ADF/DME for the IMC rating

[grasspirate]

Following some post regarding adf/dme, I've noticed that the caa requires only the provision (for the flight test) of 1 VOR or 1 ADF and there is no mention of DME. So, if you only intend to fly to the legal minimum of the IMC rating and carry 2 garmin 430 on board, does it mean you do not actually need to have an ADF and/or DME ?

[scooter boy]

In UK air space you need ADF and DME if you are conducting a flight under IFR irrespective of whether or not the aircraft is on the G-register and irrespective of the other equipment you have installed.

Rules is rules I'm afraid,

SB

[foxmoth]

In UK air space you need ADF and DME if you are conducting a flight under IFR irrespective of whether or not the aircraft is on the G-register and irrespective of the other equipment you have installed.

And the source of this info is??

You can of course fly IFR in a non radio aircraft with no navaids at all - in VMC you can even do it safely (you do not have to be in IMC or CAS to fly IFR)

[High Wing Drifter]

Agree with Foxy, the only navigational requirement for IFR in Class G is a compass. Hence the legality of non FM immune VORs outside of CAS.

[denhamflyer]

ADF/DME is for IFR in Controlled and Upper Airpace ONLY

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/gen/10105.PDF

[scooter boy]

ADF/DME is for IFR in Controlled and Upper Airpace ONLY

I stand corrected. However these items are mandatory for any meaningful IFR flight i:e instrument departure from instrument airport to instrument arrival at another instrument airport.

IFR with a compass only in uncontrolled airspace - rather you than me
SB

[tmmorris]

Yes, but 'with a compass only' supplemented by a handheld GPS? Much less silly.

Tim

[High Wing Drifter]

Quite! Just for the record, I wasn't suggesting that a compass is all you need, just pointing that it is all that is legally required, your options are open

[foxmoth]

However these items are mandatory for any meaningful IFR flight i:e instrument departure from instrument airport to instrument arrival at another instrument airport.

On an IMC rating this is often not possible anyway due to most airfields with an instrument arrival being in CAS. Much more realistic is departing from a field with a 500ft or so cloudbase and low clouds over the hills, heading for a field with decent(ish) wx. In these circumstances you will rarely use an ADF and as said, with a GPS you can also get away without DME.

[unfazed]

The IMC Training syllabus can be completed without ADF if your aircraft doesn't have ADF however I had such a situation with one training aircraft and when I asked the examiner for his views he said that ADF tracking would need to be demonstrated during the test

[IO540]

As written above, no legal need for any of the equipment if in Class G.

Moreover, IMCR training is routinely done as VFR flights (as far as ATC are told) under the hood, which is how you can fly beaten up old bangers to Class D airports for IMCR training.

As regard sensibility, it always suprised me why DME was not taught in the basic PPL. It's the simplest radio nav instrument to use by a long way. I used to use it on my pre-PPL solo flights. Just dial in a few DMEs and you have a position fix - just like that.

[scooter boy]

"departing from a field with a 500ft or so cloudbase and low clouds over the hills, heading for a field with decent(ish) wx. In these circumstances you will rarely use an ADF and as said, with a GPS you can also get away without DME."

Is it just me or does this sound just like the prodrome to so many of the CFIT type accident reports we all read from time to time?

SB

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

I asked the examiner for his views he said that ADF tracking would need to be demonstrated during the test

that may be one examiner's view, but it is not based on a legal position or CAA guidance.
The ADF remained untuned for the duration of my IMC test. In fact, I don't think we were in range of an NDB.

[Nipper2]

Last time I did my IMC renewal the DME was U/S. With agreement from the examiner we used the range function on the GNS430 instead. IIRC we even flew a 'DME' arc (and yes, I know these are not in the IMC sylabus).

[unfazed]

Agree that you don't need ADF to train for or pass an IMC test but if the MAP uses an NDB then you won't be using that approach legally and if you are in the soup and you miss then what ?

[S-Works]

IMC pilots are so good they never have to do a miss........

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

Agree that you don't need ADF to train for or pass an IMC test but if the MAP uses an NDB then you won't be using that approach legally

Common sense aside, do you have a reference for the legal argument?

Edit: coming back to this post a day later, I think I must have misread the text I quoted because it is pretty obvious that an ADF would be needed in this case. I can't remember what I though I read!

[High Wing Drifter]

CAP 393 Schedule 5 defines the requirements for radio navigation. Schedule 4 for equipment in general.

[Islander2]

In response to:
"departing from a field with a 500ft or so cloudbase and low clouds over the hills, heading for a field with decent(ish) wx. In these circumstances you will rarely use an ADF and as said, with a GPS you can also get away without DME."
Scooter Boy wrote:

Is it just me or does this sound just like the prodrome to so many of the CFIT type accident reports we all read from time to time?

... and your reasoning for making that association is?

[unfazed]

Common sense aside, do you have a reference for the legal argument?

Was always taught that if the approach is an "ILS/NDB/DME R24"

Then to legally fly the approach you need an ILS/NDB and DME (no dme then still possible but higher minima and radar required )

Sorry no legal reference as such