Badly judged FL, how to survive?

[vee-tail-1]

I fly a slippery aircraft which floats for ever if too fast over the hedge.
Have been practising PFLs and would like comments on this situation:
Engine fails with only one possible landing option (perhaps a small field in a built up area) I set up a glide circuit but misjudge the wind and arrive on final too fast and/or too high. How to get into that field and avoid the bricks & mortar around it? Do I dive and force the aeroplane to touch down at high speed? Or deliberately stall the aeroplane (very benign stall on this aircraft) and hope to flare before touch down. Yes I know, with more flying and more practice this situation might not arise.

[IO540]

One way to deliberately worsen one's glide performance is by doing S-turns. These are easy and you can do them in (probably) any aircraft type.

Another way is a sideslip, but you can't do that in some types.

If you have a CS prop, setting it to fully-fine will also worsen glide performance.

[gasax]

Obviously practice helps but...

Make sure you always trim the aircraft and let it fly itself in pitch - you are now not going to arrive with too much speed - so some of the problem goes away.

If you're too high hoepfully your aircraft will sideslip reasonably well - that removes height at some rate on many types. May make too much height go away.

Find yourself a big grass airfield and practice these things onto the ground.

If none of this works my preference is to arrive on the ground slowly, so forcing it on is a no no. Stalling it on in a sub-optimal place is probably better - but again it needs a bit of precision otherwise you're going to get hurt. If you cann't make the field normally then stallling at the right height is probably a bigger challenge....

[sir.pratt]

what's the aircraft? bonanza?

you need to read the side slipping thread.

[the dean]

neither. both will certainly hurt and may kill you.

you cannot force an aeroplane on to the ground. pushing will just increase the speed and you may hit the wall or ditch at the other end ( that is if you make it into the field at all ).

stalling it in may be fatal at the beginning of the runway.

you'll just have to practice it, and do'nt tell me the plane is fast and slippery and you can't get the speed under control. thats just an excuse for letting the aeroplane fly you.it is a basic requirement that you control the speed by whatever means at your disposal...

first rule of engine failure on a flight test...trim to the best glide speed...if you have not done that then you have no business moving on to the second...establish a glide at that speed and find a field, and if you have time try to find the fault and try a restart.

SO...i have to ask, if you have trimmed to the correct speed, then why should you arrive at any field at the wrong speed..

look at your technique again...maybe time to take a refresher ride with an instructor.

i have come across many techniques such as circling and many will swear by whichever they like.there is no perfect way but personally i like to keep it simple. find the wind and put yourself on a downwind or base so you can turn in when you like. circles make the approach more difficult to gauge and simply ( i think ) introduce another dimension...but whatever you like to do, practice, practice and practice..AND...keep the speed right all the way down.

good luck.

the dean.

[vee-tail-1]

Sideslipping not recommended on my aircraft, but timely S turns would certainly help. But just suppose the only option is a field surrounded by buildings. Is it possible to make a semi stalled steep approach and last minute flare.

[sternone]

Is it a diamond ?

[Fuji Abound]

I am not happy with a lot of the posts on this thread.

We need to know what type of aircraft it is.

There are things you can do in some close to the ground, but it others that may well kill you.

Moreover, the situation you paint is a dire one. IF there is only one "field" into which a landing would be remotely possible in your hypothetical scenerio and the alternatives are houses, then more dramatic solutions might be justified, but again the type of aircraft may be a factor.

[wombat13]

Forget the aircraft type, just tell us why you want to keep the type a secret. We will probably be able to work it from there.

The Wombat

[vee-tail-1]

Hmnn.. thanks for reminding me of the basics. Guess practice is the answer..only managed 6 hours this year. Amazing how rusty flying skills get if not used.

[BackPacker]

Sideslipping not recommended on my aircraft

And missing the only emergency landing field in the neigborhood in an engine-out scenario is?

I don't know what sort of airplane you fly, but as far as I know, the main reason for sideslipping not to be recommended (or forbidden outright) is typically that either the rudder and/or the fuselage, in a sideslip, blanks part of the elevator, so elevator authority is reduced. At low speed, possibly to the point of losing authority altogether. But if you sideslip at best glide speed or a little above that, in the given scenario, it might be your safest option.

In any case, if you need to lose height to make the field, remaining at "best glide" speed is NOT what you want. If you slow down to just a few knots above stall speed (in the buffet, but not into the full stall) or speed up to a higher speed, by definition your glide path will be steeper than at "best glide" speed. Although speeding up means that you need to lose that energy on final again. Granted - I would leave the aircraft trimmed at best glide speed, and force it onto another speed with the stick or yoke.

