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Newcastle Aero Club

Old 13th Dec 2004, 13:39
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The following was addressed, in all innocence I am sure, to JO and MA
Assuming you are now reading, I reiterate that I am not faulting your work or suggesting any wrongdoing on your part. However, I wonder if would you care to make a public statement as to whether in 10 years you believe there have been some dodgy goings on with the bookkeeping (eg two books, strange expenses, occasions you were asked to turn a blind eye etc). In reality you are of course hardly likely to say yes if you believe it to be the case for your own protection - however if you come out and catagorically say No, then maybe it might help us to determine if all we are doing is infact chasing non-existant ghosts. Help us out guys - we all want to get to the bottom of this.
I think given the abuse they have been subjected to on this forum, even if they had something to say, they would do so to the administrators and not to PPRUNE. I know I would keep completely silent in their shoes.

Littlewings
Being unable to see any fundamental reason for the increasing losses you detail in recent years (other than possibly a smaller fleet and two bad summers reducing work), I can only attribute the losses to a failure to invoice work on a massive scale.
During the period where losses mounted the cost of sales actually exceeded the turnover, which seems quote an acheivement. If there was heaps of uninvoiced work then, assuming there was any record of the work, the value of this work ought to have been included as an asset in the accounts. There is some work in progress and other trade debtors but not enough. I wonder if anyone actually knows who needs invoicing and for what?

What is probably the most difficult figure in the whole accounts is the £182,084 which the Aero Engineering Business owed to its parent company, the Aero Club at 28/02/2003.

I am not an accountant, but these are not the accounts of a healthy company. A question I would pose to anyone who was a board member of the parent company, and in particular to the directors of the engineering business itself, is why was this situation allowed to develop, and to continue to develop?

Going back to the £182,084 owed by Engineering to the Club, of course this figure is shown in the Club as an asset. So with the balance sheet showing a value on the club of around £415k, we should understand that £182k of this was pretty illusory.

In greater detail:

Tangible Assets were

Planes and equipment £197,726
Land and Buildings £ 62,826
Fixtures and Fittings £ 24,204

Total Fixed Assets £ 284,757

Current Assets were

Stock and W.I.P £ 2,072
Cash £15,828
Other debtors £15,058
Owed by Engineering £182,084

Total Current Assets £215,042

Total Assets £499,799

less working capital and all liabilities of £84,571

gives a balance of £415,228 as the value of the club.

So.. around 44% of the value of our club was bound up in an engineering business which had little hope if any of ever paying back its parent company.

Now, assume that the engineering business can't pay the bills, the net assets of the club reduce to more like £233,000. And with the various debts that exist, it's easy to see why the club is verging on insolvency.

One final point; I understand there's a mortgage of £60k on RH. I can't see this in the accounts. Again, I am not an expert on reading accounts, but either this is debt incurred since 28 Feb 2003, or I am not reading the accounts right.

Last edited by dde0apb; 13th Dec 2004 at 13:56.
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Old 13th Dec 2004, 13:46
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Aero Club

newcastlepilot:

Great posting, I refer to your paragraph regarding old committee of Danielson/McLeod/Prentice & Gilmour.

I am one of those and anybody who knows me will verify that I have never tried to hide the fact that I was proud to have served on the Aero Club committee.

I was elected chairman of house-sub committee. A duty which I enjoyed immensely.

I was involved in the self financing decoration of the bar/rest area when it was done and was pleased with the results.

To say we "hit upon something" is probably an understatement.
Each monthly meeting would be the same scenario - the deposed treasurer reading his financial statement which made no sense at all. I always tried to make it my business to find out exactly what was going on but I was always shown a "closed door".

The final straw was at a meeting when treasurer K. Todd read out a statement claiming innocence in any wrong doing financially, this was followed up by Chairman Danielson informing him that he was under investigation by Special Branch. As I have always presented myself as honest I resigned with immediate effect as I felt extremely uneasy about what was going on.

As I stated earlier, I always conducted myself in a honest manner and anybody that knows me would surely voutch for that.

I have also had lengthy dialogue with RMT administrators about the present situatuation.

But certainly like Barry Lawson, myself and and others felt like we might aswell not be around.

I am open to crtitisism like anybody should be and I do feel a certain amount of "collective responsibility" because of what has happened but this would never make me run away from any responsibility I have.

Cheers

M

Guys

As a folow up to the pathetic annonymous phone call I have just recieved since my last posting.

I have never played my cards "close to my chest" or tried to hide the fact I was a committee member albiet for a short time, also - it certainly wasn't newcastlepilot's last posting that caused me to "show my hand".

I have worked harder than most with Elia to keep all members informed as well as providing him with information that other people quite simply could not have provided.

To that idiot who just phoned me - I wonder how we stack up against each other morally?

Cheers

M

Last edited by TOPJET973K; 8th Jan 2005 at 20:42.
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Old 13th Dec 2004, 17:15
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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Devil Last Posts

Gent's.

