Is it acceptable or appropriate for PPLs to wear 1 gold bar
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There have been discussions on this topic on some of the other forums recently with some good posts from survivors of incidents/accidents that would not fly in anything less than full nomex & Bonedome now.
But at the same time the spamcans are car-like and you also have to bear in mind your passengers view if they are in normal clothes and you are in a bonedome!
I thought there might be a niche in the market for aviation clothing that looked OK for normal attire, but would afford the protection and utility we require. As I said previously the Fat-Face trousers are almost there, as are some others, but the normal clothing provided by the aviation stores would not look right on a PPL under 50
But at the same time the spamcans are car-like and you also have to bear in mind your passengers view if they are in normal clothes and you are in a bonedome!
I thought there might be a niche in the market for aviation clothing that looked OK for normal attire, but would afford the protection and utility we require. As I said previously the Fat-Face trousers are almost there, as are some others, but the normal clothing provided by the aviation stores would not look right on a PPL under 50
It rather depends on what they're about to fly....
. Anyway, i'm sorry I drifted this thread into safety, as gold bars certainly have no benefit in that area.What was the reference to Fat Face about? Do they do nomex gear or something? Or are my regular FF trousers fireproof
?Ginger
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I agree wholeheartedly with Wessex Boy on the safety aspect.
I always wear a pair of RAF gloves (good grip, fire retardant and keep your hands clean). If its a bit blowy on the airfield, I wear an RAF Mk3 jacket. If I am flying the Bulldog or the DHC1 I often wear a growbag (no wings/name badge tho) & flying boots. If I am crossing water, I will wear an RAF Mk25 life preserver (and so will Mrs Vulcanpilot).
Do I look a tit? Probably, but then I think the 'hairy biker' who rides to the club on his fancy painted up motorised pushbike with matching leathers and helmet looks a tit (my opinion). But that seems totally accepted. As does wearing all the flashy suits/shoes/gloves/helmet etc if you play with motor cars on a racing circuit. And what about golfers ....... what safety aspect do garish trousers and Pringle sweaters provide? Enough said.
Aviation seems to be the only passtime where if you fly in anything other than shorts and a t-shirt you are considered to be a 'topgun wannabe' or a tit.
Why do I wear ex-RAF kit? - well, its quite cheap, and lets be honest, the quality is superb. I have found NOTHING to compare to the Mk3 Flying Jacket for insulation properties, comfort and places to bung things. It cost me £25 for a brand new one. The Mk25 life preservers knock spots off anything the aviation suppliers sell and I would prefer to trust my life to something the pro's trust their life to - not some re-badged thing normally used by dinghy paddlers.
But to get back on-thread, I would draw the line long before wearing stripes on my eppaulettes!
I always wear a pair of RAF gloves (good grip, fire retardant and keep your hands clean). If its a bit blowy on the airfield, I wear an RAF Mk3 jacket. If I am flying the Bulldog or the DHC1 I often wear a growbag (no wings/name badge tho) & flying boots. If I am crossing water, I will wear an RAF Mk25 life preserver (and so will Mrs Vulcanpilot).
Do I look a tit? Probably, but then I think the 'hairy biker' who rides to the club on his fancy painted up motorised pushbike with matching leathers and helmet looks a tit (my opinion). But that seems totally accepted. As does wearing all the flashy suits/shoes/gloves/helmet etc if you play with motor cars on a racing circuit. And what about golfers ....... what safety aspect do garish trousers and Pringle sweaters provide? Enough said.
Aviation seems to be the only passtime where if you fly in anything other than shorts and a t-shirt you are considered to be a 'topgun wannabe' or a tit.
Why do I wear ex-RAF kit? - well, its quite cheap, and lets be honest, the quality is superb. I have found NOTHING to compare to the Mk3 Flying Jacket for insulation properties, comfort and places to bung things. It cost me £25 for a brand new one. The Mk25 life preservers knock spots off anything the aviation suppliers sell and I would prefer to trust my life to something the pro's trust their life to - not some re-badged thing normally used by dinghy paddlers.
