Training fixes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Training fixes
I never really thought about this before one of the instructors down at the airfield mentioned it in a newsletter. The chaps and chapesses who come up with the RT phrasiology have played a bit of a blinder on this one. Next time you're 'temporarily uncertain of your position', pop it onto Virgin 121.5 and ask the nice people in London Centre (or Scottish Centre if you're really lost 
) for a 'Training Fix' and they'll tell you where you are.
Everyone else will think you're doing a bit of training and there's no need to admit you're lost!
) for a 'Training Fix' and they'll tell you where you are. Everyone else will think you're doing a bit of training and there's no need to admit you're lost!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Why just not admit you're lost, if you are?
I do several "training fixes" in awkward places, but I am sure to tell them my position, just in case they think I'm trying to pull a fast one, which could impinge upon someone's real PAN or MAYDAY call. Remember, the training is for both parties.
I do several "training fixes" in awkward places, but I am sure to tell them my position, just in case they think I'm trying to pull a fast one, which could impinge upon someone's real PAN or MAYDAY call. Remember, the training is for both parties.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why don't you want to admit you're lost? There's no shame in it; we all get lost sometime or another. And you'd feel a bit stupid if they couldn't give you your 'training fix' as there was a real emergency going on, and THEN you had to admit that you were lost. 
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think there are degrees of 'lostness', ranging from 'I knew where I was a couple of minutes ago' to 'I haven't got a clue'! I think it's useful to get in touch with someone in the early stages of lostness rater than carrying on and hoping it'll all work itself out. Anything that encourages people to ask earlier has to be a good thing - even if it's just for confirmation.
Just as a matter of interest, how many people here have been a bit lost, and how many of those have admitted it on air to D+D? I've never got in touch with D+D but I wouldn't say I've never been a little bit uncertain where I was? Has anyone here admitted to being lost to D+D?
Now, I'd get in touch and admit it! However in my early flying days, I think this advice would have come in very useful. It's only now that I am more experienced have I got the confidence to ask for assistance if I need it.
Just as a matter of interest, how many people here have been a bit lost, and how many of those have admitted it on air to D+D? I've never got in touch with D+D but I wouldn't say I've never been a little bit uncertain where I was? Has anyone here admitted to being lost to D+D?
Now, I'd get in touch and admit it! However in my early flying days, I think this advice would have come in very useful. It's only now that I am more experienced have I got the confidence to ask for assistance if I need it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I couldn't agree more! There's nothing that improved my enjoyment of flying more than my Garmin Pilot III. However, for that PPL student on a qualifying cross-country, a 'Training Fix' can be quite a useful trick to have in the bag.
Horse****.
Don't you dare go onto 121.5 asking for a training fix if you are in fact lost. Its dishonest and deceitful. It blocks the frequency for genuine emergencies and it makes hundreds of airliners withing 200nm turn down their monitoring of the 121.5 freq.
If I were your examiner or instructor I'd fail you as a result of your deceit AND let me tell you that I used to call London Centre on the telephone whilst my students were on short final after QXCountry of solo navex. They will tell you in the blink of an eye if your students aircraft has either used 121.5 OR is suspected of having been in airspace it shouldn't have.
Just don't do it.
I'd have all the respect in the world for a student who came in for debrief you said "actually I called 121.5 for being Lost then proceeded to destination". He'd pass and be commended.
If the student claimed he had no problems when I already knew he's used 121.5 or had bust some airspace then he'd be chopped, bollocked and made to refly the exercise.
Cheers
WWW
Don't you dare go onto 121.5 asking for a training fix if you are in fact lost. Its dishonest and deceitful. It blocks the frequency for genuine emergencies and it makes hundreds of airliners withing 200nm turn down their monitoring of the 121.5 freq.
If I were your examiner or instructor I'd fail you as a result of your deceit AND let me tell you that I used to call London Centre on the telephone whilst my students were on short final after QXCountry of solo navex. They will tell you in the blink of an eye if your students aircraft has either used 121.5 OR is suspected of having been in airspace it shouldn't have.
Just don't do it.
I'd have all the respect in the world for a student who came in for debrief you said "actually I called 121.5 for being Lost then proceeded to destination". He'd pass and be commended.
