What are people's views on this? (PCAS)
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What are people's views on this? (PCAS)
clicky
basically as title, I am thinking of buying one, and I know what all your arguments will be, and that is "look out the damn window", well that is all very well but if all parties concerned are not looking out their window then you can get yourself in the proverbial sh*t, yesterday for example, after climbing out of EGxx, levelled off, then passenger said "did you see that? we nearly had a mid-air collision", I basically saw nothing, apparently a C172 missed us by 50ft, flying over us from our 4 o'clock, I was keeping a good look out (so I thought) but was he? same as when you are driving a car, you can be the best driver in the world but you cannot control other human beings.
Now after recent events I guess you could say I am a little hasty and that I have been spooked a tad, maybe I have, I am not afraid to admit, but the biggest thing that scares the living sh*t out of me is leaving my 2 young daughters without a dad knowing they will grow up having never really known me, my mate was killed along with his sister before Christmas last year and he left behind his 5yr old daughter, even she will grow up without really knowing him.
I'm digressing a tad now but you get the general idea, and with the introduction of Mode S (no flaming please) these will do part of the job even more? basically it can be a great aid to collision avoidance but never substitute the good ol' eyeballs out the window but as it can be seen above, anything that can warn you of traffic proximity has to be a good thing?
Thoughts & comments please, and leave the negative flaming responses at home
Dean
basically as title, I am thinking of buying one, and I know what all your arguments will be, and that is "look out the damn window", well that is all very well but if all parties concerned are not looking out their window then you can get yourself in the proverbial sh*t, yesterday for example, after climbing out of EGxx, levelled off, then passenger said "did you see that? we nearly had a mid-air collision", I basically saw nothing, apparently a C172 missed us by 50ft, flying over us from our 4 o'clock, I was keeping a good look out (so I thought) but was he? same as when you are driving a car, you can be the best driver in the world but you cannot control other human beings.
Now after recent events I guess you could say I am a little hasty and that I have been spooked a tad, maybe I have, I am not afraid to admit, but the biggest thing that scares the living sh*t out of me is leaving my 2 young daughters without a dad knowing they will grow up having never really known me, my mate was killed along with his sister before Christmas last year and he left behind his 5yr old daughter, even she will grow up without really knowing him.
I'm digressing a tad now but you get the general idea, and with the introduction of Mode S (no flaming please) these will do part of the job even more? basically it can be a great aid to collision avoidance but never substitute the good ol' eyeballs out the window but as it can be seen above, anything that can warn you of traffic proximity has to be a good thing?
Thoughts & comments please, and leave the negative flaming responses at home
Dean
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ones with the detector lights only are a bit of a frightener as it only gives a range.
Certainly buy one which gives you height and distance, but it will only work with transponder-equipped aircraft. Don't assume that because the PCAS is clear, so is the airspace
Certainly buy one which gives you height and distance, but it will only work with transponder-equipped aircraft. Don't assume that because the PCAS is clear, so is the airspace
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Robin
Yes I absolutely understand that, that's why I made the comment about Mode S, I have had to dodge the odd aircraft not equipped after a spot by ATC before
Thanks for the comments
Yes I absolutely understand that, that's why I made the comment about Mode S, I have had to dodge the odd aircraft not equipped after a spot by ATC before
Thanks for the comments
Spicy Meatball
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liverpool UK
Age: 42
Posts: 1,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anything adding to saftey is good in my book, but you have to be careful not to fixate your eyes on this device too much, resulting in not looking outside 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The £1300 unit at the top of the URL you post gives azimuth information, and that looks pretty good (if it works).
The £15000 installed GA system probably isn't a whole lot better - other than offering decent integration with existing avionics like MFDs.
One problem is that this is a purely passive receiver, relying on ground radar interrogation of the Mode C/S equipment on the target, for the target to get picked up by your box. I would guess that in the UK this will be OK, since there are loads of radars around (even if a pilot cannot get a service from most of them )
However, the biggest problem with any form of TCAS is that when flying OCAS most targets are non transponding. Lots of planes don't have a transponder. Also, lots of pilots have one but choose to exercise their civil liberties
by not switching theirs on. This also enables them to bust airspace (vertically) without getting caught, which is really smart (not). This comment is based on 5 years' flying, and using a radar information service whenever available, and finding that most reported targets are "level unknown" which makes the service close to useless. Occassionally one gets a visual and sometimes the silent target turns out to be a brand spanking new plane which obviously came with a Mode C.
