Barton Happening.................
Join Date: Apr 2005
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"Just the opposite is happening and not helped by the appearance of Ravenair Flying School, now in residence with cheaper rates."
You will find that if you look at the other costs incurred with Ravenair on top of the aircraft hire rate(a/c hire rate + landing + airfield utilisation fee + VAT) is actually more expensive than Lancashire Aero Club (a/c higher rate + landing fee NO VAT)
You will find that if you look at the other costs incurred with Ravenair on top of the aircraft hire rate(a/c hire rate + landing + airfield utilisation fee + VAT) is actually more expensive than Lancashire Aero Club (a/c higher rate + landing fee NO VAT)
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Robinrider
Yes and No. The way I read it is there is only one cake and that now has to be split between two flying schools. Whereas before one had the whole cake to itself (and ran at a loss). This could get even more interesting if a rumoured third operator starts up in the near future undercutting the other two by offering aircraft at even lower rates. Which means that an LAC flying member could claim his free landings using cheaper hired a/c.
LAC no longer (or at least at this point in time) provide PPL package deals. Probably because they got stung when they tried to charge existing students seperate landing and circuit fees from April 1st when BAOL took over the running of the airfield. The LAC chairman tried to charge the package paid students for these extras, though eventually relented under threat of legal action for breach of contract. LAC has had to absorb these additional charges. Presumably they are now juggling the figures for new students.
Do both charge £240 for membership? No. Read the multimembership rates on the download page at the ravenair.co.uk web site. One area where a PPL LAC member will benefit will be the use of the members car parking area when the new barriers/pay for parking etc. comes into effect shortly.
LAC Student membership rate is £180 pa, but the student does have to pay all landing and circuit fees. A 150 landing fee is £10+vat. The LAC £240 rate is for exisiting PPL members and includes landing & circuit fees. Though I gather this may all change next membership renewal year as the story goes the chairman has seriously underestimated the figures when buying the block movements off MSCD for the current LAC membership year.
We all agree that Barton is a good place for GA in the Manchester area, in fact THE ONLY PLACE, however many LAC members are not burying their heads in the sand and proclaiming everything to be rosie, as is the LAC/BAOL Chairman (conflict of interest there).
Having a second flying school on the airfield can surely only generate more business for the Airfield as a whole ?
LAC no longer (or at least at this point in time) provide PPL package deals. Probably because they got stung when they tried to charge existing students seperate landing and circuit fees from April 1st when BAOL took over the running of the airfield. The LAC chairman tried to charge the package paid students for these extras, though eventually relented under threat of legal action for breach of contract. LAC has had to absorb these additional charges. Presumably they are now juggling the figures for new students.
Do both charge £240 for membership? No. Read the multimembership rates on the download page at the ravenair.co.uk web site. One area where a PPL LAC member will benefit will be the use of the members car parking area when the new barriers/pay for parking etc. comes into effect shortly.
LAC Student membership rate is £180 pa, but the student does have to pay all landing and circuit fees. A 150 landing fee is £10+vat. The LAC £240 rate is for exisiting PPL members and includes landing & circuit fees. Though I gather this may all change next membership renewal year as the story goes the chairman has seriously underestimated the figures when buying the block movements off MSCD for the current LAC membership year.
We all agree that Barton is a good place for GA in the Manchester area, in fact THE ONLY PLACE, however many LAC members are not burying their heads in the sand and proclaiming everything to be rosie, as is the LAC/BAOL Chairman (conflict of interest there).
niknak
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Enigma
If you are registered to pay VAT, you are obliged by law to charge it, if you aren't you don't have to.
It simply puts the Barton problem into perspective, it isn't viable as an airfield which purely depends on G/A as it's income. Along comes an outfit capable of running it as a viable enterprise if fees are raised to a realistic commercial level and G/A can't cope with the realities of life.
VAT on fuel, and life in general is a problem you should be raising with Mr Blair and is not the doing of the providers of suppliers.