If the student claimed he had no problems when I already knew he's used 121.5 or had bust some airspace then he'd be chopped, bollocked and made to refly the exercise.
Cheers
WWW
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well obviously a student on a QXC should not be using a GPS - that's cheating.
In fact the mere mention of the possibility of thinking of getting a GPS within the earshot of an instructor, prior to getting one's PPL, is a very bad thing to do because he's likely to regard you as a bit of a smart ***e and will be watching you extra carefully.
However, a QXC is usually a well worn and easy route, done on perfect days, not requiring any accurate nav to avoid a CAS bust (because that would reflect on the instructor) and one has to do it only once per life
If I was lost, I would do a fix with two VORs. Just tune in each one, turn the knob until the bar is centred with the FROM flag showing, read off the radial off the top of the dial, and repeat for the 2nd one. Then draw the two lines on the map and see where they cross. Takes a lot less time than calling somebody on the radio, and every PPL should know how to do this (and how to track a VOR). It's REALLY EASY. Even easier with a DME
In fact the mere mention of the possibility of thinking of getting a GPS within the earshot of an instructor, prior to getting one's PPL, is a very bad thing to do because he's likely to regard you as a bit of a smart ***e and will be watching you extra carefully.
However, a QXC is usually a well worn and easy route, done on perfect days, not requiring any accurate nav to avoid a CAS bust (because that would reflect on the instructor) and one has to do it only once per life
If I was lost, I would do a fix with two VORs. Just tune in each one, turn the knob until the bar is centred with the FROM flag showing, read off the radial off the top of the dial, and repeat for the 2nd one. Then draw the two lines on the map and see where they cross. Takes a lot less time than calling somebody on the radio, and every PPL should know how to do this (and how to track a VOR). It's REALLY EASY. Even easier with a DME
Guest
Posts: n/a
When Paris was a young chap
..........he was really into his rallying (cars), and as he was too young to drive, he had to make do with playing with the maps whilst occupying the lefthand seat. I used to think that there was nothing worse than being in a rally car, on a rally and not knowing quite exactly where you were. I used to think to myself 'I'll wait til the next corner, or the one after that and I'm sure I'll be able to find out exactly where I've gone wrong'.
Well, there is something more worrying than being in that car, and it's being in an aircraft and not knowing where you are. Don't 'wait til the next corner' get on the radio and ask for assistance.
I've said in a previous thread and I'll say it agin here - the folk at D&D do a brilliant job (I visited West Drayton a while back and would recommend it to anyone - no matter how much experience you have) and will get you on your way as quickly as possible. Their concern is that you (and others who may be close by you) are safe - they do not pass judgement as to why you may have got yourself into the situation, your well being is prime!
PD
Well, there is something more worrying than being in that car, and it's being in an aircraft and not knowing where you are. Don't 'wait til the next corner' get on the radio and ask for assistance.
I've said in a previous thread and I'll say it agin here - the folk at D&D do a brilliant job (I visited West Drayton a while back and would recommend it to anyone - no matter how much experience you have) and will get you on your way as quickly as possible. Their concern is that you (and others who may be close by you) are safe - they do not pass judgement as to why you may have got yourself into the situation, your well being is prime!
PD
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An ex-member of our group told me that on his QXC, he became unsure of position somewhere between Bristol and Exeter, so seeing a farmer in a field, landed. He trotted over, asked where he was (farmer more than happy to help, apparently) and took off again.
Didn't occur to him that a rut in the field may take the nose wheel off or all the other risks involved. Gives him cold sweats these days.
The impetuosity of youth, I suppose
Didn't occur to him that a rut in the field may take the nose wheel off or all the other risks involved. Gives him cold sweats these days.
The impetuosity of youth, I suppose
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 415 Likes
on
218 Posts
"Don't you dare go onto 121.5 asking for a training fix if you are in fact lost. Its dishonest and deceitful. It blocks the frequency for genuine emergencies and it makes hundreds of airliners withing 200nm turn down their monitoring of the 121.5 freq."
WWW,
For once I can't agree with your sentiment. Although it might not be strictly kosher, it's far better for someone on to call early on 121.5 if uncertain of position. If it's NOT already a "genuine emergency", it has the potential to turn into one very soon!
