Barton Happening.................
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helicopter-redeye
My postings have served merely to answer people's questions and suggestions. With respect to many who have posted, they seem to be fresh out of school, new kids on the block, meaning they have no idea what has taken place in the past to get to the current situation. Everything so far suggested has been research and looked into many times over many decades by people who have been around a lot longer than you and were prepared to put their own money into securing Barton's future, only to run up against one political brick wall after another.
Until the final outcome of current discussions taking place between LAC and Peel are known and placed before the membership in the next month or two, then there is little more to be said. Aviation activities will continue at Barton in the immediate future, long term is crystal ball gazing.
This doesn't preclude anyone looking for alternatives of course and that includes farm strips. If you wish to enlarge said farm strips to training standard (i.e. licensed) as Cessna 1 Plate wants, then you need to talk to the appropriate planning authorities who are never too keen - again people have been there, done that, but weren't given any tee shirts. Nothing to stop you trying. Good luck!
My postings have served merely to answer people's questions and suggestions. With respect to many who have posted, they seem to be fresh out of school, new kids on the block, meaning they have no idea what has taken place in the past to get to the current situation. Everything so far suggested has been research and looked into many times over many decades by people who have been around a lot longer than you and were prepared to put their own money into securing Barton's future, only to run up against one political brick wall after another.
Until the final outcome of current discussions taking place between LAC and Peel are known and placed before the membership in the next month or two, then there is little more to be said. Aviation activities will continue at Barton in the immediate future, long term is crystal ball gazing.
This doesn't preclude anyone looking for alternatives of course and that includes farm strips. If you wish to enlarge said farm strips to training standard (i.e. licensed) as Cessna 1 Plate wants, then you need to talk to the appropriate planning authorities who are never too keen - again people have been there, done that, but weren't given any tee shirts. Nothing to stop you trying. Good luck!
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NW potential airfields
How about Samlesbury, near Preston?
Good motorway links, owned by BAe I think. There seem to be a few motorgliders that use it at weekends (air experience flights?)
Good motorway links, owned by BAe I think. There seem to be a few motorgliders that use it at weekends (air experience flights?)
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Dog's Bone
Thanks for the resume of the current position. You have captured the issues well and added to the sum of my knowledge.
The frustrating thing is that there apears to be little the local flying community can do.
I know there are a lot of pilots looking for farmers fields and thinking of STOL tpe aircraft. Should Barton become non-viable as a GA field catering for the middle ground of recreational flying then fragmentation seems the likely outcome.
Very sad as its unique atmosphere would be lost. (I think its already damaged)
Ah well stamp collecting and embroidery have their attractions...
Sir George Cayley
The frustrating thing is that there apears to be little the local flying community can do.
I know there are a lot of pilots looking for farmers fields and thinking of STOL tpe aircraft. Should Barton become non-viable as a GA field catering for the middle ground of recreational flying then fragmentation seems the likely outcome.
Very sad as its unique atmosphere would be lost. (I think its already damaged)
Ah well stamp collecting and embroidery have their attractions...
Sir George Cayley
Re. other airfields
The old airfield at Burscough (near Ormskirk) is being developed around the edges but the airfield is still largely intact but needs a major clean up to accept aircraft but it may already be too late,
And Samlesbury is owned by BAe Systems but the RAF volunteer gliding school effectively "squats" there and does any maintainance itself through the RAF.
New building work for the JSF and Typhoon means that the days of this airfield are numbered too. Its already separated from the main site by a new perimeter fence across the airfield.
And Samlesbury is owned by BAe Systems but the RAF volunteer gliding school effectively "squats" there and does any maintainance itself through the RAF.
New building work for the JSF and Typhoon means that the days of this airfield are numbered too. Its already separated from the main site by a new perimeter fence across the airfield.
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Despite it being D-Day, it seems that it is not all sweetness and goodwill in the LAC boardroom. The arrogance of the Chairman has come to the fore yet again and he has ousted the company secretary and alienated other committee members. All this has taken place without the membership having a say in how their money is accounted for, no doubt this will make for an interesting AGM in April, but it's too late by then.
