PPL vs Microlight

[julian_storey]

Get yourself over to the States and bang the rest of your PPL out over there. I'll bet you could finish it in two weeks for not much more than $2000 ($2 to the £ at the moment!) so about £1000. You can rent a C172 WET for $79 an hour. (about £40!)

I've flown a flexwing microlight and it really is the most enourmous fun. I also fly bigger stuff though and there are advantages to being able to reliably fly somewhere (and home again!) in most weather and when it's dark!

Depends really on what kind of flying you want to do. Buzzing fields in a flexwing is great fun - BUT there is also something rather nice about taking friends to France for lunch and being able to come back after dark.

If you do decide to go to the States - it's a minefield. I got screwed over by a school out there when I first went to do my FAA commerical. They were thieving robbers who didn't even have a plane for me to do my flight test in! I found another though - which I would rate as being one of the nicest, most friendly, most honest flying schools on the face of the planet. Be careful - and if you do go, PM me first!

[C42]

i am just about to convert from NPPL m to NPPL sep as i have just ordered a TL Sting and a Titan T 51 Mustang. i started doing the JAR licence (only done 3 hours in a spam can) and done 3 of the exams. i then read on here that i can do the NPPL sep in 3+ hours. so i am taking the print out of the lasors to my flying school to discuss it with them. i passed my NPPL M in 8 days in exacly 25 hours (im sure the model flying helped) and i was able to do this because i bought my own plane and just paid the instructor. i passed 14 months ago and have done 180 hours since then! i have flown all over Europe and spent 3 days flying up and down the Austrian Alps.

now comes the crunch! if i convert to an NPPL sep i understand that i can not fly abroad? but i could on my NPPL m! or as my Sting is an ultralight on the continent, can i just bluff my way with my microlight licence when i get there also i was told that the NPPL sep will become a European licence soon anyway?

Dave

[tangovictor]

i am just about to convert from NPPL m to NPPL sep as i have just ordered a TL Sting and a Titan T 51 Mustang. i started doing the JAR licence (only done 3 hours in a spam can) and done 3 of the exams. i then read on here that i can do the NPPL sep in 3+ hours. so i am taking the print out of the lasors to my flying school to discuss it with them. i passed my NPPL M in 8 days in exacly 25 hours (im sure the model flying helped) and i was able to do this because i bought my own plane and just paid the instructor. i passed 14 months ago and have done 180 hours since then! i have flown all over Europe and spent 3 days flying up and down the Austrian Alps.

now comes the crunch! if i convert to an NPPL sep i understand that i can not fly abroad? but i could on my NPPL m! or as my Sting is an ultralight on the continent, can i just bluff my way with my microlight licence when i get there also i was told that the NPPL sep will become a European licence soon anyway?

Dave

Well done Dave, I considered doing the same thing, then settled on a 3 axis microlight, I believe its 5 further hours flight training, from nnpl m to nppl sep, plus you have to sit another " principals of flight exam " all your other exams need NOT be retaken.
Re Europe ; again your correct, microlights flown nppl m are ok, sep flown nppl sep, you are susposed to seek permission from each country prior to flight, whilst I love your bravado re bluffing ! watch out for your insurance, nuf said, I hope you enjoy your " Sting " great looking machine

[Fly Stimulator]

C42/Dave - You're right, the conversion process is very straightforward, but you are left with being unable to legally fly a light aircraft in Europe. That is at the discretion of the local authorities in the countries you plan to visit, so you could try approaching them and seeing if they will grant you permission.

[tangovictor]

Not true I'm afraid. I think you're getting that confused with adding a microlight rating to an existing NPPL SSEA licence in which case the SEP/JAR exams you'll already have passed 'trump' the microlight ones.

It doesn't work the other way round. When converting from an NPPL Microlight licence to the NPPL SSEA the microlight exams are not counted as equivalent to the JAR ones and so you will have to do all of the latter. If you already have a FRTOL you won't need to do that again.

When I considered, going from nppl m to nppl sep, I phoned the BMAA who gave me the phone No of a committe member who drafted the nppl licence
I spoke to her, and was told, if I were a current nppl m licence holder, & wished to pursue nppl sep, further flight training in the region of 5 hours + sitting Principals of Flight again, not the microlight version, is all thats required

[Mariner9]

As I understand it, (and I may well be out of date ) one of the "benefits" of the further training and exams to upgrade a licence from NPPL Microlight to the NPPL SSEA is that you can no longer fly to Europe

[Rod1]

“As I understand it, (and I may well be out of date ) one of the "benefits" of the further training and exams to upgrade a license from NPPL Microlight to the NPPL SSEA is that you can no longer fly to Europe ”

This is not true. The NPPL is only valid in the UK, but it does not actively state that you cannot fly in Europe, just that it does not give you this right. Exactly the same situation existed some years ago on the MPPL. Lots of pilots asked for permission from various European countries, and it was being given 99% of the time. Eventually a deal was struck and the MPPL was accepted in Europe despite not reaching the international standard.

There have been reports of several NPPL/A holders requesting permission to fly in Europe, and getting it. The New R/EPPL will be along in <2 years and will give you this as a right.

The PFA permit rules are the same, and the same repeated request for permission caused a more general approval to be agreed.

Rod1

[tangovictor]

FS > thats exactly what I have been saying !