But to get back on-thread, I would draw the line long before wearing stripes on my eppaulettes!
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Dressing up.
In winter a 20 year old leather jacket with a pair of tiny AOPA wings pinned to the collar. And jeans.
Mid seasons a green ex Italian Airforce flying jacket I was given from a real airforce pilot with my name patch and a Airforce SM260 patch (I have had the good fortune to fly a military one and am proud of it). And jeans.
On flying club tours to Europe of more than a week we all wear flight overalls because pratical and helps getting through airport security.
In summer ... just shorts. If you can stand the sight I can post a picture.
If I get to fly a C206 down to Kenya soon I will get a white shirt and as many bars possible: I believe it is mandatory for airport authorities to recognize you as a pilot.
And I will probably enjoy it.
But I will never wear them to the club, or worse, to town
In winter a 20 year old leather jacket with a pair of tiny AOPA wings pinned to the collar. And jeans.
Mid seasons a green ex Italian Airforce flying jacket I was given from a real airforce pilot with my name patch and a Airforce SM260 patch (I have had the good fortune to fly a military one and am proud of it). And jeans.
On flying club tours to Europe of more than a week we all wear flight overalls because pratical and helps getting through airport security.
In summer ... just shorts. If you can stand the sight I can post a picture.
If I get to fly a C206 down to Kenya soon I will get a white shirt and as many bars possible: I believe it is mandatory for airport authorities to recognize you as a pilot.
And I will probably enjoy it.
But I will never wear them to the club, or worse, to town
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What was the reference to Fat Face about? Do they do nomex gear or something? Or are my regular FF trousers fireproof ?
Ginger: I only mentioned them as they are pure Cotton and have pockets in the same place as a Gro-bag.
but no Gold Bars......
?Ginger: I only mentioned them as they are pure Cotton and have pockets in the same place as a Gro-bag.
but no Gold Bars......
. Back to the sewing machine then.
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I've yet to see a light a/c with the SRS, side-curtains, air-bags & crumple-zones that my Volvo has. Plus, at the first sign of fire I fully intend to pull over at once, jump out & run like fcuk. Try that at 3000' !
Wessex - I fully agree. Time we had a range of Nomex gear for GA pilots. Robinsons Heli's have already started a motion with an a/d stating a recommendation that all pax & crew wear proper flying clothing & bone-dome!
ap
Wessex - I fully agree. Time we had a range of Nomex gear for GA pilots. Robinsons Heli's have already started a motion with an a/d stating a recommendation that all pax & crew wear proper flying clothing & bone-dome!
ap
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The original subject of the thread, despite being the catalyst for some interesting and amusing debate, puzzles me a bit. Has anyone genuinely seen a PPL turn up at their club or school with gold bars on their epaullettes, worn in all seriousness, to go flying?
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I flew into Jersey once and 2 guys on pilot uniforms with 4 gold bars were unloading a Cherokee after a shopping trip to Cherbourg. I asked if they were commercial pilots or even instructors and was told they were just PPL's but as they were "captains" they wore uniform.
Each to there own!
I seem to recall even the Instructors at the Jersey Aero Club prefer shorts and t-shirts rather than stupid uniforms. Makes the place seem so much friendlier and approachable.
Each to there own!
I seem to recall even the Instructors at the Jersey Aero Club prefer shorts and t-shirts rather than stupid uniforms. Makes the place seem so much friendlier and approachable.
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I normally wear an ex-RAF fireproof suit with my WFAeC badge on.
I know it looks silly in a small microlight, but I don't care.
It's warm, fireproof, has lots of pockets & pen holders and the plastic chart pockets on the legs are useful; 1 side for the AFE info and the other for scribbling down the QFE etc.
No need for a knee-board.
Rans.
I know it looks silly in a small microlight, but I don't care.
