Wrong-way downwind joins
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wrong-way downwind joins
Imagine the scene. You enter the zone at some regional airfield with (say) the field to the North of you, and the runway in use is 36. Therefore, you are in effect positioned automatically for a straight-in to final approach.
However, this is a busy field (Class D), and there's no chance you'll be given a direct approach. Instead, ATC tell you to "join downwind right for runway 36" : which means you have to then fly parallel to the runway heading, wide, all the way up to the crosswind position, then a 180 turn inside onto downwind before turning base etc ... or does it ?
These joins are handed out at my regional airport frequently, and I've always just thought of it as something for ATC to do with the little guys while they get the jets in and out. Hey ho, it's more comfortable than orbiting, I guess. But am I actually doing the right thing ? In these circumstances, is there a prescribed place to actually "join" the downwind leg ? Is it at the crosswind end, or will the middle do ... ??
I appreciate this is hardly a vitally important topic, and that I could just ask ATC, but I'm bored this morning, so ...
FF
However, this is a busy field (Class D), and there's no chance you'll be given a direct approach. Instead, ATC tell you to "join downwind right for runway 36" : which means you have to then fly parallel to the runway heading, wide, all the way up to the crosswind position, then a 180 turn inside onto downwind before turning base etc ... or does it ?
These joins are handed out at my regional airport frequently, and I've always just thought of it as something for ATC to do with the little guys while they get the jets in and out. Hey ho, it's more comfortable than orbiting, I guess. But am I actually doing the right thing ? In these circumstances, is there a prescribed place to actually "join" the downwind leg ? Is it at the crosswind end, or will the middle do ... ??
I appreciate this is hardly a vitally important topic, and that I could just ask ATC, but I'm bored this morning, so ...
FF
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds odd to me. At our Class D regional airfield and at most I have been to you would be asked to join (and if necessary hold) on right or left base.
Is there some noise abatement requirement or other local reason for not doing this?
Is there some noise abatement requirement or other local reason for not doing this?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forget that, even if you were approaching a not so busy A/G radio type airfield and you were in a similar position, the instructor would expect you to carry out the full joining procedure even if it added 5-6 minutes to the landing time. Generally, I'd say as long as your opposite downwind leg is outside the ATZ there is no problem. Of course do so well above circuit height!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: South of France
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is exactly the scenario you can be faced with at Duxford if approaching from the East for the westerly runway (24 ?). You can't join overhead (not allowed) and you can't descend deadside (isn't one) so you have to track parallel and then sort of 180 yourself onto downwind at about crosswind.....
You just have to be careful that you don't stray too far south into Stanstead.
Of course, if you had been given a "straight-in" because the circuit is clear then you wouldn't have to..but that's part of another thread
You just have to be careful that you don't stray too far south into Stanstead.
Of course, if you had been given a "straight-in" because the circuit is clear then you wouldn't have to..but that's part of another thread
Last edited by strake; 27th Jun 2005 at 11:41.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How can there not be a deadside? In this scenario, a deadside join would be the same as a downwind RH join for 18, but above circuit height, then descending crosswind to join downwind RH for 36 at circuit height?
SSD
SSD
There's no deadside when there are other operations on that side.
Old Sarum has no deadside in the week, due to Boscombe circuit being the other side.
Sywell has no deadside due to helicopter operations on the other side of the active runway.
I'm sure that there are others out there.
(N.B. For American pilots deadside = upwind).
G
Old Sarum has no deadside in the week, due to Boscombe circuit being the other side.
Sywell has no deadside due to helicopter operations on the other side of the active runway.
I'm sure that there are others out there.
(N.B. For American pilots deadside = upwind).
G
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And equally at many "bigger" class D airports, both sides may be in use at the same time....i.e. someone joining downwind RH for 26 at the same time as someone joining downwind for 26 LH.
Also, there may be a jet circuit at a higher altitude, EGHH for example have a turbojet circuit at 1500', so try an overhead join and you may meet a Falcon coming at you....
Also, there may be a jet circuit at a higher altitude, EGHH for example have a turbojet circuit at 1500', so try an overhead join and you may meet a Falcon coming at you....
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 50
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would request a join for base leg. Safer than flying against the traffic. Even wide is not always safe - you must have seen some of the "bomber-command" circuits from light aircraft! Here, as indicated, a join at the nearest corner of the circuit, or straight in subject to traffic if convenient, would always be offered.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Send clowns
All very well at some of the larger fields. At Popham or Compton on a busy day, you'll just get the message 'Your discretion, but the circuit is very busy'
Barging in at base/finals is almost the worst thing to do when the circuit is very active as you will have no idea where everyone is.
Much safer to take your time and fit in with the traffic
All very well at some of the larger fields. At Popham or Compton on a busy day, you'll just get the message 'Your discretion, but the circuit is very busy'
Barging in at base/finals is almost the worst thing to do when the circuit is very active as you will have no idea where everyone is.