A timely call might well prevent an inexperienced pilot suffering an airspace bust, or an AIRPROX.
The training fix is actually for D&D's benefit too, of course.
The only problem is that a refused TF may require the pilot to go back on the radio "cap in hand" and admit he IS now not "Training" after all...
What say D&D?
BTW, If I get a bit lost I drop down to 50 feet and read the road signs
WWW,
For once I can't agree with your sentiment. Although it might not be strictly kosher, it's far better for someone on to call early on 121.5 if uncertain of position. If it's NOT already a "genuine emergency", it has the potential to turn into one very soon!
A timely call might well prevent an inexperienced pilot suffering an airspace bust, or an AIRPROX.
The training fix is actually for D&D's benefit too, of course.
The only problem is that a refused TF may require the pilot to go back on the radio "cap in hand" and admit he IS now not "Training" after all...
What say D&D?
BTW, If I get a bit lost I drop down to 50 feet and read the road signs
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I definately have to agree with WWW on this one. If you are lost, then tell someone and get out of it. We've all had times when we were 'temporarily unsure of our position.'
Just admit it and use the service as it was designed for.
Do you think making false 999 calls is acceptable too?
Just admit it and use the service as it was designed for.
Do you think making false 999 calls is acceptable too?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you think making false 999 calls is acceptable too?
The 999 service does not.
Therefore it's not fair to compare the two. Apples & Oranges come to mind.
I agree with Sky Torque. Best to own up and admit your problem. But if using the word training in the call, makes some people make the call, where they otherwise wouldn't, then it's better than them not making the call at all.
dp
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A training call is just that, pretending that you aren't lost when you are is about as unprofessional as you can get.
If people can't admit that they are lost because of their ego's, then I'd rather thay weren't sitting in the cockpit of an a/c. Ego kills more people in flying than anything else.
No-one is going to slap your legs if you get lost and to be honest with the general standard of navigation skills in PPL-land I'm amazed D and D aren't snowed under continually.
Use the system corrrectly or fill your a/c with GPS's so you always have a backup rather than relying on hoodwinking an excellent system. Failing that, learn how to navigate properly in the first place and then keep it up.
If you are genuinely lost, then D&D can offer you all sorts of help that you may not realise you need. If you pretend that you are training, then this help won't be as forthcoming.
Again, use it correctly, or don't use it at all.
If I caught any of my students or members playing this game, they'd get a kicking of monumental proportions.
If people can't admit that they are lost because of their ego's, then I'd rather thay weren't sitting in the cockpit of an a/c. Ego kills more people in flying than anything else.
No-one is going to slap your legs if you get lost and to be honest with the general standard of navigation skills in PPL-land I'm amazed D and D aren't snowed under continually.
Use the system corrrectly or fill your a/c with GPS's so you always have a backup rather than relying on hoodwinking an excellent system. Failing that, learn how to navigate properly in the first place and then keep it up.
If you are genuinely lost, then D&D can offer you all sorts of help that you may not realise you need. If you pretend that you are training, then this help won't be as forthcoming.
Again, use it correctly, or don't use it at all.
If I caught any of my students or members playing this game, they'd get a kicking of monumental proportions.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 6th Sep 2005 at 23:33.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The problem on here is that some people insist on making everything so black and white.
We have WWW and SAS bollocking students for deceit and comparisons with false calls to 999, which is plainly illogical, since they are a criminal offence whereas failing to be aware of one's position as a PIC and seeking help is plainly not.
Yes, if you are lost, call D&D immediately, state the situation and ask for assistance.
If you are not lost, you won't need to.
But what about that uncertain feeling that low hour PPLs sometimes get, sure they planned the flight meticulously and are maintaining a solid VFR flight log, BUT maybe the weather is a little different to plan and that affects the view out of the window and makes it harder to triangulate the position. OR the winds aloft are stronger/weaker than forecast and the drift correction angle "feels wrong?"
Strictly speaking, the pilot is not lost, but there is some concern creeping into the edge of consciousness, starting to affect his/her ability to manage the workload.
