As a PPL student, you'll learn about it and have to calculate it on the skills test, but it's not usually uppermost in your mind during training because it's just you and the instructor (or just you) and you just asume that you are within limits. After all, the instructor wouldn't go up if there was a problem, would he?
Doing w & b calculations for real is vital if there is any chance that you will be at or near the limits. Get it wrong and you will regret it!
Since you say "relatives" in the plural, I'd suggest you train on a 4 seater and try to hire the same type once you have your PPL. Otherwise, if you learn on a 2 seater (e.g. Cessna 152) it might take a few extra hours to familiarise yourself with a 4 seater and satisfy the owners that you are competent to fly it.
And since most 4 seat light singles can't be flown with 4 adults plus luggage plus full fuel (and even 3 can be pushing it, especially if your airfield is hot and high) you need to consider how much you and your relatives weigh and how much luggage they and you want to carry.
Planning roughly what this weight would give you in terms of maximum permissible fuel (and whether you would be within balance limits) for the aircraft type you want to hire might be good to know up front. But it could only be rough and ready it this stage. Plus, if you haven't yet started on the course, you'll need help doing the calculations, unless some kind soul has put them on a spreadsheet.
I seem to recall that there was one floating about for PA 28s a couple of years back.
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Probably the biggest issue you will face is weather. Flying in that area is fairly easy, even for a newly qualified PPL. However touring to the Northwest of Florida is a different proposition. When you are training you are flying locally so you step outside, look at the sky, check the weather online or with flight service. If you dont like it you don't go and thats that.
The pressure of going on a touring trip with friends that arrived from Germany is a different situation.
I would say enjoy your flight training, when you get your piece of paper take them on a shorter more managable trip like down the beaches to Key West to celebrate your great achievement. Then go off and enjoy a great road trip together.
Just my opinion !
For example, take a look at the weather in the Orlando area for the next 7 days...
The pressure of going on a touring trip with friends that arrived from Germany is a different situation.
I would say enjoy your flight training, when you get your piece of paper take them on a shorter more managable trip like down the beaches to Key West to celebrate your great achievement. Then go off and enjoy a great road trip together.
Just my opinion !
For example, take a look at the weather in the Orlando area for the next 7 days...
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Alexa is right. I have done more M&B + take off/landing distance calculations *after* my skills test than before. And I have less than 100 hours total, including the PPL course...
In general, unless you go for something like a Cessna 182 or Piper Archer, most four-seaters are indeed 3-seaters. Ask your relatives to shed some weight while they can, ask them to pack light (10 kg baggage limit all round) and only then expect to be able to legally take off with full fuel.
The following data is for a typical PA-28-161 Warrior:
Empty weight 1550 lbs, MTOW 2440 lbs. Full fuel is 48 USG/289 lbs. (Fuel to the markers is 34 USG/205 lbs.) So with full tanks you have about 600 lbs payload to play with. Three average male adult passengers is 549 lbs (according to the FAA), leaving 51 pounds (a little over 20 kg) for baggage. And do you believe the average male passenger is only 183 lbs/83 kg?
Typical 65% cruise consumption (about 100 kts IAS) of the PA-28-161 is between 8.8 (not leaned) and 7.5 (correctly leaned using the WOT method), so 48 USG gives you an endurance (including reserves) of a little over five hours. If you only fill to the markers (34 USG), you have a tad under four hours endurance, but about 85 additional lbs payload to play with.
Balance, I have found, is only a problem with 2 heavies in the front and nothing in the back. As soon as you have a back seat passenger, balance is fine. And I have never seen a situation (so far) where I have had a CoG that was too far aft. Then again, I have not flown each and every type you'll find on the average rental market, in each and every possible configuration, so check anyway.
As far as landing and take-off distance is concerned, remember that the POH figures assume a new, clean aircraft with a new engine and prop and a highly experienced test pilot with perfect flying technique. Neither of these five factors will be true in your situation so take them with a big grain of salt. Don't fly into a short strip, hot & high, at the end of a long leg, for instance. And if you know that the landing distance is going to be challenging, don't hesitate to throw away the approach (go around) if it doesn't look perfect.
In general, unless you go for something like a Cessna 182 or Piper Archer, most four-seaters are indeed 3-seaters. Ask your relatives to shed some weight while they can, ask them to pack light (10 kg baggage limit all round) and only then expect to be able to legally take off with full fuel.
The following data is for a typical PA-28-161 Warrior:
Empty weight 1550 lbs, MTOW 2440 lbs. Full fuel is 48 USG/289 lbs. (Fuel to the markers is 34 USG/205 lbs.) So with full tanks you have about 600 lbs payload to play with. Three average male adult passengers is 549 lbs (according to the FAA), leaving 51 pounds (a little over 20 kg) for baggage. And do you believe the average male passenger is only 183 lbs/83 kg?
Typical 65% cruise consumption (about 100 kts IAS) of the PA-28-161 is between 8.8 (not leaned) and 7.5 (correctly leaned using the WOT method), so 48 USG gives you an endurance (including reserves) of a little over five hours. If you only fill to the markers (34 USG), you have a tad under four hours endurance, but about 85 additional lbs payload to play with.
Balance, I have found, is only a problem with 2 heavies in the front and nothing in the back. As soon as you have a back seat passenger, balance is fine. And I have never seen a situation (so far) where I have had a CoG that was too far aft. Then again, I have not flown each and every type you'll find on the average rental market, in each and every possible configuration, so check anyway.
As far as landing and take-off distance is concerned, remember that the POH figures assume a new, clean aircraft with a new engine and prop and a highly experienced test pilot with perfect flying technique. Neither of these five factors will be true in your situation so take them with a big grain of salt. Don't fly into a short strip, hot & high, at the end of a long leg, for instance. And if you know that the landing distance is going to be challenging, don't hesitate to throw away the approach (go around) if it doesn't look perfect.
