High Viz Jackets - Mandatory at GA Airfields?
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Why do people always used that pathetic line, 'well we managed alright.
before'?
We managed alright before car seat belts came out, before disc brakes became standard, when everyone drove around with sidelights. We managed alright before cars had airbags amd laminated windscreens. When houses had wire fuses. When soft furniture did not have fire retardent covers.We managed alright before smoke alarms
In fact we managed alright before aircraft came along and in fact we managed alright when we lived in caves.
But thank God there are people out there who dont think we are managing alright and think there is a better safer way of doing things to improve the lives of all of us.
Everyday the world changes but lifes passengers, the staid, only get a day older not wiser
ASK CAPTAIN JON
before'?
We managed alright before car seat belts came out, before disc brakes became standard, when everyone drove around with sidelights. We managed alright before cars had airbags amd laminated windscreens. When houses had wire fuses. When soft furniture did not have fire retardent covers.We managed alright before smoke alarms
In fact we managed alright before aircraft came along and in fact we managed alright when we lived in caves.
But thank God there are people out there who dont think we are managing alright and think there is a better safer way of doing things to improve the lives of all of us.
Everyday the world changes but lifes passengers, the staid, only get a day older not wiser
ASK CAPTAIN JON
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yep.
do'nt really see what the problem is..are we really debating why its better not do wear hi viz just because we never did so before...??
why is it a big deal to see and be seen.
we put on lights for taxi and take off and landing so we stand a better chance of being seen...
we put on a shirt though we did'nt always ( ask the cave dwellers.!)..so what is the problem about something that weighs so little ( now if they ask us to start wearing a hard hat even i might object ..
)...and might just prevent injury.
its hardly a major earth shattering thing to put one on while you are out around the ramp even at the flying club....just because you never did so before...
all things move on...some for the better, but if it helps in just a few cases prevent death or serious injury even at the small flying field, who as a responsible pilot could object.
the dean.
do'nt really see what the problem is..are we really debating why its better not do wear hi viz just because we never did so before...??
why is it a big deal to see and be seen.
we put on lights for taxi and take off and landing so we stand a better chance of being seen...
we put on a shirt though we did'nt always ( ask the cave dwellers.!)..so what is the problem about something that weighs so little ( now if they ask us to start wearing a hard hat even i might object ..
)...and might just prevent injury.its hardly a major earth shattering thing to put one on while you are out around the ramp even at the flying club....just because you never did so before...
all things move on...some for the better, but if it helps in just a few cases prevent death or serious injury even at the small flying field, who as a responsible pilot could object.
the dean.
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Its the way that people enforce these rules that gets peoples backs up rather than the jackets per se.
Personally I just do not see the justification for them. Shout and dance about seat belts and landing lights, they have a proven benefit. Show me a proven benefit of a high viz jacket.
Personally I just do not see the justification for them. Shout and dance about seat belts and landing lights, they have a proven benefit. Show me a proven benefit of a high viz jacket.
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Its 'Elf & Safety' innit
Yes, there are sensible rationalisations for this, but is there any evidence that it is actually needed? Just telling us it will help isn't enough. There are all sorts of essential safety gear that could be suggested - flame-proof overalls, helmets, safety boots etc etc - just in case.
The classic nonsense happened last year when an annual parade of WW2 veterans was almost cancelled because the 'Kevins' in the local Council insisted they were escorted by hi-vi wearing stewards, at ludicrous cost.
All of us when we go airside take our lives in our hands, and accept that risk. Wearing a hi-vi does not in itself guarantee anything.
Yes, there are sensible rationalisations for this, but is there any evidence that it is actually needed? Just telling us it will help isn't enough. There are all sorts of essential safety gear that could be suggested - flame-proof overalls, helmets, safety boots etc etc - just in case.
The classic nonsense happened last year when an annual parade of WW2 veterans was almost cancelled because the 'Kevins' in the local Council insisted they were escorted by hi-vi wearing stewards, at ludicrous cost.
All of us when we go airside take our lives in our hands, and accept that risk. Wearing a hi-vi does not in itself guarantee anything.
rondon and the dean the whole point is that nobody has been killed on a GA airfield in an accident that would have been prevented by wearing a HiViz vest. Just because somebody says do something doesn't mean that you can't apply rational thought and say No, sorry, I disagree with that. As bose x says, it's not the vests per se it's the domineering "we know what's good for you" attitude of people who are imposing needless rules which potentially diminishes respect for rules that really need to be in place.
Thread Starter
Yes and the focusing on trivia such as the wearing of high-vis vests at GA airfields actually distracts us from other much more important safety issues, which as pilots we have direct control over.
When I am at work at major airports I have no issue with wearing a high vis vest when I do the walkround as there are all sorts of hazards around but when I am at my average GA airfield I just cannot see the point and, as has been commented previously, the way in which this is enforced by some does little to promote good relations between pilots and airfield managements!