It's warm, fireproof, has lots of pockets & pen holders and the plastic chart pockets on the legs are useful; 1 side for the AFE info and the other for scribbling down the QFE etc.
No need for a knee-board.
Rans.
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Why do you need to wear gold epaulette thingies to show you are a pilot. Don't you think the aeroplane you arrived in sort of gives it away..........?
Airline crew need rank markings in case they get confused, PPLs only need a pair of Rayban aviators and a black plastic pilot case and they are instantly recognisable as PPLs...
Airline crew need rank markings in case they get confused, PPLs only need a pair of Rayban aviators and a black plastic pilot case and they are instantly recognisable as PPLs...
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FTN article "Bar Wars"
The April issue of Flight Training News (available at most flying schools) has an article on this very subject, entitled "Bar Wars". Apparently Appendix F to the amendments to the something-or-other Act focus on security issues, and propose to use gold bars for security checks, instead of airline pilots having a hard time getting airside and having items like pens confiscated. So ALL pilots will have to wear gold bars - one for PPLs, 2 for CPLs, 3 for frozen ATPLs, four for unrestricted ATPLs. In order for these bars to be recognised by scanners, they will of course have to be in a specified material and of a specifc width - so all current gold bars are now defunct. As this will be a legal requirement and is a safety issue, uniform suppliers will have to have background security checks.
There was a load of rigmarole about all the other issues surrounding this, and as I read it, I thought it sounded totally crazy. Could it be true? Well, perhaps; it was no crazier than suggesting that gliders and hang-gliders have Mode S transponders, for instance. But when I got to AFE being an ISO010407 organisation who was qualified to do all this, I realised it was the April FTN, and began to wonder.... And then, when I read that it would be implemented at midnight on March 31st, ad that the next day anyone wearing unauthorised braid would have to hand it in and check in via the passenger security gates....the day after March 31st, yeah, OK.
And then I turned over, and there was a large, convincing looking AFE ad for "all your airside security clothing requirements", and it tells you in small print to "send your order with...a blank cheque made payable to 'AFE April Fool Fund'....along with any unauthorised epaulettes in your possession...and 78 passport-sized photos of yourself".
Nice one, FTN
There was a load of rigmarole about all the other issues surrounding this, and as I read it, I thought it sounded totally crazy. Could it be true? Well, perhaps; it was no crazier than suggesting that gliders and hang-gliders have Mode S transponders, for instance. But when I got to AFE being an ISO010407 organisation who was qualified to do all this, I realised it was the April FTN, and began to wonder.... And then, when I read that it would be implemented at midnight on March 31st, ad that the next day anyone wearing unauthorised braid would have to hand it in and check in via the passenger security gates....the day after March 31st, yeah, OK.
And then I turned over, and there was a large, convincing looking AFE ad for "all your airside security clothing requirements", and it tells you in small print to "send your order with...a blank cheque made payable to 'AFE April Fool Fund'....along with any unauthorised epaulettes in your possession...and 78 passport-sized photos of yourself".
Nice one, FTN
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I'd like to know how fire retardent gloves boots underpants googles and whatever else you wear is going to help you at any altitude if your aircraft is on fire. Short of exceeding Vne and ripping the wings off to get the aircraft on the ground-its still going to take a while to get that aircraft on the ground. if theres fire, the clothes will only take so much before they no longer serve their purpose (at which time you are still gliding down)
If you are wearing it on the assumption that if there was a problem, and you crashed during an ensuing forced landing which resulted in a fire - chances are you would be out of that aircraft in a flash(pardon the pun) or if you crashed landed and the aircraft caught fire and you were jammed in - no one is going to be around to get you out for a while. Your fire retardent clothes will only delay the burns.
Some on this thread have mentioned wearing gloves when flying their light aircraft for better adhession...if you sweat that much you shouldn't be flying!!! If your having to 'hang' onto the controls, you shouldn't be flying! or perhapes, because you are wearing all this fire retardent stuff - your swealtering??