[IO540]

I can give one piece of general advice to anybody starting in this game: Unless you are absolutely cash strapped, don't cripple your mission capability by getting a UK-only qualification. You will live to regret it. In the long run, this game is above all a paper chase. Getting the plane you want is "just a question of money" but getting the privileges you want, at the time of your life when you decide you need them, can be impossible to squeeze into one's life, so if you can get them go for it! Being able to just jump into something and fly to France is priceless, if not for any other reason than there is no way to do it other than private flight.

I also think that a given person will spend a similar amount of money reaching a specific level of flying confidence no matter how they go about it. At average UK PPL training prices this is around £6000-9000. Some can do it for less but these are rare cases, and some take much longer.

[tangovictor]

FS > I can only quote, what was told to me direct in person, from someone who sat and formulated the nppl
having taken & attained the nppl m, should I wish to then go for the nppl -sep
further flight training is required ( I was quoted approx 5hrs ) and then a flight test, and another principals of flight exam must be taken, not the microlight version,
If you still do not believe me, I suggest a telephone call to the BMAA who will then pass details to you, of the nppl licence expert, whom I spoke with

[Fly Stimulator]

The five hours figure is achievable, depending upon the individual of course. There are actually two separate flight tests - a navigation skills test (NST) and a general skills test (GST). There's no need for phone calls - it's all just a click away here.


On the larger and more interesting question of whether the UK-only NPPL SSEA is worth doing (for those who have the choice and aren't restricted by things like medical issues) I think that IO540 is right. The limitations can become frustrating very quickly. A simple illustration is that you will generally need an ICAO licence in order to hire aircraft in other countries and the NPPL SSEA won't do.

A Europe-wide recreational licence might change the balance, but on the other hand an achievable UK IR would change it back again. IO's basic point of not saddling yourself with unnecessary limitations that later might need to be undone is a very valid one and worth thinking about carefully before committing to any particular route.

[tangovictor]

im not going to repeat myself, as Im sure others are as bored of this as I am, all I can say is, I telephoned and spoke with an nppl licence expert, number available via the BMAA, I specifically asked this question, and was given the already stated answer, she did mention, that, people are unclear as to which further exams are needed, and assured me, that ONLY principals of flight need to be retaken, not the already taken microlight version
This all assumes your a current nppl m licence holder, going on for nppl-sep

[xrayalpha]

Hi all,

Yet again, the NPPL minefield rears its ugly head.

Here is the Microlight to SEP exam requirement - in writing - from the chief executive of the BMAA to all microlight instructors (which confirms that microlight exams are valid in place of JAR exams - IF you get a NPPL microlight licence first):

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Weighell
Sent: 20 November 2006 15:41
To: Roy Hart
Subject: NPPL

Roy,

You will remember that the NPLG Ltd now accept all the microlight exams except the Aircraft General and Flight Procedures towards the grant of a NPPL SSEA rating where the applicant is the holder of a NPPL Microlights. This is a change to the current Cross Credit document, revision 6, which is published on the NPPL website. Please send an email all the microlight instructors to this effect.

Thanks

Geoff

Yes, it is contrary to Lasors, but then lots of things are!

(There is also not a microlight "Aircraft General and Flight Procedures microlight exam!!!!)

I'm afraid I operate at the sharp end by running a microlight school and having to deal with this b@ll@x every week.

Perhaps, although I offer C42 microlight training, that was why I suggested just going straight for the light aircraft route.

For the hassle about adding a microlight instructor's rating to a JAR light aircraft licence, look at one of my earlier threads.

Very best wishes

[Fly Stimulator]

xrayalpha - that's interesting thanks. A good illustration of the levels of confusion that have surrounded various NPPL requirements since the start. Geoff Weighell's statement as to what the NPLG will accept directly contradicts that organisation's own currently-published documentation.

With the documentation saying one thing and people being told something else by the organisations concerned it would seem that anybody going down this route had perhaps best get a statement one way or the other signed in blood from NPLG and FCL at the CAA.

Or go for a JAR PPL.

[tangovictor]

now accept all the microlight exams except the Aircraft General and Flight Procedures towards the grant of a NPPL SSEA rating

F S > do I hear an apology

[Fly Stimulator]

tangovictor - I do indeed apologise for suggesting you had misunderstood what you were told.

[tunalic2]

Get it in writing

Get it in writing, Get it in writing, Get it in writing,


telephone conversations are all well and good esp if it means less exams, but always get it in writing.For yourself and for everyone that will (justifiably) pull out a lasors and point.

Had the same problem years ago with a FAA Heli PPL which everyone tried to tell me meant I could not fly G reg in UK. ( I could but the onus was on me to educate, so I did, as you will, as its in your best interest)

meantime congratulations looks like you have less exams to sit
T2

[BEagle]

Fly Stimulator, the information you are giving is as out of date as the link you provided. NPPL XCREV06 was amended many months ago; the current version is REV06.4.

See http://www.nppl.uk.com/documents/NPPLXCREV064.pdf for the current allowances for additional ratings.

REV07 will be released when the ongoing ANO amendment process reaches law. It will be a major revision.

Do remember that LASORS is only amended once per year, whereas the NPPL website is now updated as soon as any revised policy change has been approved by the CAA.

[Fly Stimulator]

Thanks for the confirmation BEagle - I've removed and/or edited earlier posts to avoid propagating out-of-date information.

Tangovictor - I owe you a beer!

[tangovictor]

Fs > no probs, what a minefield.