A two year airfield management agreement has been signed today between MSDC/Peel and the new operating company Barton Aerodrome Operations Ltd.
You really have to hand it to Peel the way they have manipulated the situation.
A two year airfield management agreement has been signed today between MSDC/Peel and the new operating company Barton Aerodrome Operations Ltd.
You really have to hand it to Peel the way they have manipulated the situation.
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I am about to get a share in an aircraft based at Barton. I am not yet a member and I have only a passing understanding of what has been going on. Who are MSDC and will all based aircraft owners still have to join the club?
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Rod1
MSDC is Manchester Shipcanal Development Company.
You have asked some interesting questions the answers to which will be learnt in the coming weeks. So the following is presented to you as a guide only, as the goal posts are moving all the time.
One figure for LAC membership currently doing the rounds suggests fees to be set at £250 per year, which will include a landing contract for unlimited landings. Everyone agrees that this is a good deal as it is not much more than is presently being paid. The LAC member will not notice much difference,
where it will hit the wallet is the increase in hangarage/parking. LAC income will be hit as the landing contract element will be passed to MSDC/Peel and not pocketed by LAC, so a drop in revenue income there. The annual membership fee has always cross subsidized the loss making flying school and to a certain extent propped up engineering.
LAC (seperate from the new management company) has taken out a two year lease on all hangars and the clubhouse. Hangarage rent in the main hangar is expected to be almost doubled and to be in the region of £2800-£3000 per year. If you are acquiring a share in a hangared aircraft then you will have to join LAC to use their hangars.
Outside parking fees are presently £50 p/m for a C172. This could well be doubled. This will be paid to MSDC/Peel via the airfield management company. Those wishing to park outside are not required to join LAC and will pay landing fees as they occur or presumably will be able to negotiate a contract.
Ask yourself if you need the facilities of a clubhouse and how many landings you might make, at a price not yet known, the assumption being that £125 of the £250 will be the landing contract, maybe the LAC membership route could be the best option. Alternatively maybe a social membership for clubhouse use might be worth considering. As I say the membership has been kept in the dark and none of the above is set in concrete, but that is the best anyone knows at this point in time. All will be revealed shortly as the present LAC lease terminates in 3 weeks. If possible I would advise you to wait until the end of the month when the new annual LAC subscriptions will be announced. Sorry I can't help further.
MSDC is Manchester Shipcanal Development Company.
You have asked some interesting questions the answers to which will be learnt in the coming weeks. So the following is presented to you as a guide only, as the goal posts are moving all the time.
One figure for LAC membership currently doing the rounds suggests fees to be set at £250 per year, which will include a landing contract for unlimited landings. Everyone agrees that this is a good deal as it is not much more than is presently being paid. The LAC member will not notice much difference,
where it will hit the wallet is the increase in hangarage/parking. LAC income will be hit as the landing contract element will be passed to MSDC/Peel and not pocketed by LAC, so a drop in revenue income there. The annual membership fee has always cross subsidized the loss making flying school and to a certain extent propped up engineering.
LAC (seperate from the new management company) has taken out a two year lease on all hangars and the clubhouse. Hangarage rent in the main hangar is expected to be almost doubled and to be in the region of £2800-£3000 per year. If you are acquiring a share in a hangared aircraft then you will have to join LAC to use their hangars.
Outside parking fees are presently £50 p/m for a C172. This could well be doubled. This will be paid to MSDC/Peel via the airfield management company. Those wishing to park outside are not required to join LAC and will pay landing fees as they occur or presumably will be able to negotiate a contract.
Ask yourself if you need the facilities of a clubhouse and how many landings you might make, at a price not yet known, the assumption being that £125 of the £250 will be the landing contract, maybe the LAC membership route could be the best option. Alternatively maybe a social membership for clubhouse use might be worth considering. As I say the membership has been kept in the dark and none of the above is set in concrete, but that is the best anyone knows at this point in time. All will be revealed shortly as the present LAC lease terminates in 3 weeks. If possible I would advise you to wait until the end of the month when the new annual LAC subscriptions will be announced. Sorry I can't help further.