Under those circumstances, a training fix is completely appropriate and sensible, because (a) it is providing training for D&D, (b) it is providing training for the PPL in consolidating his/her position under more challenging circumstances and (c) it may well avoid a more dangerous situation such as a CAS bust
WWW and SAS, you should reflect seriously on the merits of your postings and the impact on the low houred PPLs who read these threads and are influenced by such postings.
For the record, in 1996 with the princely total of 115 hrs, I found myself in a situation where I was starting to become concerned about position, due to the masking effect of wx and also a seriously stronger wind aloft. By taking a training fix over ground without many features, I was able to re-orient myself, safeguard against busting the Stansted zone and navigate safely back home. Whirly, had D&D declined the training fix, I would have escalated to an emergency, since the unavailability of the training fix would have made the situation more serious.
Now if you wish to argue with me about my decision, feel free to, but I called D&D afterwards, explained what happened, thanked them and was told that it was a completely appropriate use of the service.
We have WWW and SAS bollocking students for deceit and comparisons with false calls to 999, which is plainly illogical, since they are a criminal offence whereas failing to be aware of one's position as a PIC and seeking help is plainly not.
Yes, if you are lost, call D&D immediately, state the situation and ask for assistance.
If you are not lost, you won't need to.
But what about that uncertain feeling that low hour PPLs sometimes get, sure they planned the flight meticulously and are maintaining a solid VFR flight log, BUT maybe the weather is a little different to plan and that affects the view out of the window and makes it harder to triangulate the position. OR the winds aloft are stronger/weaker than forecast and the drift correction angle "feels wrong?"
Strictly speaking, the pilot is not lost, but there is some concern creeping into the edge of consciousness, starting to affect his/her ability to manage the workload.
Under those circumstances, a training fix is completely appropriate and sensible, because (a) it is providing training for D&D, (b) it is providing training for the PPL in consolidating his/her position under more challenging circumstances and (c) it may well avoid a more dangerous situation such as a CAS bust
WWW and SAS, you should reflect seriously on the merits of your postings and the impact on the low houred PPLs who read these threads and are influenced by such postings.
For the record, in 1996 with the princely total of 115 hrs, I found myself in a situation where I was starting to become concerned about position, due to the masking effect of wx and also a seriously stronger wind aloft. By taking a training fix over ground without many features, I was able to re-orient myself, safeguard against busting the Stansted zone and navigate safely back home. Whirly, had D&D declined the training fix, I would have escalated to an emergency, since the unavailability of the training fix would have made the situation more serious.
Now if you wish to argue with me about my decision, feel free to, but I called D&D afterwards, explained what happened, thanked them and was told that it was a completely appropriate use of the service.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 7th Sep 2005 at 06:21.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not ask the agency you are already talking to to help, assuming they are appropriatly equipped-as a radar controller it is unbelievably easy to find someone who is lost, and assuming you arent a million miles away takes about 5 seconds if you have a transponder, maybe 20 secs if you dont. paperwork will not be filled in if you ask for help, no one is going to ring the CAA and tell them you had to ask for help; and as already stated above it`s not illegal to get lost-busting CAS though is illegal - so ask for help early if at all unsure.
(apologies for spelling,it is early!)
(apologies for spelling,it is early!)
Horse****.
If you don't KNOW where you are then you are LOST. Its not tricky, difficult or hard to understand.
What you emphatically are not is in need of is a Training Fix.
A Training Fix is what I the instructor ask for in the process of teaching you the student how to contact 121.5 in accordance with the the LOST procedure. You are not entitled to use it. Or in this case abuse it.
D&D can and do have a different repsonse to a Training Fix call and a Lost call.
The information given by them to a Training Fix call tends to be of a less detailed nature particularly if they are busy. They possibly won't add in extras such as 'beware of controlled airspace 3 miles to you 2 o' clock'. They may not ask about endurance or other things and will assume an instructor is on board.
You are also skewing the statistics of D&D calls.
D&D has to justify its expense and if a significant chunk of its workload is falsely thought to be training and not actual help work then this weakens the funding arguments for D&D.
Plus I have to monitor 121.5 every working day. I have no problem with the r/t calls I might miss or have to be repeated because someone in their Piper is suddenly lost. I have a big moral problem though if they are asking for a training fix, being denied, then asking for real.
