When am I P2 and when am I passenger?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Leeds
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When am I P2 and when am I passenger?
In terms of logging time, if I am sitting in the right hand seat, what determines if I am flying as P2, or merely a passenger? (I am a PPL). Thinking this through the other day it would make sense that I am P2 when either:
- I am competent and qualified to fly the aircraft
- I am under instruction with a qualified instructor
otherwise presumably I am not P2 but just a passenger?
I ask because I have recently flown in the right hand seat of a couple of aircraft with variable pitch propellers which I am not qualified to fly solo. In both cases I took the controls for a while (when up at a safe height) and assisted with navigation. Neither of these was an instructional flight ie the P1 was not a qualified instructor.
- I am competent and qualified to fly the aircraft
- I am under instruction with a qualified instructor
otherwise presumably I am not P2 but just a passenger?
I ask because I have recently flown in the right hand seat of a couple of aircraft with variable pitch propellers which I am not qualified to fly solo. In both cases I took the controls for a while (when up at a safe height) and assisted with navigation. Neither of these was an instructional flight ie the P1 was not a qualified instructor.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dunno ... what day is it?
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For any purposes for a UK licence you cannot log any of the time at all. The FAA have a different opinion, but the UK CAA only accept a single pilot in single-crew aircraft, unless it is operating under an AOC that allows multi-crew operations, a commercial flight.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Bradford
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What to log
BT?
If you log any P1 time at all, you have to agree beforehand with the other pilot how you'll split the time. If indeed the LH seat man (or club rules if it's one of theirs) will allow this. If you fly behind a VP or constant speed prop as P1 you have to have relevant differences training signed off in your log-book.
No P2 in little aeroplanes as said.
So it sounds as if you were "speaking ballast" and nothing more. Contrary to advice you have to log what you're entitled to, not what you think it may have been!
If you log any P1 time at all, you have to agree beforehand with the other pilot how you'll split the time. If indeed the LH seat man (or club rules if it's one of theirs) will allow this. If you fly behind a VP or constant speed prop as P1 you have to have relevant differences training signed off in your log-book.
No P2 in little aeroplanes as said.
So it sounds as if you were "speaking ballast" and nothing more. Contrary to advice you have to log what you're entitled to, not what you think it may have been!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Contrary to advice you have to log what you're entitled to, not what you think it may have been!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't believe how often this keeps coming up. It is quite simple - if you're flying the types of aircraft a PPL is likely to fly, there is no such thing as P2. You're either P1, or PUT if training with an instructor, or P1(S) if you're taking a flight exam with an examiner and pass - if you fail it's back to PUT.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North West, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which seat you're in is irrelevant. You can fly solo from the right seat if you want as P1.
As has been said above, you can only log P2 in a multi crew aircraft.
As has been said above, you can only log P2 in a multi crew aircraft.
Can anyone confirm this
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Assuming the plane is set up to be flown from the left seat, why on earth would you want to fly it from the right solo? In some planes certain controls are only available to the left hand seat. I imagine there are probably club or insurance rules to cover this anyway.
And if an instructor is taking a student up then the guy in the left seat isn't a PPL - I did my very first flight from the left seat and I certainly wasn't
And if an instructor is taking a student up then the guy in the left seat isn't a PPL - I did my very first flight from the left seat and I certainly wasn't
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: down-route
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You must fly the aircraft in accordance with the Flying Manual/Pilot's Operating Handbook.
Some FM/POHs state that the aircraft must be flown solo from the rear seat for CofG purposes eg, Piper Cub. However, I've never seen a FM/POH which states the aircraft must be flown solo from the left seat.
Group Rules or a Flying Club Order Book may require the left-hand seat to be occupied for take-off and landing. This makes things less complicated with the insurance company following an accident/incident.
Some FM/POHs state that the aircraft must be flown solo from the rear seat for CofG purposes eg, Piper Cub. However, I've never seen a FM/POH which states the aircraft must be flown solo from the left seat.
Group Rules or a Flying Club Order Book may require the left-hand seat to be occupied for take-off and landing. This makes things less complicated with the insurance company following an accident/incident.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EGBT
Age: 51
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Solo from the Right Hand Seat
Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the RAFs EFTS Tutors (Grob 114 I think?) configured for instruction and solo flight from the rh seat to simulate stick in rh and throttle in left. Easier to build the panel the other way around than put a second throttle in on the left? So surely it only matters that you have access to all of the primary and essential controls from where you sit - long time ago I seem to remember flying Pipers that had their fuel valves down on the lh side of the lh seat footwell that were a bugger to reach through to from the rh seat?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Assuming the plane is set up to be flown from the left seat, why on earth would you want to fly it from the right solo?