Sod sentiments and "how it was in my day", wake up to reality or go somewhere else.
If you are registered to pay VAT, you are obliged by law to charge it, if you aren't you don't have to.
It simply puts the Barton problem into perspective, it isn't viable as an airfield which purely depends on G/A as it's income. Along comes an outfit capable of running it as a viable enterprise if fees are raised to a realistic commercial level and G/A can't cope with the realities of life.
VAT on fuel, and life in general is a problem you should be raising with Mr Blair and is not the doing of the providers of suppliers.
Sod sentiments and "how it was in my day", wake up to reality or go somewhere else.
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"If you are registered to pay VAT, you are obliged by law to charge it, if you aren't you don't have to."
The point I am making is that at LAC VAT is not charged on training or a/c hire due to a VAT exemption.
Dog's Bone
Suggest you check your info regarding landing charges to LAC Student's they get a reduced rate rather than the £10 + VAT.
Student members will also benefit from the free parking.
The point I am making is that at LAC VAT is not charged on training or a/c hire due to a VAT exemption.
Dog's Bone
Suggest you check your info regarding landing charges to LAC Student's they get a reduced rate rather than the £10 + VAT.
Student members will also benefit from the free parking.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Still Cheaper than Golf Club Membership !! & I enjoy Barton , don't be upset with change !! It can be OK long term.....Time will tell of course !!
I'm not a golfer !! ( best balls i ever hit was when i stood on a rake !) but i'm assuming ( never assume I know !) It'scheaper at Barton.
EL
I'm not a golfer !! ( best balls i ever hit was when i stood on a rake !) but i'm assuming ( never assume I know !) It'scheaper at Barton.
EL
Last edited by Established Localiser; 3rd Aug 2005 at 22:29.
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Yes memebership is a lot cheaper than a Golf Club. But then compare what one gets in return.
Also once you've payed you can play to your hearts content, but in Flying there are significant user costs each time you take a club a/c up. Thats the difference.
Change is good, agreed but it is difficult to accept when change is regarded as for the worse.
Having been associated with Barton for 30+ years and contributed to what it had become; it hurts deeply to see the spirit of the place so diminished.
I've alsways said the LAC can meet in a Pub if necessary but once BArton is gone its gone. I beleive it has been changed so radically since Peel took over that it is already not recognisable as a club field.
Shaggy is right. Those that were comfortable with the situation need to find somewhere else to indulge themselves leaving Salford International and all who want that type of airport to carry on.
Sir George Cayley
Also once you've payed you can play to your hearts content, but in Flying there are significant user costs each time you take a club a/c up. Thats the difference.
Change is good, agreed but it is difficult to accept when change is regarded as for the worse.
Having been associated with Barton for 30+ years and contributed to what it had become; it hurts deeply to see the spirit of the place so diminished.
I've alsways said the LAC can meet in a Pub if necessary but once BArton is gone its gone. I beleive it has been changed so radically since Peel took over that it is already not recognisable as a club field.
Shaggy is right. Those that were comfortable with the situation need to find somewhere else to indulge themselves leaving Salford International and all who want that type of airport to carry on.
Sir George Cayley
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Its fair enough saying everything was fine and barton should have been left as it was.
Truth is, if Barton was to carry on in any form things had to change. I believe its a little bit harsh directing all the bad feeling towards LAC and BAOL, these are the people who trying their hardest to make the place work.
As Established Localiser said give it time, things can and will get better, on the face of it the place is alreay looking better, it appears money is actually being reinvested into the airfield.
Just my 2 cents...
PG
Truth is, if Barton was to carry on in any form things had to change. I believe its a little bit harsh directing all the bad feeling towards LAC and BAOL, these are the people who trying their hardest to make the place work.
As Established Localiser said give it time, things can and will get better, on the face of it the place is alreay looking better, it appears money is actually being reinvested into the airfield.
