Whirlybird

I can almost hear the gasps of horror...Whirly, you don't know, and you an instructor; what is the GA world coming to?

OK, so you look in the VFR Flight Guide, and almost every airfield says PPR. So, Prior Permission Required. Simply, isn't it?

Well, no, it's not. Some say PPR by telephone. Some say PPR by telephone or radio. Well now, I'm not likely to land without calling up on the radio, am I? And I've never flown in anywhere non-radio, but if I did, I think I'd call up first. Wouldn't anyone...pilots who fly aircraft without radios, please tell me.

So, I phone up. It's good practice anyway - you find out if for some reason they're closed, or if there's some unforecast fog around, for instance. Sometimes you're told it's OK, and asked for your callsign, other times told to just call on the radio, other times they seem absolutely amazed that you've called at all!

Then comes the day you call up, and get no reply. So you fly in anyway, figuring you'll call up on the radio. Well, one flying school owner I know protests vehemently about people doing this: "It says we're PPR; why don't they phone first?". Another time I actually landed, having got no reply on the radio, and got yelled at. Other airfields even say in flight guides that they fine you if you arrive non-PPR. Still others don't give a damn.

And if you change your mind, or divert...some phone your departure airfield to find out what happened if you don't call them, while others wonder why you even bothered to phone to say you weren't coming after all.

So everyone, and particularly any airfield operators, flying school owners, flight guide publishers, or similar....

WHAT DOES PPR REALLY MEAN?

Johnm

PPR means what it says and if you can't raise them on the phone (or radio if they offer that option) then you haven't got it and you can't go.

I should think they'd let you off in an emergency or weather divert though.

FlyFreeWbe

But surely PPR is losing its meaning nowadays? An actual experience went something like:

"Hi! I'd like to land at you aerodrome today if that's ok"
"Sure no problem. What time are you thinking?"
"Um, about 12, 12:30"
"Great! See you then!"
<click>
".....uh...hello?..."

Sorry for not answering your question Whirly, but it seems to me that they would want to know as much about the incoming aircraft as possible, its call sign for example. How else would they know who to get mad at for landing without permission?

Imo, PPR is just ink on paper for some places..

Chilli Monster

So, following on from that:

You decide to fly to the airfield where I work, not having phoned beforehand. You turn up to find a 747 blocking the runway doing pre-planned engine runs, which had you called before you would have known about.

Still think it's losing its meaning? PPR means just that - Prior Permission REQUIRED. If you phone and they're not interested in taking your details then fine - you've fulfilled your side of the contract. If you don't get an answer then you don't go - or you have a fallback in case you get refused.

(And Whirly knows this - a certain 'farm' if memory serves right? )

WestWind1950

Some fields have certain restrictions and are not "open to the public", thus "PPR". The restrictions can run from type of aircraft allowed or only for local club members. The owner then decides whether he can allow you to come or not. It's his decision.
His field may also have a certain number of "non-local" flights allowed, i.e. max. 100 per year, so, if you're the number 99 he may also want to reject your request.
The fields may also have restricted opening hours due to neighbors, or there may have to be someone present for your landing and no one is available, then it's no-go. Another reason could be the grass being mowed, the asphalt being repaired, or other such stuff.
So, there may be times when they just say, "sure, come on over" and other times when they say "sorry, not today!".

PPR just means it's the owners discretion if he allows you to land or not.

Westy

Keef

PPR means, quite simply, that you phone before you go.

If they say "Sure, come on over", or ask for your details, or are surprised that you bothered at all - then no problem.

Some places I've phoned have asked for details, such as number of hours, ratings, experience and so on, and then given me a number to use on the radio call.

Then there's that airfield that asked pilot's name, and on being told said "YOU aren't coming in here, chum!" [Hi, Chilli ]

I recall there used to be another category called PPO which was a sort of aggressive PPR, but I haven't seen that lately. Perhaps it was a feature of a different flight guide.

drauk

Keef, there are (plenty of?) places that are listed as PPR in a flight guide which, as far as I know, don't require you to PHONE them, rather just get permission to land, which I think is what whirly was on about. Cambridge for example - obviously they might say no by radio, if for instance they are in the situation Chilli Monster describes, but there is no requirement to telephone them.

side-saddled

We're PPR at my Aerodrome.
This basically means that we want you to ring us before you set off, and someone will take all your details. Callsign, type, departure aerodrome, POB, fuel and endurance and also how long your staying for and whether you require a refuel.

Calling on the radio is not really good enough but we'll let you come in if you do providing we're not too busy.
You'll also get a polite reminder when paying.

There are several reasons for this that I can think of:

1) We have very limited parking space and if your staying for a long period of time we will park you in a different position than if your here for a one hour stop and fuel.

2) It gives our controllers a very good idea of what to expect in traffic loading levels so they don't get caught short with a sudden influx of private pilots.

3) If you don't turn up or have a incident on the way, we can start overdue action and get someone to come and possibly save your life.

4) We can tell you about any unserviceabilities and bad weather before you set off. (Had a lot of these recently!!!!!)

5) We know you've actually bothered looking in the AIP and know a little about our aerodrome layout and traffic patterns.
There's nothing worse than a pilot reading back your instructions then flying straight through your busy circuit because they haven't got a clue where they should be and almost causing an accident.

6) If you have a radio fail on the way and suddenly turn up rocking your wings, we will know who you are and be able to gear up our fire section in case you have another emergency other than just a radio failure.

So if it says PPR ring up first, if they don't sound bothered then you've fuffilled your part of the bargin, but most of us appreciate that extra bit of effort and will find out as much as we can about your flight before you set off.

Needless to say if you've got an emergency, that all goes out of the window and we'll go to any length to try and help you get on the ground safely whether you haven't phoned or didn't even call on the radio.