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Lead by example
LAC Membership has been announced as £240 with unlimited landings including use of the clubhouse and the car park, the latter to become a pay & display wheel clamping area in due course when security fencing is erected together with airside access gates. So generally a good deal for flying members, as previously reported.
The real surprise is Student membership which has been set at a reduced fee of £180 but the student will now have to pay for each landing and circuit. Seems a backward step if you want to encourage people to fly from Barton, when it is already cheaper to fly from Liverpool.
Hangarage is increasing by 50% no vat. Outside parking has, as rumoured, been increased 100% + vat.
The LAC flying school will now be paying rent and outside parking. Flying school aircraft were always hangared free. Similarly those aircraft leased in and deemed to be on the school fleet previously enjoyed free hangarage/parking. Those owners will now have to put their hands in their pockets or sort something out in the leasing rates agreed with the school. Either way flying school rates may have to be increased, even though the Chairman has stated they will not be.
It now remains to be seen if members and students vote with their feet. Aircraft have left already, and others will be departing now the new rates are known. Will there be any to take their place? If there were, they would already be here.
The chairman's master plan is leaking like a sieve. Many members want to know why he did not have the courtesy to consult the membership before hastily signing agreements with MSCD/Peel.
As to leading by example, rumours circulating suggest that the chairman's grouped Cessna 172 could be moving to Liverpool where rates are reported to be cheaper. The new company secretary has already moved his aircraft to Ashcroft.
LAC Membership has been announced as £240 with unlimited landings including use of the clubhouse and the car park, the latter to become a pay & display wheel clamping area in due course when security fencing is erected together with airside access gates. So generally a good deal for flying members, as previously reported.
The real surprise is Student membership which has been set at a reduced fee of £180 but the student will now have to pay for each landing and circuit. Seems a backward step if you want to encourage people to fly from Barton, when it is already cheaper to fly from Liverpool.
Hangarage is increasing by 50% no vat. Outside parking has, as rumoured, been increased 100% + vat.
The LAC flying school will now be paying rent and outside parking. Flying school aircraft were always hangared free. Similarly those aircraft leased in and deemed to be on the school fleet previously enjoyed free hangarage/parking. Those owners will now have to put their hands in their pockets or sort something out in the leasing rates agreed with the school. Either way flying school rates may have to be increased, even though the Chairman has stated they will not be.
It now remains to be seen if members and students vote with their feet. Aircraft have left already, and others will be departing now the new rates are known. Will there be any to take their place? If there were, they would already be here.
The chairman's master plan is leaking like a sieve. Many members want to know why he did not have the courtesy to consult the membership before hastily signing agreements with MSCD/Peel.
As to leading by example, rumours circulating suggest that the chairman's grouped Cessna 172 could be moving to Liverpool where rates are reported to be cheaper. The new company secretary has already moved his aircraft to Ashcroft.
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Don't think I'll be renewing this year........based on my useage (renting a PA28 for a double slot once a month) it's now the same cost as flying from Manchester, even with the landing fees and Liverpool is now 3/4 of the cost.
I suspect rising costs is going to drive other regulars away, which is such a shame, but as flying is such an expensive hobby in this country, any saving helps.
Is this the beginning of the end of Barton as we know it? There has been lots of speculation about Peel's future plans for the site, but could the price increases be a way of killing off the airfield slowly leaving way for the bulldozers?
I suspect rising costs is going to drive other regulars away, which is such a shame, but as flying is such an expensive hobby in this country, any saving helps.
Is this the beginning of the end of Barton as we know it? There has been lots of speculation about Peel's future plans for the site, but could the price increases be a way of killing off the airfield slowly leaving way for the bulldozers?
Better red than ...
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could the price increases be a way of killing off the airfield slowly leaving way for the bulldozers
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£240 flying membership including free landing, free car park and the option to spend money in the club house is not such a good deal. For example; Tatenhill membership £35, landings free (two hard r/w’s), car parking free, club house free. Tatenhill is 1h30m by car from Barton.
Have to say I think Barton is a great place, with some very interesting aircraft, but Peel will kill it given time.