As to PPL stripes - grippers We have quite a few flying establishments over here which provide full time courses. What you do see is the name of the establishment on the shoulders - no stripes unless you are an instructor.
If you are wearing it on the assumption that if there was a problem, and you crashed during an ensuing forced landing which resulted in a fire - chances are you would be out of that aircraft in a flash(pardon the pun) or if you crashed landed and the aircraft caught fire and you were jammed in - no one is going to be around to get you out for a while. Your fire retardent clothes will only delay the burns.
Some on this thread have mentioned wearing gloves when flying their light aircraft for better adhession...if you sweat that much you shouldn't be flying!!! If your having to 'hang' onto the controls, you shouldn't be flying! or perhapes, because you are wearing all this fire retardent stuff - your swealtering??
As to PPL stripes - grippers
We have quite a few flying establishments over here which provide full time courses. What you do see is the name of the establishment on the shoulders - no stripes unless you are an instructor.
Last edited by conflict alert; 4th Apr 2007 at 10:44.
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Conflict - Do you not think there is a reason that military flying organisations around the world wear fireproof clothing? Regardless of their stream - be it fast jet, rotary, multi or even sat in the training system on L/A - the only clothing you will fly in is a fireproof suit, leather gloves, boots and (temperature dependant) a fireproof flying jacket. It's not to look akin to Maverick and Goose, or even so you can strut to and from an aeroplane looking cool - it's a simple factor of safety.
Admitted if you're at FL080 and you have an electrical fire you may have a slim chance of reaching the ground before it overcomes you and your clothing, but a simple pair of leather gloves means you can reach the circuit breakers and battery switches to shut them off and hopefully extinguish the fire - rather than losing the skin on your hands from the heat. Not forgetting that because you can't even attempt to control the fire, as it gets hotter and the flames get larger your polyester clothing is going to start to melt. On top of that, as the plastic units start to melt you're going to have fumes in the cockpit - but because you're already burnt there isn't a lot you can do about it except take a good lung full of the stuff, and finally the burns on your hand stopping you from taking control of the yoke/stick, so you are almost guaranteed to have a moment of rapid deceleration shortly after letting go.
Dramatic - probably, but a definite possibility. Whilst nobody can tell you what to, or what not to wear - it seems daft to not shell out a relatively minor sum to get yourself some kit that potentially could save your life. Agreed safety clothing doesn't give you a magic shield against any and all dangers in the air - but it gives you a fighting chance to do something about an in flight emergency.
Admitted if you're at FL080 and you have an electrical fire you may have a slim chance of reaching the ground before it overcomes you and your clothing, but a simple pair of leather gloves means you can reach the circuit breakers and battery switches to shut them off and hopefully extinguish the fire - rather than losing the skin on your hands from the heat. Not forgetting that because you can't even attempt to control the fire, as it gets hotter and the flames get larger your polyester clothing is going to start to melt. On top of that, as the plastic units start to melt you're going to have fumes in the cockpit - but because you're already burnt there isn't a lot you can do about it except take a good lung full of the stuff, and finally the burns on your hand stopping you from taking control of the yoke/stick, so you are almost guaranteed to have a moment of rapid deceleration shortly after letting go.
Dramatic - probably, but a definite possibility. Whilst nobody can tell you what to, or what not to wear - it seems daft to not shell out a relatively minor sum to get yourself some kit that potentially could save your life. Agreed safety clothing doesn't give you a magic shield against any and all dangers in the air - but it gives you a fighting chance to do something about an in flight emergency.
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I'd like to know how fire retardent gloves boots underpants googles and whatever else you wear is going to help you at any altitude if your aircraft is on fire.
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Bloody hell, this is getting like a fashion discussion.
When I go flying I usually wear a pair of jeans or combat trousers and a green NATO jumper... nothing fancy, no badges etc. merely practical stuff.
Wouldn't mind an Alpha CWU-45, would be useful since it can get a bit chilly out on the ramp, but not sure since they're a bit expensive and I wouldn't want to be labelled a "Maverick" wannabe. There again they don't have badges or anything silly on them so they're OK to me.