[vee-tail-1]

No secret it's a Robin ATL.

[Fuji Abound]

Ah, a Robin.

Coincidentally, I was just talking to my mechanic on the 'phone, literally half and hour ago.

I have never flown a Robin and we were discussing the characteristics of different aircraft. He was telling me that Robins are thought of as having benign handling - however he was convinced that was far from true. He reckoned they will and do drop a wing unpredictably and significantly. I dont know which type(s) he was specifically referring to.

Getting the "best" out of an aircraft close to the ground is in my opinion very type specific, some generalisation can (and have been made), but if you want a real good feel for what you can do with the aircraft close to the ground if you are unlucky enough to get yourself into a very tight spot (and I think that is what you are suggesting when the normal FL has gone badly wrong and you have run out of alternatives - or only had one to start with) listen to what those who have experience on tyoe have to say.

BP has a good point, but spinning in, in consequence of an unexpected wing drop at low level from which you have little hope of recovery, may jsut be worse than missing the field altogether but at least landing in a "controlled" manner.

I always recall the brain surgeon who ran out of fuel in his twin. He kept control of the aircraft and landed literally in some ones very very small back garden (having gone through the roof). He had very minor injuries. Lucky - well yes, but his luck was in part due to maintaining control.

[Slopey]

But just suppose the only option is a field surrounded by buildings.

Then you should probably be observing rule 5 and be able to glide clear to somewhere with less buildings

[RatherBeFlying]

Practise PFLs from downwind aiming to land on a chosen spot on the runway (not necessarily the numbers) at the right speed.

This will familiarise you with managing the energy the last thousand feet down and allow you to determine what works best in your a/c.

Gliders are even more slippery, but have spoilers. My first and so far last outlanding was 100 yards in from the wires with a 50 yard ground roll. Do not try going between trees to get in tighter as there's often a wire there

[Rod1]

Fuji,

Most UK Robins are DR400 wooden wonders with bent up wingtips. The handing is very safe and they side slip very well, this is specifically mentioned in the pilot operating notes. The ATL is a very different beast which I know nothing about.

The example given is so extreme that a side slip would still be worth considering.

Rod1

[dublinpilot]

Guess practice is the answer..only managed 6 hours this year.

I know that not everyone can afford to do lots of hours every year, but if you are only doing 6 hours per year, then you need to understand the limitations that that places on your skill and currency level.

Finding unorthodox solutions to get around the lack of currency is not such a good idea. If you can only do 6 hous per year, then either do all six with an instructor, or do the first 3 with an instructor to get you back up to speed, and shortly after (not months after) do the other 3 solo, now that you're up to speed.

dp

[DubTrub]

Originally Posted by the dean

trim to the best glide speed

Not always a good thing. If your best glide speed is say 60 and the headwind is 40, then you are in a situation where you have fewer fields ahead. In the same wind, if your glide speed is 40, then the only place you are going to is underneath you (unless you can turn around).

It requires some practice to determine optimum speeds to reach a chosen field with differing wind conditions.

[Fuji Abound]

Then you should probably be observing rule 5 and be able to glide clear to somewhere with less buildings

Yep, hopefully he knows that, but the question was hypothetical - unfortunately sh*£ happens (even if it shouldnt) so the question is valid.

Have you been over one of those huge forests in Europe that go on for ever with the odd green patch in the middle that might make a good landing? Shouldnt ne there in the first place - maybe not, but it happens.

The example given is so extreme that a side slip would still be worth considering.

Yes, it might well be, but not specific type advice can be dangerous, hence my comment about talking to those who have plenty of experience on type. Treat any other advice as an invitation to do something at lower level that might just have a worse outcome than missing the field and landing in the trees (or houses).

[DeeCee]

Is it possible to make a semi stalled steep approach and last minute flare.

What's a semi stalled steep approach?

I fly a Robin and they handle very well in a glide approach. If you are too high try proper s turns (not little ones), dive a little and turn away, turn back onto track whilst pulling back to regain best glide speed.

However, above all, maintain the recommended best glide and at least you will remain in full control of the aeroplane. It is not a good idea to experiment when you have an emergency.

A Robin is not especially slippery. Control the speed on approach, bleed it off over the hedge, round out, hold off and land and you will use up the minimum distance. A low speed collision at the end of the run is preferable to a stall on approach.