Higher up, say 4000ft+, most targets appear to be transponding, but then the GA traffic density is orders of magnitude lower. Most UK GA moves about below 2000ft, it seems.
And if flying in CAS or airways, one gets a radar service, and everybody is supposed to have a Mode C/S transponder anyway. 99% of other traffic up there is commercial stuff, and at nonpressurised levels you will be so alone that you may not see another plane (anywhere near your level) in many flights.
I wouldn't spend the money. If I was spending money, I would get some sort of ground proximity warning system. One day, that might save my life. There is a lot more ground to hit that there are other planes
The £15000 installed GA system probably isn't a whole lot better - other than offering decent integration with existing avionics like MFDs.
One problem is that this is a purely passive receiver, relying on ground radar interrogation of the Mode C/S equipment on the target, for the target to get picked up by your box. I would guess that in the UK this will be OK, since there are loads of radars around (even if a pilot cannot get a service from most of them
)However, the biggest problem with any form of TCAS is that when flying OCAS most targets are non transponding. Lots of planes don't have a transponder. Also, lots of pilots have one but choose to exercise their civil liberties
by not switching theirs on. This also enables them to bust airspace (vertically) without getting caught, which is really smart (not). This comment is based on 5 years' flying, and using a radar information service whenever available, and finding that most reported targets are "level unknown" which makes the service close to useless. Occassionally one gets a visual and sometimes the silent target turns out to be a brand spanking new plane which obviously came with a Mode C.Higher up, say 4000ft+, most targets appear to be transponding, but then the GA traffic density is orders of magnitude lower. Most UK GA moves about below 2000ft, it seems.
And if flying in CAS or airways, one gets a radar service, and everybody is supposed to have a Mode C/S transponder anyway. 99% of other traffic up there is commercial stuff, and at nonpressurised levels you will be so alone that you may not see another plane (anywhere near your level) in many flights.
I wouldn't spend the money. If I was spending money, I would get some sort of ground proximity warning system. One day, that might save my life. There is a lot more ground to hit that there are other planes
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Essex
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PCAS
D777,
I bought a Traffic Scope about 8 months ago and have found it of limited use.
It provides audio warning of other traffic which tends to make sure your heads outside trying to find it without having to look at the unit and reducing your natural lookout.
I'm surprised at the amount of low level traffic that do not appear to be Transponder equipped. All aircraft that I've flow have had 3a/c transponders.
I'm not sure that I would buy one again.
NTB
I bought a Traffic Scope about 8 months ago and have found it of limited use.
It provides audio warning of other traffic which tends to make sure your heads outside trying to find it without having to look at the unit and reducing your natural lookout.
I'm surprised at the amount of low level traffic that do not appear to be Transponder equipped. All aircraft that I've flow have had 3a/c transponders.
I'm not sure that I would buy one again.
NTB
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely the point of the Mode S comment was that everybody will then have to have a transponder with Modes A and C as well, so there should be no non-transponding traffic for it to miss?
T
T
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by IO540
However, the biggest problem with any form of TCAS is that when flying OCAS most targets are non transponding. Lots of planes don't have a transponder. Also, lots of pilots have one but choose to exercise their civil liberties by not switching theirs on. This also enables them to bust airspace (vertically) without getting caught, which is really smart (not).
by not switching theirs on. This also enables them to bust airspace (vertically) without getting caught, which is really smart (not).a) they are not taught to use ALT
b) it may be inoperative, and transponding is not yet mandatory
c) there may be an electrical load issue
d) they may just have forgotten
..and yes, some do it because they are unsure of their ability not to fly into CAS, although why, I can't imagine
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by tmmorris
Surely the point of the Mode S comment was that everybody will then have to have a transponder with Modes A and C as well, so there should be no non-transponding traffic for it to miss?
T
T
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don’t assume Mode S will be universal, the French have just exempted 8000 microlights and most of Europe will do the same.
You will find a large number of Gliders, probably non-radio and certainly not transponder equipped, above 4000 ft, some in cloud….
Rod1
You will find a large number of Gliders, probably non-radio and certainly not transponder equipped, above 4000 ft, some in cloud….
Rod1
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by NoTurningBack
D777,
I'm surprised at the amount of low level traffic that do not appear to be Transponder equipped. All aircraft that I've flow have had 3a/c transponders.
I'm not sure that I would buy one again.