Not into Ray-Bans or Irvin jackets though... too "Top Gun" for me. Not into that sort of thing.
P.S. Although if you fly a Tiger Moth I do believe that automatically entitles you to wear an Irvin!
When I go flying I usually wear a pair of jeans or combat trousers and a green NATO jumper... nothing fancy, no badges etc. merely practical stuff.
Wouldn't mind an Alpha CWU-45, would be useful since it can get a bit chilly out on the ramp, but not sure since they're a bit expensive and I wouldn't want to be labelled a "Maverick" wannabe. There again they don't have badges or anything silly on them so they're OK to me.
Not into Ray-Bans or Irvin jackets though... too "Top Gun" for me. Not into that sort of thing.
P.S. Although if you fly a Tiger Moth I do believe that automatically entitles you to wear an Irvin!
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DSAA - You are entirely correct but you've got to keep in mind the specific aircraft we fly, and the specific missions we fly with them.
A military pilot sits on top of a very powerful engine, is loaded with ammo, has zillions of electric systems around him (various radars, UHF, VHF, transponders, jammers, whatnot) and on top of it - gets shot at. Not to mention sitting more or less *inside* a rocket called an ejection seat. You guys deliberately do very dangerous things, and should absolutely wear the clothing to match. Plus, your fireproof clothing is probably integrated, or at least designed as not to conflict with other systems, such as a g-suit, parachute, and oxygen mask. (I doubt whether a g-suit & parachute straps on top of denim jeans would be comfy...)
A private pilot will be lucky if he is able to afford anything over 250 horsepower. Between the engine and the passenger compartment is a firewall and there'll be a fuel shutoff somewhere close to that firewall. The electric system is very basic, all high-current components are in front of the firewall, and the whole system can be switched off via at least two ways (electric master & the circuit breakers). Switching off the entire electric system, by the way, does not influence the flying qualities at all - no fly by wire in our airplanes. And shutting off the fuel just turns our airframe into a 1:10 glider, not into a brick, with reasonably good prospects of survival. Other than the fuel and the cloth inside the interior, there's not a lot of flammable stuff around. Particularly no stuff that's designed to go "boom". And we typically do not get shot at in the course of our missions.
So the entire tradeoff of safety vs. convenience/cost is different. And so far the statistics seem not to contradict this: How often is there an in-flight or post-crash fire in a light aircraft resulting in more or less serious injury (from minor burns to death)?
And there's a side issue too. I think I have a responsibility as PIC to supply my passengers with the same amount of safety as I have myself. But I can't expect my passengers to go to a dump shop and buy a nomex suit, bonedome, life vest and whatnot before they go and fly with me. From a safety-aspect it makes sense, from a convenience and cost aspect it does not.
As far as the statistics are concerned, private flying (Day VFR) is about as safe as driving a car, in terms of fatalities per km. And as long as everybody hops into a car without considering what sort of clothing they wear, and its safety aspects in case of a crash, I'm not going to worry about it when flying privately.
Admittedly, if I do fly outside my normal Day VFR private flying envelope, I do take a few additional precautions. Life vests for crossing the Channel for example.
A military pilot sits on top of a very powerful engine, is loaded with ammo, has zillions of electric systems around him (various radars, UHF, VHF, transponders, jammers, whatnot) and on top of it - gets shot at. Not to mention sitting more or less *inside* a rocket called an ejection seat. You guys deliberately do very dangerous things, and should absolutely wear the clothing to match. Plus, your fireproof clothing is probably integrated, or at least designed as not to conflict with other systems, such as a g-suit, parachute, and oxygen mask. (I doubt whether a g-suit & parachute straps on top of denim jeans would be comfy...)