Have to say I think Barton is a great place, with some very interesting aircraft, but Peel will kill it given time.
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As to leading by example, rumours circulating suggest that the chairman's grouped Cessna 172 could be moving to Liverpool where rates are reported to be cheaper. The new company secretary has already moved his aircraft to Ashcroft.
Dont know where this rumour originates from but there has never been any discussion concerning relocation of our a/c!
Please, Dog's Bone if you have anything to report concerning events at Barton ensure that it is factual. Otherwise it just kind of detracts from the validity of your other reporting.
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Rod 1
Sounds like heaven!
Small Rodent
Fair enough. In mitigation dozens of people have heard the same story. It would appear that the (known) originator is one of your group members, who has clearly stated that enquiries had taken place with Liverpool. Apart from that, I know no more than what you seem to do.
Sounds like heaven!
Small Rodent
Fair enough. In mitigation dozens of people have heard the same story. It would appear that the (known) originator is one of your group members, who has clearly stated that enquiries had taken place with Liverpool. Apart from that, I know no more than what you seem to do.
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I suspect rising costs is going to drive other regulars away, which is such a shame,
Is this the beginning of the end of Barton as we know it? There has been lots of speculation about Peel's future plans for the site, but could the price increases be a way of killing off the airfield slowly leaving way for the bulldozers?
Is this the beginning of the end of Barton as we know it? There has been lots of speculation about Peel's future plans for the site, but could the price increases be a way of killing off the airfield slowly leaving way for the bulldozers?
Rising costs have already driven a number of regulars away from Barton, a few more are getting ready to vacate the field, others are looking. Blackpool is becoming the hot favourite.
Costs at Barton are now set to rocket. From 1st April Barton has been run as though it were a major airport with all the attended high operating costs that that brings.
At the end of the day Barton is still a grass field operating in daylight hours with no navigation facilities and hangars which leak. The whole lot does need bulldozing, but would it ever be rebuilt to serve GA and what would the costs be then? But for the prices now being asked, people can and are going elsewhere and are finding that it can be cheaper than staying at Barton.
The BAOL staff have reportedly granted themselves pay rises roughly ranging £2000-6000+, for doing the same job. LAC/LPL staff not transferred to the new company are not getting any increase and are pi$$ed off. Air traffic control is reported to be costing around £150,000 a year with two new positions being created of Airfield Duty Officers each on an annual salary of £21,500. All this and more has to be paid for in the long run by income generated by the airfield users. MSCD have agreed to reimburse the running costs of the airfield, but as with Sheffield, will presumably only stand the losses for a set time. MSCD/Peel is not a charity. Hope no one has taken out a long term mortgage on the strength of their new job.
Figures being banded about indicate that MSCD/Peel need to get around £600,000 pa. To this end the resident businesses are having to dig deep. The two helicopter operators are earmarked to pay around £17,000-£25,000 pa each. The microlight school also a high figure. LAC flying school now has to find around £75,000 and the engineering department is reported to be up for £10,000 as airfield utilization - for taxiing aircraft around on the grass, as someone said.
LPL Ltd is loosing around £20,000 per month, a fact admitted by the Treasurer. The company is trading insolvent as also admitted by the Treasurer.
Now where is that Report on Barton's viability? In fact let's save them the trouble. It ain't financially viable and what's more MSCD/Peel already know that.
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So Barton isn't viable. It probably never was, but for those of us who've enjoyed it as our playground for the last quarter century or more it is painful when someone comes along and takes it away.
What the comittee need to do - in fact what they should have done as soon as theis bleedin obvious writing was first put on the wall by Peel - is find a new home for LAC. Not at all easy I grant in these nimby times, but Derby did it when their base of Burnastan became a car factory.
SSD
What the comittee need to do - in fact what they should have done as soon as theis bleedin obvious writing was first put on the wall by Peel - is find a new home for LAC. Not at all easy I grant in these nimby times, but Derby did it when their base of Burnastan became a car factory.
SSD
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Interesting news is that another flying training organisation is planning to move into Barton. This will put added pressure on LAC who have had the exclusive use of the airfield for over half a century. Now for the first time there will be competition for student training etc. etc.