NTB
I'm surprised at the amount of low level traffic that do not appear to be Transponder equipped. All aircraft that I've flow have had 3a/c transponders.
I'm not sure that I would buy one again.
NTB
Originally Posted by IO540
I wouldn't spend the money. If I was spending money, I would get some sort of ground proximity warning system. One day, that might save my life. There is a lot more ground to hit that there are other planes
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VFR aircraft collisions are pretty rare. There are some really good things out there in terms of improving lookout and actually spotting other traffic. Conditions can make a big difference but gadgets are unlikely to help. With over half of the present registered aircraft being unlikely to have transponders then the gadget is probably not the answer.
Work on your lookout - it is amazing how much you can improve it by concentrating on a good scan, working at focusing from near to far and looking for very small targets. I rarely fly in straight lines, avoid obvious honey pots and make of a point of trying to visualise where other traffic on the frequency is. I've still been surprised - but thankfully never that close.
Even if we all end up with Mode S boxes there will still need to be some other system, aircraft TCAS or ground collision warning - technology is unlikely to fix the problem.
Work on your lookout - it is amazing how much you can improve it by concentrating on a good scan, working at focusing from near to far and looking for very small targets. I rarely fly in straight lines, avoid obvious honey pots and make of a point of trying to visualise where other traffic on the frequency is. I've still been surprised - but thankfully never that close.
Even if we all end up with Mode S boxes there will still need to be some other system, aircraft TCAS or ground collision warning - technology is unlikely to fix the problem.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've personally flown with a friend's MRX PCAS. I wasn't very impressed. The fact that all you're given is a relative height and range means the target could be almost anywhere, so you're not inclined to take too much notice.
I've heard that the XRX that gives a relative position is a little better, but someone I know that used to fly with one says that it reports traffic that just doesn't exist, so again, after a while you tend to ignore it. He sold it.
Lastly I've flown in the US with a Ryan TCAD traffic sensor - a $20,000+ device which shows traffic on your MFD. It was fabulous and worked very well. However, as lots of people have said, plenty of traffic doesn't use a transponder for various reasons, so even this is far from foolproof in an environment where they're not mandatory.
On that topic I've never known an instructor that didn't recommend turning it on, to Mode C. I have known pilots who refuse to use Mode C in the case they bust CAS.
IO540 flies a lot of IFR, hence CFIT is decidedly possible. In VFR it's much less likely obviously.
I've heard that the XRX that gives a relative position is a little better, but someone I know that used to fly with one says that it reports traffic that just doesn't exist, so again, after a while you tend to ignore it. He sold it.
Lastly I've flown in the US with a Ryan TCAD traffic sensor - a $20,000+ device which shows traffic on your MFD. It was fabulous and worked very well. However, as lots of people have said, plenty of traffic doesn't use a transponder for various reasons, so even this is far from foolproof in an environment where they're not mandatory.
On that topic I've never known an instructor that didn't recommend turning it on, to Mode C. I have known pilots who refuse to use Mode C in the case they bust CAS.
IO540 flies a lot of IFR, hence CFIT is decidedly possible. In VFR it's much less likely obviously.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maders UK
Age: 57
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TCAS
Just had a BF Goodrich/L3 TCAS interfaced with the G1000 in my Mooney by Rheinland Air Service over in Germany.
On the way back to blighty in the airway I was aware of a lot of metal around that I would have otherwise missed.
I agree that it is of limited value outside of CAS but I would much rather have it than not.
SB
On the way back to blighty in the airway I was aware of a lot of metal around that I would have otherwise missed.
I agree that it is of limited value outside of CAS but I would much rather have it than not.
SB
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely the point of the Mode S comment was that everybody will then have to have a transponder with Modes A and C as well, so there should be no non-transponding traffic for it to miss?
I would check this out. I think (should damn well know, having a GTX330) that you can switch off altitude reporting on a Mode S transponder. This is bound to be done by some d1ckheads who want to be able to bust airspace vertically but who have to carry Mode S.
A transponder not returning altitude is useless for traffic avoidance purposes.
Don’t assume Mode S will be universal, the French have just exempted 8000 microlights and most of Europe will do the same.
Another reason for not spending money on TCAS then
VFR aircraft collisions are pretty rare
Rare but not zero, especially around busy GA airfields of the "free for all" type.