Perhaps the toe brakes are u/s on the left.
Would you still fly it that way?
I think you can only fly from the right hand seat if the left is occupied. The left hand seat person does not even have to be a PPL holder. If you are solo, I have been told that you have to sit in the left hand seat?????????????
I can confirm that, as a general rule, this is nonsense.
Perhaps the toe brakes are u/s on the left.
Would you still fly it that way?
I think you can only fly from the right hand seat if the left is occupied. The left hand seat person does not even have to be a PPL holder. If you are solo, I have been told that you have to sit in the left hand seat?????????????
I can confirm that, as a general rule, this is nonsense.
TightYorksherMan
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peak District
Age: 41
Posts: 1,570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If two PPLs hour building are wanting to log hours for hour building together then this is not possible to do at the same time.
However.....there is nothing to stop you from doing a crew change in mid air i.e you logging half the trip and your partner the other half!
However.....there is nothing to stop you from doing a crew change in mid air i.e you logging half the trip and your partner the other half!
jinkster,
I would be interested to know how you log that. E.g. How do you enter From/To and how do you indicate whether you did the landing or not. For some people that could be important in maintaining three landings in 90 days.
I used to do a lot of flying with another PPL and, although it meant I could fly further on the same budget, I did find I was doing less landings/£, but logging the same hours/£.
Now I do a lot more flying and it isn't an issue but I'm just interested.
I would be interested to know how you log that. E.g. How do you enter From/To and how do you indicate whether you did the landing or not. For some people that could be important in maintaining three landings in 90 days.
I used to do a lot of flying with another PPL and, although it meant I could fly further on the same budget, I did find I was doing less landings/£, but logging the same hours/£.
Now I do a lot more flying and it isn't an issue but I'm just interested.
TightYorksherMan
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peak District
Age: 41
Posts: 1,570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
logging of landings. does it really matter?
I fly big aeroplanes now as well as little ones but even if the captain does the take off and landing i still put it in my book as 1 take off and 1 landing.
I cant see how it makes a big deal of difference to be honest.
I fly big aeroplanes now as well as little ones but even if the captain does the take off and landing i still put it in my book as 1 take off and 1 landing.
I cant see how it makes a big deal of difference to be honest.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would be interested to know how you log that.
Art 35 of the ANO
35 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:
....
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;
....
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;
Mike
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the flying-from-right-hand-seat-rule. not sure what the law is in uk but the regs and insurance providers in australia state you can fly an aircraft solo from the right seat providing you have access to all controls and displays. As stated b4 most single pipers are hard to fly right seat due to fuel selector location.
the above doesnt count if the company's ops manual rules otherwise.
ps there might be other reasons for it, but ive seen solo pilots fly from right seat to practice gripping opposite controls for instructing and aerobatics.
the above doesnt count if the company's ops manual rules otherwise.
ps there might be other reasons for it, but ive seen solo pilots fly from right seat to practice gripping opposite controls for instructing and aerobatics.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take-offs and landings only come ito it for the purpose of the 90 day rule and since there is no requirement to log them it's somewhat difficult to prove whether or not you complied. I normally put "x landings" in the remarks column if there's more than one and if I wanted to be pedantic I'd put "no landing" in remarks if someone else did the landing.
As for splitting one flight with another pilot, I've done it several times on long trips on the continent, if for instance we find that we're flying a particularly long leg. Each of us logs the time we actually flew, and makes a note in the Remarks column explaining the whole thing, eg "X flew from Y to Z and landed", or something similar.
Common sense is allowed in logbooks, honest!
As for what seat you fly from, AFAIK in some aircraft (such as the R22) you have to fly it solo from a certain seat for weight and balance reasons. Also, some flying schools or clubs or groups may make their own rules. Otherwise you can sit in any seat and fly it as you like.
Upto The Buffers
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Leeds/Bradford
Age: 48
Posts: 1,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know a couple of career instructors (ie. not hour builders) who fly solo from the right seat, purely because they're so used to it. I fly a fair bit with other members of my group so am reasonably happy in either seat, although it makes sense to place yourself in front of the panel with most of the instruments on it.
As far as logging goes, if I've flown someone else's aircraft with them logging P1, sure, I'll put it in my logbook, but just leave the time logged column empty and put N/A or PAX as my capacity on the flight.
PS. Did one of these flights include a rather scruffy landing by the P1 at Leeds?
As far as logging goes, if I've flown someone else's aircraft with them logging P1, sure, I'll put it in my logbook, but just leave the time logged column empty and put N/A or PAX as my capacity on the flight.
PS. Did one of these flights include a rather scruffy landing by the P1 at Leeds?