When I am at work at major airports I have no issue with wearing a high vis vest when I do the walkround as there are all sorts of hazards around but when I am at my average GA airfield I just cannot see the point and, as has been commented previously, the way in which this is enforced by some does little to promote good relations between pilots and airfield managements!
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Originally Posted by The Dean
do'nt really see what the problem is..are we really debating why its better not do wear hi viz just because we never did so before...??
why is it a big deal to see and be seen.
why is it a big deal to see and be seen.
Remember the Hi Viz is not there for pilot's to see you. It is for ground vehicles, which are moving much faster, quieter and in more random directions to see you!
I would be very interested in any incidents where an aircraft has hit/or come close to a person where Hi Viz would have made a difference.
There are many incidents of people and aircraft coming in contact. Many of them the aircraft is motionless and people walk into the wing, propeller, jet intake. Some of them the airplane is moving with no pilot (hand propped plane gets away) some of them the pilot thinks the marshaller has moved out of the way and he hasn't.
I suspect if you looked at near misses, accidents and illnesses at airfields w/o extensive ground handling infrastructure you would see the following risks
- Danger of bashing oneself on the wings when walking around stationary aircraft
- Danger of walking into a spinning prop
- Danger of accidentally starting the engine and causing injury with prop
- Danger of being hit by a car in the parking lot
- Danger of running over your foot while pushing or pulling your aircraft
- Danger of pollution/allergic reaction from spilling avgas on hands and ground
- Danger of Avgas fire
REAL safety improvements should be implemented, but I don't see which material risk the hi vis protects. Mandating the use of the filter fuel samplers and gloves so people don't spill on themselves and don't poor the stuff on the ground would be a much more useful spend of £10.
On the airport at which I work I have to wear hi vis.
I have to wear steel toed safety footware.
I have to wear ear defenders at all times.
I have to have an ID card permanently visible.
Pilots and crews transitting the ramp only wear high vis.
Sadly the modern world writes the rules for the most stupid and then applies then to all.
Maybe what we need are a series of colour coded epaulettes which identify your IQ. Then when seen without a high vis they can check your epaulettes determine that you are an intelligent person and accept that you are clearly brighter than your dimmer friends and therefore do not need a high vis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I have to wear steel toed safety footware.
I have to wear ear defenders at all times.
I have to have an ID card permanently visible.
Pilots and crews transitting the ramp only wear high vis.
Sadly the modern world writes the rules for the most stupid and then applies then to all.
Maybe what we need are a series of colour coded epaulettes which identify your IQ. Then when seen without a high vis they can check your epaulettes determine that you are an intelligent person and accept that you are clearly brighter than your dimmer friends and therefore do not need a high vis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Last edited by ericferret; 29th Mar 2007 at 12:07. Reason: Spelling
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OK you all win lets cancel all rules and laws, lets just have free for all, lets all do what we like.
Lets drive around at any speed we like and knife anyone we dont like the look of-- it really sounds like a great new world or am i describing inner city areas that most of us that can afford to fly never go near.
#
See you in court!
ASK CAPTAIN JON
Lets drive around at any speed we like and knife anyone we dont like the look of-- it really sounds like a great new world or am i describing inner city areas that most of us that can afford to fly never go near.
#
See you in court!
ASK CAPTAIN JON
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OK you all win lets cancel all rules and laws, lets just have free for all, lets all do what we like.
Lets drive around at any speed we like and knife anyone we dont like the look of-- it really sounds like a great new world or am i describing inner city areas that most of us that can afford to fly never go near.
#
See you in court!
Lets drive around at any speed we like and knife anyone we dont like the look of-- it really sounds like a great new world or am i describing inner city areas that most of us that can afford to fly never go near.
#
See you in court!
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Ref Hi-Viz
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men - and women.
SOPs
Look where you're going and think what you're doing.
QED
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men - and women.
SOPs
Look where you're going and think what you're doing.
QED
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I hate hi-viz tabards.
However, they have their advantages when you're doing a walk-round on a wet night as opposed to during the day in brilliant sunshine.
The luminous strips help at night when visibility is reduced. But why do we have to wear them on a CAVOK day?
By the way, the ones in BA have the following written on the back in red: "DO NOT REMOVE FROM AIRCRAFT" Therefore, if you can't remove it from the aircraft how are you meant to do your walk-round in it?
However, they have their advantages when you're doing a walk-round on a wet night as opposed to during the day in brilliant sunshine.
The luminous strips help at night when visibility is reduced. But why do we have to wear them on a CAVOK day?
By the way, the ones in BA have the following written on the back in red: "DO NOT REMOVE FROM AIRCRAFT" Therefore, if you can't remove it from the aircraft how are you meant to do your walk-round in it?
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The "experts" that guide management in these matters will point to the lack of incidents as evidence of their success. They are unlikely to draw equal attention to the fall in the number of hours flown, or the drop in the number PPL's.
I put a great deal of effort into qualifying as PIC. I will take responsibility for what happens airside.