Occupying 121.5 is a serious business there are THOUSANDS of ears on that frequency at the same time as being on the frequency controlling them.
I'd make it an offence for anyone without an FI Rating to ask for a training fix. In fact I am writing to the CAA SRG today to ask for that to become a UK rule.
There is NO harm in using 121.5 if you are lost and there never has been and nobody cares least of all the CAA. Every PPL should be taught that.
Mind you though that VFR nav is supposed to be just that. Its no good only being safe IF you can use the navaids and 121.5 because I've had total electrical failure 3 times in 1500hrs of light aircraft flying. Twice through failed Alternators and one through electrical smoke and having to turn everything off.
Its mk1 Eyeball, the map and some confidence in what you are doing that will save your life in that situation.
Not cheaty weasley tricks and lies.
Cheers
WWW
If you don't KNOW where you are then you are LOST. Its not tricky, difficult or hard to understand.
What you emphatically are not is in need of is a Training Fix.
A Training Fix is what I the instructor ask for in the process of teaching you the student how to contact 121.5 in accordance with the the LOST procedure. You are not entitled to use it. Or in this case abuse it.
D&D can and do have a different repsonse to a Training Fix call and a Lost call.
The information given by them to a Training Fix call tends to be of a less detailed nature particularly if they are busy. They possibly won't add in extras such as 'beware of controlled airspace 3 miles to you 2 o' clock'. They may not ask about endurance or other things and will assume an instructor is on board.
You are also skewing the statistics of D&D calls.
D&D has to justify its expense and if a significant chunk of its workload is falsely thought to be training and not actual help work then this weakens the funding arguments for D&D.
Plus I have to monitor 121.5 every working day. I have no problem with the r/t calls I might miss or have to be repeated because someone in their Piper is suddenly lost. I have a big moral problem though if they are asking for a training fix, being denied, then asking for real.
Occupying 121.5 is a serious business there are THOUSANDS of ears on that frequency at the same time as being on the frequency controlling them.
I'd make it an offence for anyone without an FI Rating to ask for a training fix. In fact I am writing to the CAA SRG today to ask for that to become a UK rule.
There is NO harm in using 121.5 if you are lost and there never has been and nobody cares least of all the CAA. Every PPL should be taught that.
Mind you though that VFR nav is supposed to be just that. Its no good only being safe IF you can use the navaids and 121.5 because I've had total electrical failure 3 times in 1500hrs of light aircraft flying. Twice through failed Alternators and one through electrical smoke and having to turn everything off.
Its mk1 Eyeball, the map and some confidence in what you are doing that will save your life in that situation.
Not cheaty weasley tricks and lies.
Cheers
WWW
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or a battery powered GPS???
I can appreciate where you are coming from WWW (although your language doesn't help your argument).
But I'm afraid we will have to differ.
While I agree completely that we should always admit to our problems, the simple reality is that some people won't. If using the word training makes them more likely to ask for help in time, then so be it. It's better than them not asking for help.
This is not just a GA problem. There have been examples of commercial airlines running out of fuel, yet refusing to declare a mayday. One in NY comes to mind, but I have read about others.
I'd be interested to see the reply you get from the CAA. Any chance you'd publish it here, along with the letter you are sending them?
dp
I can appreciate where you are coming from WWW (although your language doesn't help your argument).
But I'm afraid we will have to differ.
While I agree completely that we should always admit to our problems, the simple reality is that some people won't. If using the word training makes them more likely to ask for help in time, then so be it. It's better than them not asking for help.
This is not just a GA problem. There have been examples of commercial airlines running out of fuel, yet refusing to declare a mayday. One in NY comes to mind, but I have read about others.
I'd be interested to see the reply you get from the CAA. Any chance you'd publish it here, along with the letter you are sending them?
dp
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The other prblem with WWW's suggestion would mean that people couldnt practise using D&D post qualification - I seem to rememeber some material coming from D and D a while back asking for people to call them for their own training. I'm sure they are quite capable of telling people to bog off if they are busy with real emergencies.
I do agree though that if you are lost you shouldn't use a training fix; but human nature is what it is.
I do agree though that if you are lost you shouldn't use a training fix; but human nature is what it is.