Just my 2 cents...
PG
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Dog's Bone Quote: "We all agree that Barton is a good place for GA in the Manchester area, in fact THE ONLY PLACE"
There is MSF at Manchester International. I recently "defected" there from Barton and finding it not that much more expensive to rent as a PPL. It has a much more personal feel, compared to being just a number at Barton. There is also a buzz about operating from there and the hold times aren't as bad as people make out. Membership is cheaper, availability is better and they don't charge for cancelling at short notice.
There is MSF at Manchester International. I recently "defected" there from Barton and finding it not that much more expensive to rent as a PPL. It has a much more personal feel, compared to being just a number at Barton. There is also a buzz about operating from there and the hold times aren't as bad as people make out. Membership is cheaper, availability is better and they don't charge for cancelling at short notice.
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Barton is a pilot's playground. You can nip down there and have a tea and chat in the clubhouse. You can drag your aeroplane out, squint at the sky, then go and have another tea if sky looks non too good. If wx improves, you can fire-up, fly around the local area checking out the conditions, and if it looks good, go off somewhere. If it's grotty, land back and have a bacon butty. Or do a few circuits, PFLs, whatever.
No matter how friendly and efficient a large-airfield based flying school is, it can't offer that. You turn up, you fly or not, you go home.
Not the same sort of experience at all.
I've enjoyed this delightful pilot's playground, full of enthusiasts and interesting aeroplanes, for getting on for 30 years. If it goes, I'll miss it deeply but at least I will have enjoyed it. The guys coming into flying will never know what they missed. If it can be saved in anything like it's present form, it must be!
SSD
No matter how friendly and efficient a large-airfield based flying school is, it can't offer that. You turn up, you fly or not, you go home.
Not the same sort of experience at all.
I've enjoyed this delightful pilot's playground, full of enthusiasts and interesting aeroplanes, for getting on for 30 years. If it goes, I'll miss it deeply but at least I will have enjoyed it. The guys coming into flying will never know what they missed. If it can be saved in anything like it's present form, it must be!
SSD
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Here Here SSD !!
I love the convienience & the atmosphere, the changes were inevitable & progress & Investment should not be shunned !
Although this "members only" for the Clubhouse In my view is not good.
Let Family's come and enjoy Aviation it creates dreams for young kids , so what if they buy a drink and a meal in the clubhouse !
As a Young Aviation Mad Kid I used to ride up to Barton Spotting ! and watch the pilots just jump in their planes and go ! ( I think Ginj was with us on occasions!)
I flew from Manchester Airport as well many times! and really enjoyed it , but it is a whole different ball game than Barton ! Can't knock it though I loved flying from Manchester just as much as I love flying from Barton.
As SSD said just to turn up and go for a Bimble one evening with very little restriction is priceless ! I did exactly that last night !
EL
I love the convienience & the atmosphere, the changes were inevitable & progress & Investment should not be shunned !
Although this "members only" for the Clubhouse In my view is not good.
Let Family's come and enjoy Aviation it creates dreams for young kids , so what if they buy a drink and a meal in the clubhouse !
As a Young Aviation Mad Kid I used to ride up to Barton Spotting ! and watch the pilots just jump in their planes and go ! ( I think Ginj was with us on occasions!)
I flew from Manchester Airport as well many times! and really enjoyed it , but it is a whole different ball game than Barton ! Can't knock it though I loved flying from Manchester just as much as I love flying from Barton.
As SSD said just to turn up and go for a Bimble one evening with very little restriction is priceless ! I did exactly that last night !
EL
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I joined LAC some months ago having had very good reports on how great it was in years gone by. The members seem friendly and some of the groups are very good. As far as the rest is concerned, I found the service poor, with long delays and some strange attitudes. I would say I was treated very much like a number and given the cost I will not be renewing my membership, but I wish them all the best with avoiding Peel extracting every penny and then closing it down.
Rod1
Rod1