Practically nonexistent in IMC, presumably because so few GA pilots fly in IMC.
b) it may be inoperative, and transponding is not yet mandatory
c) there may be an electrical load issue
b) is a bit selfish IMHO. The pilot may as well paint a big finger sticking upwards on the side of his plane. c) is pretty unlikely if the thing has actually been fitted!!
So, the statistical case for TCAS is pretty poor. It's better to have a warning (assuming the direction is provided) than not, of course. I would just spend the money on a very very good GPS, not the usual piece of junk from a camping shop - that will do more for one's flying.
IF Mode C was mandatory then TCAS would be great. I think this is unlikely to happen in the UK (Mode S for all VFR traffic) because of the technical problems with equipment carriage and power.
I don't believe in a lookout being very useful. I know a lookout is one of the cornerstones of aviation (alongside dead reckoning and leather helmets and goggles) but assuming straight line trajectories a target on a true collision course will be a stationary point until it hits, so those you spotted were in fact not going to hit (no matter how close they seemed at the time). I look out very carefully for gliders, and try to fly above clouds where they won't be anyway.
I would check this out. I think (should damn well know, having a GTX330) that you can switch off altitude reporting on a Mode S transponder. This is bound to be done by some d1ckheads who want to be able to bust airspace vertically but who have to carry Mode S.
A transponder not returning altitude is useless for traffic avoidance purposes.
Don’t assume Mode S will be universal, the French have just exempted 8000 microlights and most of Europe will do the same.
Another reason for not spending money on TCAS then
VFR aircraft collisions are pretty rare
Rare but not zero, especially around busy GA airfields of the "free for all" type.
Practically nonexistent in IMC, presumably because so few GA pilots fly in IMC.
b) it may be inoperative, and transponding is not yet mandatory
c) there may be an electrical load issue
b) is a bit selfish IMHO. The pilot may as well paint a big finger sticking upwards on the side of his plane. c) is pretty unlikely if the thing has actually been fitted!!
So, the statistical case for TCAS is pretty poor. It's better to have a warning (assuming the direction is provided) than not, of course. I would just spend the money on a very very good GPS, not the usual piece of junk from a camping shop - that will do more for one's flying.
IF Mode C was mandatory then TCAS would be great. I think this is unlikely to happen in the UK (Mode S for all VFR traffic) because of the technical problems with equipment carriage and power.
I don't believe in a lookout being very useful. I know a lookout is one of the cornerstones of aviation (alongside dead reckoning and leather helmets and goggles) but assuming straight line trajectories a target on a true collision course will be a stationary point until it hits, so those you spotted were in fact not going to hit (no matter how close they seemed at the time). I look out very carefully for gliders, and try to fly above clouds where they won't be anyway.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gasax
VFR aircraft collisions are pretty rare. There are some really good things out there in terms of improving lookout and actually spotting other traffic. Conditions can make a big difference but gadgets are unlikely to help. With over half of the present registered aircraft being unlikely to have transponders then the gadget is probably not the answer.
Work on your lookout - it is amazing how much you can improve it by concentrating on a good scan, working at focusing from near to far and looking for very small targets. I rarely fly in straight lines, avoid obvious honey pots and make of a point of trying to visualise where other traffic on the frequency is. I've still been surprised - but thankfully never that close.
Even if we all end up with Mode S boxes there will still need to be some other system, aircraft TCAS or ground collision warning - technology is unlikely to fix the problem.
Work on your lookout - it is amazing how much you can improve it by concentrating on a good scan, working at focusing from near to far and looking for very small targets. I rarely fly in straight lines, avoid obvious honey pots and make of a point of trying to visualise where other traffic on the frequency is. I've still been surprised - but thankfully never that close.
Even if we all end up with Mode S boxes there will still need to be some other system, aircraft TCAS or ground collision warning - technology is unlikely to fix the problem.
(it makes it sound like I don't spot anything, I spot a hell of alot, but it only takes one that you don't spot to end in disaster)
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get one by all means, it enhances safety. But:
It only works based on reaction with transponder equipped aircraft and is designed as a complement to your lookout, not as a replacement.
It only works based on reaction with transponder equipped aircraft and is designed as a complement to your lookout, not as a replacement.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Human Factor
Get one by all means, it enhances safety. But:
It only works based on reaction with transponder equipped aircraft and is designed as a complement to your lookout, not as a replacement.
It only works based on reaction with transponder equipped aircraft and is designed as a complement to your lookout, not as a replacement.