Much safer to take your time and fit in with the traffic
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 50
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robin
In Class D must obey the controller, hence my comment about requesting. You can't truly request anything except information from the A/G or AFIS at a small airfield, as they have no right to clear you or prevent you doing as you decide is proper!
In those cases you put, with a busy circuit I would join overhead, quiet I would join as convenient, but I have a fair amount of experience - overhead is generally safer if anyone is in doubt at an uncontrolled airfield.
In Class D must obey the controller, hence my comment about requesting. You can't truly request anything except information from the A/G or AFIS at a small airfield, as they have no right to clear you or prevent you doing as you decide is proper!
In those cases you put, with a busy circuit I would join overhead, quiet I would join as convenient, but I have a fair amount of experience - overhead is generally safer if anyone is in doubt at an uncontrolled airfield.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My first though would be to join in line with the upwind end of the runway - in other words, the same position from which you'd normally report "downwind".
But then my second thought is that if there is a reason for this, it's best to ask ATC. And if there isn't a reason, then ask (over the r/t) for a base join instead.
Then I had a third thought, which was that maybe an American style 45-degree join would comply with ATCs requirements, and would be quite neat? (It's worth pointing out, though, that the 45-degree join is actually illegal, since in the right hand circuit which ATC asked for it would involve a left turn. Still, this doesn't seem to bother the thousands of Americans who use it every day.)
I don't really know the answer, though. I'd be interested to hear the view of a controller at the airfield in question.
FFF
-------------
But then my second thought is that if there is a reason for this, it's best to ask ATC. And if there isn't a reason, then ask (over the r/t) for a base join instead.
Then I had a third thought, which was that maybe an American style 45-degree join would comply with ATCs requirements, and would be quite neat? (It's worth pointing out, though, that the 45-degree join is actually illegal, since in the right hand circuit which ATC asked for it would involve a left turn. Still, this doesn't seem to bother the thousands of Americans who use it every day.)
I don't really know the answer, though. I'd be interested to hear the view of a controller at the airfield in question.
FFF
-------------
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: CYQT
Age: 54
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At our place (NW England Cat D Regional Airfield), anyone VFR inbound who is approaching from an upwind position joins "downwind", anyone approaching from a downmind position joins on "base leg".
Eg Westerly Ops 27 in use wind 300/10 (both left and right ccts always available - no deadside).
Join the CTR NW of the field - join right downwind
Join the CTR SE of the field - join left base.
Join the CTR E of the field - route north of the 27 final approach (follow the M62 in this case) until abeam base leg and then turn left to join right base.
Works very well, pass the relevant traffic info to all concerned and let them get on with it.
I personally would not want inbound traffic fly against the flow and trying to find a gap to turn back in, recipie for disaster if you ask me....
Eg Westerly Ops 27 in use wind 300/10 (both left and right ccts always available - no deadside).
Join the CTR NW of the field - join right downwind
Join the CTR SE of the field - join left base.
Join the CTR E of the field - route north of the 27 final approach (follow the M62 in this case) until abeam base leg and then turn left to join right base.
Works very well, pass the relevant traffic info to all concerned and let them get on with it.
I personally would not want inbound traffic fly against the flow and trying to find a gap to turn back in, recipie for disaster if you ask me....
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Culdrose (twenty+ years ago, when there were operational and training RW and FW squadrons in number) had no deadside as it operated simultaneous R and L hand circuits. Sounds chaotic, but it worked fine, even with solo tyros with <20 RW hrs.
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 50
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spitoon
There is really no point in an overhead join at an airport with class D zone. The tower should tell you of all relevant traffic, and you should not put yourself in conflict unless you are visual and can take responsibility for avoiding action. There is no signal square, so both the points of an overhead join are removed!
In fact it can be more dangerous, as crossing traffic often goes through at 2000', and can be less predictable than circuit traffic.
There is really no point in an overhead join at an airport with class D zone. The tower should tell you of all relevant traffic, and you should not put yourself in conflict unless you are visual and can take responsibility for avoiding action. There is no signal square, so both the points of an overhead join are removed!
In fact it can be more dangerous, as crossing traffic often goes through at 2000', and can be less predictable than circuit traffic.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slightly off topic, but I visited an airfield the other day which was talking about deadside joins - this turned out to be what I had been taught as crosswind joins.
IE approach from the deadside, cross the runway over the upwind numbers (at circuit height), and turn onto downwind - are the 2 terms completely interchangeable? Or is there something slightly more subtle that I don't appreciate.
IE approach from the deadside, cross the runway over the upwind numbers (at circuit height), and turn onto downwind - are the 2 terms completely interchangeable? Or is there something slightly more subtle that I don't appreciate.