By all means suggest, recommend, advise or whatever, compulsion will end in extinction.
I put a great deal of effort into qualifying as PIC. I will take responsibility for what happens airside.
By all means suggest, recommend, advise or whatever, compulsion will end in extinction.
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Hardly a big deal. Anyone who can get themselves worked up about this is surely not stable enough to deserve a pilot's licence, yes?
Errr. No!
Anyone compliant and gullible enough to comply with this just because 'they' tell him to hasn't got the backbone and descisiveness to be a pilot in command.
Gertrude - hand in your licence and take up golf!
SSD
Errr. No!
Anyone compliant and gullible enough to comply with this just because 'they' tell him to hasn't got the backbone and descisiveness to be a pilot in command.
Gertrude - hand in your licence and take up golf!
SSD
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Anyone who spends enough time in South Manchester, has probably come across "handcart Dave," a man, some would say, of feeble mind.
He seems to make his money by collecting scrap from the local residents, and transporting said scrap to the local scrap yard. (Holding up most of the traffic in the process!)
One day, so local legend says, Dave was seen to be sprinkling white powder along the footpaths.
"What you doing Dave," shouted one of the local chaps.
"I'm sprinkling anti-giraffe powder," exclaimed Dave.
"There 'aint no giraffe's in Altrincham Dave,"
"Yeh......it's fecking good stuff isn't it,"
Now I've got a Masters Degree in sifting through research papers, but I reckon I learnt more from Dave that day, than all my years at Uni
PS, local legend also has it, that Dave used to shout "rag bone," when brought in front of the beak for his various tax evasions- never seemed to get a conviction. I reckon he's not that daft.
He seems to make his money by collecting scrap from the local residents, and transporting said scrap to the local scrap yard. (Holding up most of the traffic in the process!)
One day, so local legend says, Dave was seen to be sprinkling white powder along the footpaths.
"What you doing Dave," shouted one of the local chaps.
"I'm sprinkling anti-giraffe powder," exclaimed Dave.
"There 'aint no giraffe's in Altrincham Dave,"
"Yeh......it's fecking good stuff isn't it,"
Now I've got a Masters Degree in sifting through research papers, but I reckon I learnt more from Dave that day, than all my years at Uni
PS, local legend also has it, that Dave used to shout "rag bone," when brought in front of the beak for his various tax evasions- never seemed to get a conviction. I reckon he's not that daft.
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Just a wee point-ette about aerodromes
It is true that the Campaign Against Aviation does not mandate the wearing of high viz clothing, so no more nonsense about that then.
What they do mandate is that to hold a license to operate said aerodrome one must satisfy the local inspector (yes yes oh yes!) that a Safety Management System is in place. See that easy read CAP168.
Now on the basis that all aerodromes are in fact private property, or Municipal land with bye laws, means that the owner can stipulate whatever rules they like, as a condition of use.
I would love to own a licensed aerodrome simply for the opportunity to enact some bizarre Apron Safety Rules of my own (and MATS part ll - what an opportunity )
Just as you would not permit some visitors to do, or not do, certain things in your garden, so can airfield owners. At the end of the day, you dont have to go there if it upsets you.
Sir George Cayley
What they do mandate is that to hold a license to operate said aerodrome one must satisfy the local inspector (yes yes oh yes!) that a Safety Management System is in place. See that easy read CAP168.
Now on the basis that all aerodromes are in fact private property, or Municipal land with bye laws, means that the owner can stipulate whatever rules they like, as a condition of use.
I would love to own a licensed aerodrome simply for the opportunity to enact some bizarre Apron Safety Rules of my own (and MATS part ll - what an opportunity
)Just as you would not permit some visitors to do, or not do, certain things in your garden, so can airfield owners. At the end of the day, you dont have to go there if it upsets you.
Sir George Cayley
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tabards
Everytime i hear it called a tabard I think back to a theatre show i was in called Julius Caesar by W.S
Now I just imagine pilots wandering around in Roman wear. Ramp/Fire crew dressed as senators. Captains/F.O's/GA pilots dressed in full gladiator attire. Even though the sword may get in the way of the throttle(s) and the shield may obscure forward vision. This aside, I like the idea of the Roman theme and think it would add an air of culture to most flights.
To finish the whole picture of, we could have ATC saying with each departure clearance;
"aviators who are about to fly, we salute you."
(the original line being; gladiators who are about to die....etc.,but that a bit morbid for aviation)
Now I just imagine pilots wandering around in Roman wear. Ramp/Fire crew dressed as senators. Captains/F.O's/GA pilots dressed in full gladiator attire. Even though the sword may get in the way of the throttle(s) and the shield may obscure forward vision. This aside, I like the idea of the Roman theme and think it would add an air of culture to most flights.
To finish the whole picture of, we could have ATC saying with each departure clearance;
"aviators who are about to fly, we salute you."
(the original line being; gladiators who are about to die....etc.,but that a bit morbid for aviation)