Sorry but the knives seem to drawn against certain individuals, if they have something of use to RMT it certainly should not be discussed in open forum and we cannot expect them to do so.

Stick together people !!!

One thing of interest to Ncl Pilot, look through the financial statement from the AGM and look at the wage bill for NAE. I think he made as much in overtime as his wage "obtaining money by deception " comes to mind given the same old defects on the same aircraft .
G-NELI is a classic example I defected it for its current fault on a number of ocassions, he signed it of as ok. Then when he finds out he is out of a job he informs the CAA. Another reprobate from Gill courtesey of BB no doubt..

Regards all.......
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Old 13th Dec 2004, 17:56
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On another forum someone asked where did the aircraft dissapear to over the weekend? I hadn't noticed them gone, but if so, where to?
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Old 13th Dec 2004, 18:07
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The planes should be in the old Gill Air hangar. The airport authority didn't want to 'lose control' over where the planes were being held.
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Old 13th Dec 2004, 19:31
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Unhappy

I understand the feelings behind all the criticism that has been posted on this forum.
I have also discovered, with some dismay, that anonymous letters have been sent, some making scurrulous accousations of a very personal nature...whoever has doen this should be highly ashamed of such purile behaviour...I would have though better of all those I know who attend the Aero Club.
But for the sake of a Club we all love and want to save, couldn't we all try to pull together to get the Club out of the mess it is in and leave all the criticism till after the Administrators have investigated what's gone on?
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Old 13th Dec 2004, 20:01
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Devil To:NCL Pilot

Understood !

We are all getting a little bent out of shape (just being human )

I will rumour that his overtime was more than his salary,as this was what was mentioned to me by a well informed individual and the conversation went something like " all that money for sitting on his laurels ". I can only echo this statement as everytime I had the dubious pleasure of speaking to him he was playing on the internet . No doubt contributing to the excessive phone bill.

Maybe LH could shed light on the figures as that person did the accounts but may not wish to join in so to say !!!!

Cheers all
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Old 13th Dec 2004, 20:43
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Mu Beta,

I agree with your comments, and I don't.

As you can see this whole business is a very emotive subject and something has gone very wrong at our club. I might lose the chance to rent an aircraft and go flying...............some people stand to lose a great deal more than that. Why should that be?

I note that this is your first post and I thank you, but lets be very clear, if a proposal is not forthcoming/accepted then the administrators can do what they like..............it will all be too late and everyone has been shafted.

PD
 
Old 13th Dec 2004, 21:05
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Paris Dakar
I do agree with you...lots of us will not be able to fly,several innocent people will also lose their jobs...that's why I think we need to try to make some suggestions instead of going for recriminations.
But I do think we should all condem the anonymous stuff that's going about...it does no good at all.
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Old 13th Dec 2004, 21:13
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Mu Beta,

I will PM you - this will help to keep the forum free from slanging matches.

PD
 
Old 13th Dec 2004, 23:06
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If any of you "People" had money (not your £75 membership) tied up in either the Club or the Engineering business then I can sympathise with you. If it is as I suspect however, and none of you did then please stop blowing hot air through your ring pieces.
And for those of you who have belatedly admitted to having held seats on the board and have decided to turn queens council well once again I'm sorry but to me this appears to be a smoke and mirrors trick. What do they say about criminals? Oh yeah, they always revisit the scene of the crime.
The Engineer you are refering to is a good friend of mine, a top class engineer, a professional who was just trying to earn a crust and now finds himself out of a living through no fault of his own. To hear you lot going on about something you most patently know sod all about just makes my blood boil. The anonymity that you believe a PPRUNE username gives you is a falsehood so don't be feeling too smug and secure by hiding behind it posting your poisonous allegations on here. Just a bit of friendly advice from one member to some others.

Lets be careful out there folks.
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Old 13th Dec 2004, 23:54
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Lh doing the accounts

I should point out that LH didn't do the accounts.
LH's involvement was just to try to sort things out and give a clearer picture of the financial situation, given very little information was forthcoming to help in htis task.

On the matter of clearing things up too...it's my recollection that KL continued to fly on a part-time basis for the club while working for Gill...I'm sure I flew with him when he was in uniform...so when Gill went under, he wasn't actually re-employed, he just re-assumed the CFI responsibilities (though I don't know anything about salaries)
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Old 14th Dec 2004, 00:37
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Newcastle Aero Club

Members

Just read the remainder of todays postings.

We badly need to keep level heads in all this, things ARE starting to get a bit nasty. While emotions are running high and tempers are at boiling point we need to stick together and remain strong for the good of our club.

Please ladies and gents - lets get the thread back on track and work together.

HST. To add to your post - SK is an extremely good engineer and sorted our fleet when it was "falling to bits". I'm not in a position to comment on his salary package simply because I don't know.
Any good tradesman offered a good package will not turn it down so SK is really hardly to blame if thats the right word.