A private pilot will be lucky if he is able to afford anything over 250 horsepower. Between the engine and the passenger compartment is a firewall and there'll be a fuel shutoff somewhere close to that firewall. The electric system is very basic, all high-current components are in front of the firewall, and the whole system can be switched off via at least two ways (electric master & the circuit breakers). Switching off the entire electric system, by the way, does not influence the flying qualities at all - no fly by wire in our airplanes. And shutting off the fuel just turns our airframe into a 1:10 glider, not into a brick, with reasonably good prospects of survival. Other than the fuel and the cloth inside the interior, there's not a lot of flammable stuff around. Particularly no stuff that's designed to go "boom". And we typically do not get shot at in the course of our missions.
So the entire tradeoff of safety vs. convenience/cost is different. And so far the statistics seem not to contradict this: How often is there an in-flight or post-crash fire in a light aircraft resulting in more or less serious injury (from minor burns to death)?
And there's a side issue too. I think I have a responsibility as PIC to supply my passengers with the same amount of safety as I have myself. But I can't expect my passengers to go to a dump shop and buy a nomex suit, bonedome, life vest and whatnot before they go and fly with me. From a safety-aspect it makes sense, from a convenience and cost aspect it does not.
As far as the statistics are concerned, private flying (Day VFR) is about as safe as driving a car, in terms of fatalities per km. And as long as everybody hops into a car without considering what sort of clothing they wear, and its safety aspects in case of a crash, I'm not going to worry about it when flying privately.
Admittedly, if I do fly outside my normal Day VFR private flying envelope, I do take a few additional precautions. Life vests for crossing the Channel for example.
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While I don’t agree with your point backpacker, you state it well. However, it falls apart rather quickly when you consider just two examples that are taken from real life. You soon see that the scenarios just don’t play out the way you have stated them in your post.
First off; bird strike. ‘Fatal Traps’ is full of examples of this that are influenced by simply wearing a helmet. No more needs said.
Secondly, the military display pilot who, years back, did a display in his Lightning without incident, then had a bad afternoon in his’ less than 250hp’ civvy machine. Were he not wearing protective gear when he crashed, he felt it would have been a fatality by burning, this being borne out by his unfortunate wife who was dressed in normal summer clothing. Not good. At least he could help remove her from the wreckage due to the protective nature of his dress. Thats real 'passenger responsibility' of why the guy who flies it should at least take some steps of protection in my book.
As I said, it’s not about trying to look like some patch wearing wannabee, it’s about taking reasonable steps to protect yourself if you get a swipe from the bad luck fairy. As someone who went skidding up the asphalt after coming off a motorbike on more than one occasion, I rather believe in taking at least some steps to be the right side of cautious. It's why I dont have skin grafts nor plates in my skull (debatable!).
If it all works for you however, then good luck with it. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
Edited for spelling.
First off; bird strike. ‘Fatal Traps’ is full of examples of this that are influenced by simply wearing a helmet. No more needs said.
Secondly, the military display pilot who, years back, did a display in his Lightning without incident, then had a bad afternoon in his’ less than 250hp’ civvy machine. Were he not wearing protective gear when he crashed, he felt it would have been a fatality by burning, this being borne out by his unfortunate wife who was dressed in normal summer clothing. Not good. At least he could help remove her from the wreckage due to the protective nature of his dress. Thats real 'passenger responsibility' of why the guy who flies it should at least take some steps of protection in my book.
As I said, it’s not about trying to look like some patch wearing wannabee, it’s about taking reasonable steps to protect yourself if you get a swipe from the bad luck fairy. As someone who went skidding up the asphalt after coming off a motorbike on more than one occasion, I rather believe in taking at least some steps to be the right side of cautious. It's why I dont have skin grafts nor plates in my skull (debatable!).
If it all works for you however, then good luck with it. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
Edited for spelling.
Last edited by Chukkablade; 4th Apr 2007 at 14:15.
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Chukka...well said. In the end everyone finds a formula which works for them and sticks to it, I'm sure there are plenty of pilots who have come unstuck whilst wearing every item of protective clothing they could find, whilst other guys have walked away without a scratch in shorts and tee-shirt.