The LAC Treasurer resigned shortly after the AGM in mid April. The new Company Secretary has also resigned and is no longer a member of LAC.
Aircraft continue to depart to pastures new. A rough tally of membership renewals, which were due by end of April, is suggesting that approximately 300 members have voted with their feet: if true then a sizeable loss of income.
The LAC Treasurer resigned shortly after the AGM in mid April. The new Company Secretary has also resigned and is no longer a member of LAC.
Aircraft continue to depart to pastures new. A rough tally of membership renewals, which were due by end of April, is suggesting that approximately 300 members have voted with their feet: if true then a sizeable loss of income.
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In business no one likes change !!
Although sometimes it can be a good thing (don't tell the Man U Fans)
Maybe just maybe investment may turn into a good thing, after all, the options visiting Manchester by air are limited if you take away Barton.
The next 2 years are crucial I reckon, maybe it will make a few quid !! & Peel may invest into it's future.
As for a potential flying school starting up GREAT ! why should one school have the monopoly, they will all have to raise their game .......good news for students i reckon !!
EL
Although sometimes it can be a good thing (don't tell the Man U Fans)
Maybe just maybe investment may turn into a good thing, after all, the options visiting Manchester by air are limited if you take away Barton.
The next 2 years are crucial I reckon, maybe it will make a few quid !! & Peel may invest into it's future.
As for a potential flying school starting up GREAT ! why should one school have the monopoly, they will all have to raise their game .......good news for students i reckon !!
EL
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Another LAC committee member has resigned reportedly due to a conflict of procedures between the Chairman of LAC/LPL and his airfield management company BAOL. This resignation was followed last week by the resignation of the new Treasurer, after only 3 months in the job!!!
LAC/LPL continues to run in a heavy loss situation, now reported to be well in excess of the previously admitted £20,000 per month and this in the height of the summer when it was hoped losses would diminish with more flying occurring. Just the opposite is happening and not helped by the appearance of Ravenair Flying School, now in residence with cheaper rates.
LAC/LPL continues to run in a heavy loss situation, now reported to be well in excess of the previously admitted £20,000 per month and this in the height of the summer when it was hoped losses would diminish with more flying occurring. Just the opposite is happening and not helped by the appearance of Ravenair Flying School, now in residence with cheaper rates.
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Bearers of bad news.
A free market is one of the many virtues of the Great British economy. Having a second flying school on the airfield can surely only generate more business for the Airfield as a whole?
It seems there are a few individuals who are resentful of change. One can certainly empathise, it has been 'thier' club for years, only to have the rug 'pulled from under thier feet'. However Change is not always a bad thing. There seems to be a growing trend at the moment to almost take glee in reporting bad 'Barton happenings'.
So what if another flying school has moved onto the field? Healthy competition should stimulate both schools into providing the best instruction for new pilots?
The accountants at Ravenair certainly are not stupid. If anything the growth of a new school on the field can only be a signal that the airfield's future is more secure than some would have you believe. Why on Earth would Ravenair, a successful school based at several Northwest Airports, risk so much by establishing a new base at an aerodrome, which as some ppruners seem to indicate, is dwindling?
Barton is a wonderful place, for GA in the Northwest it is second to none, I sincerely hope it will continue to thrive.
It seems there are a few individuals who are resentful of change. One can certainly empathise, it has been 'thier' club for years, only to have the rug 'pulled from under thier feet'. However Change is not always a bad thing. There seems to be a growing trend at the moment to almost take glee in reporting bad 'Barton happenings'.
So what if another flying school has moved onto the field? Healthy competition should stimulate both schools into providing the best instruction for new pilots?
The accountants at Ravenair certainly are not stupid. If anything the growth of a new school on the field can only be a signal that the airfield's future is more secure than some would have you believe. Why on Earth would Ravenair, a successful school based at several Northwest Airports, risk so much by establishing a new base at an aerodrome, which as some ppruners seem to indicate, is dwindling?
Barton is a wonderful place, for GA in the Northwest it is second to none, I sincerely hope it will continue to thrive.