MB. Here here - I've just echoed your words.

Once again folks - lets "drop the gloves" and think ahead to better things - PLEASE.

Thanks

M
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Old 14th Dec 2004, 08:36
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Topjet,
Couldn't agree more...at this stage we should leave the recriminations to one side and try to save our club, and support anyone else who has the same aim.
Let us think about the other stuff once we're up and running again (fingers crossed).
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Old 14th Dec 2004, 11:28
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Newcastle Upon Tyne Aero Club

Dear Members:

I can only echo the sentiments of members desires to keep things clean - too many personal attacks recently (of which I have made myself).

For the good of our club and everything else lets stick together and hopefully in the near future we can all enjoy a beer in the club while the designated authorities deal with anybody found guilty of wrong doing.

Good luck

BB
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Old 14th Dec 2004, 12:08
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Newcastle pilot said
Sorry, I might have missed something obvious - but I can see from your first post the value of Aero Engineering from the Aero Club's point of view had declined to -106K (ie Eng owes Club 106K) at the end of 2003 - so how does this become 182k in your second post. Are we saying the figures in the two company's accounts don't tally.
"Shareholders funds" in the company - ie total assets less total liabilities - show as -£106k. But the total debt to the parent company - the club - is £182k. The difference is a small amount of other debt, and the company's assets. The question is whether these assets could be turned into cash if necessary. If they could, then the number (at 28/02/03) would be £106k; if any of them could not be turned into cash then the number will be somewhere between £106k and £182k.

Assets were given as

Stock and w-i-p       16,734
Trade debtors         27,963
Bank account           1,578
Other debtors         13,258
Plant and vehicles    35,180
Fixtures and fittings    760
Intangible assets      1,501

Total                 96,974

If any of this - or rather the current figures - could not be turned into cash then more of the debt will be unrecoverable - or the the club will have to wait until the engineering company is in healthy profit.
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Old 14th Dec 2004, 12:43
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Devil Previous posts

Hi All

HST
I hear what you are saying and can only speak as I find.
Brake fluid dripping on my feet in flight on one ocassion and to find the same fault 2 days later urepaired and signed off as fit to fly says it all (I declined to fly it on that ocassion) G-KART:

Take JV flown by many with faulty ammeter/non charge. I will say no more.

We are all entitled to our own opinion's and yes we are all getting peeved but certain individuals have milked NAC.

Please correct me if wrong was SK not handed a KL like contract by Mr Butcher at above normal rate ?

Regards.......
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Old 14th Dec 2004, 12:55
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I must admit talk of aircraft problems may not have much to do with the grand scheme of things, but you mention JV and the ammeter problem. I flew JV once. This problem WAS NOT in the tech log but once airborne showed it's head. After landing back I put it in the tech log to be asked why had I done it?!

On other occasions as a new ppl still being heavily influcenced by certain people I was advised not to enter certain problems into the tech log as they needed the plane later. Of course i've learned not to listen...

G-WK - With everything crossed for a happy outcome to all of this - I need to get flying soon!
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Old 14th Dec 2004, 15:58
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Devil G W K

Well said,your last statement

All things aside it is flying at an affordable cost and a decent social outlet ( minus any committee) is what we all want and without the hangers on this may be acheivable.

c152/ pa28/ c172/ does it matter so long as it is safe clean and tidy it's got wings it will fly !

Regards All
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Old 14th Dec 2004, 16:37
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HF(A)
Now then, not wanting to stray off track again but your previous post begs a few answers. With a mighty 100 hours under your belt , I'm sure I dont have to tell you that there are many kinds of defects. Some of them may immediately effect the airworthiness of the aircraft and therefore the aircraft is grounded until they are rectified. Others may be assessed as allowable but with restrictions placed on the operation of the aircraft eg VFR flight only or No night flying (faulty electrical system indication) until the defect can be rectified. Others have no impact at all on the operation of the aircraft and therefore the aircraft can be flown as normal pending rectification of the defect. The means to judge the airworthiness implications of the particular defect lie within the MEL and AMM. If, using these criteria to judge whether or not a minor leak from a brake cylinder was serious enough to ground the aircraft, the engineer deemed it to be an immediate airworthiness item, then the aircraft would have been grounded with all the implications that would have had to the club's income ie grounded aircraft = no income. If the engineer had, using the same criteria judged it to be allowable, then it would have made sense for the defect to be deferred until such time as spares and/or ground time were available to rectify it. By all means it is your duty to report any defects but it is the engineers judgement in interprepting the defect using the relevant publications, to either rectify or defer as appropriate. Of course you are also free to either accept or reject the aircraft but, the engineer has fulfilled his obligations in declaring the aircraft airworthy.
To answer your other question, I'm sure that he was offered the going rate for a Licensed (Chief) Engineer in a GA environment.

Last edited by HiSpeedTape; 14th Dec 2004 at 17:07.
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