Whirlybird

I obviously haven't really explained what I meant.

All of the above is fine and sensible. But there are the airfields which say that all they meant was that you should call up on the radio. And the ones which when you do visit say: "Well, I know it says PPR, but we don't really care. Come in whenever you like".

The point I was attempting to make is that PPR has acquired so many different meanings that it's very confusing. I can see some people don't think so, and that's fine. But don't you think it would make more sense if they said "PPR by phone", "PPR by radio", or whatever they actually mean, or leave it off if they don't want it.

I phone up anyway, if at all possible, to make sure everything's OK. I think it's a good idea. But that's not actually the point.

Monocock

PPR = Prior Permission Required.

If that's telephone, email, letter or pigeon I don't think it makes any difference. The owner / operator of the strip wishes to know that you will be arriving. If the email, letter or phone call isn't answered, you are not welcome. If the pigeon doesn't return you are also not welcome.

I must say I am confused by this thread

WestWind1950

Whirly,

I think the problem is, these fields might not NEED the phone call all the time, only some of the time... which means you can TRY just calling in by radio and that'll be fine. But it may happen, if you depend on that, that they'll say no, for whatever reason, and then you find you don't have a proper alternate. So, call in by phone if possible, but you can of course TRY just by radio and if it works, all the better!

You should notice in the AIP, that the PPR is listed for almost all "special airfields" ... at public fields usually after OT (other times... i.e. other then the regular opening hours).

Westy

englishal

Its just another way for us to be anal about flying in the UK (like considering the danger of eating a chocolate bar in the cockpit ).

If an airfield doesn't really give two hoots about your details, then why list as PPR, just give the opening times. It'd make life much easier, and would mean we could "lets land there, I need a piss and a drink", without having to book 3 weeks in advance. This would also mean that we could avoid the danger aspect of drinking and eating in the cockpit

(PS I'm a grumpy old bstard today, I'm jet lagged and woke at 4am, and my flying holiday in the USA is over for this year....where I never got PPR once)

Whirlybird

Monocock,

If that were the case it would be simple, and I think in the case of private strips it probably is the case. But what about the airfields that are actually quite happy for anyone to turn up, but are still listed as PPR? englishal put it better than I did:

If you knew PPR meant PPR, rather than knowing it could mean...just about anything really, I for one would find it easier. And if conversations around flying clubs are anything to go by, I'm not unique. People ignore PPR, because they know that a lot of the time it's not actually required. Crying wolf?

Dog's Bone

> recall there used to be another category called PPO which was a sort of aggressive PPR, but I haven't seen that lately.

PPO = Prior Permission Only (by phone)

PPR = Prior Permission Radio

Unfortunately (as Keef reminds us) later day pilots straight out of nursery school, having been taught by equally 'young' and clueless instructors do not remember or even know the difference between the two.

As aviator's of old will tell you, it was quite common to see both 'PPO' or 'PPR' WRITTEN ON THE SAME LINE, TOGETHER, under the appropriate aerodrome, meaning that (PPO) it was essential that you PHONED before leaving on your flight. Whereas (PPR) meant that permission could be sought over the RADIO, however be advised that landing permission could be refused, so have a fall back option and plan your flight to assume that the field would not available.

Yonks ago I recall an aerodrome employee stating that we should have requested Prior Permission. It was pointed out to him that we had, by using the Radio, and had thereby complied with the written instructions which stated that you could use either PPO or PPR.

No doubt with the passage of time the waters have become muddied. I am given to understand by a really old CFI that PPO was in use before radios were in widespread use. As lower category airfields became radio equipped it was acceptable to request permission over the radio, but only if it said 'PPR' (and given the proviso that you must have a fall back option if refused). If it stated 'PPO' then it was not acceptable to use the radio (PPR) for permission.

But I guess this is not what Whirly is on about.

Keef

It does rather sound as if clarification is needed from somewhere.

If PPR by radio is OK (which I know it is with some airfields), then maybe their words should omit PPR - because those with radio will call up - and say "NoRdo PPO" so those without the benefit of wireless know to phone beforehand, so that the AG/FISO/ATC knows what to expect.

But unless I know otherwise, I will continue to phone those marked PPR before I leave the ground on the way there. That's the failsafe mode.

vintage ATCO

Eh, what? PPR does not mean, and never has meant, 'Prior Permission Radio'. It means Prior Permission Required and that means by telephone beforehand.

It use to be that the phrase used was Prior Permission Only - PPO - but this got changed some considerable time ago to PPR. As far as I am concerned the two mean the same thing. Show me anywhere in the AIP where PPR and PPO are used?

The fact that some airfields are happy with PPR over the radio or even not all does confuse the issue. Why don't you speak to them and see if they'll get their AIP entry change which will eventually get swept up into the guides, or those not in the AIP, with the guides directly.

There is no confusion.

drauk

There might be no confusion, but if an airfield is PPR (leaving poor grammar aside) it does make a difference whether it is by phone or by radio. If you're airborne and you decide to fly in to somewhere (perhaps not for a "real weather diversion" but an unplanned stop - you need a break maybe) then you can't call, so you care about the difference and so it's helpful if the flight guide makes the distinction. Of course, nothing to stop you trying on the radio if it's not clear. Unless of course you're thinking of dropping to Elstree without phoning and you get flustered if you get a bollocking on air.

niknak

One of the other, and very relavant reasons that airfields are PPR is because they have draconian planning restrictions imposed upon the number of movements they are allowed each year.
Turn up un announced, and land just because you don't get an answer on the radio, and you could be threatening the future of an airfield somewhere - sadly there are a few idiots who haven't got the brain capacity to think about others.

DubTrub

PPR cannot be given by all persons answering the radio at all airfields. For example, as an A/G operator, I cannot LEGALLY deny anyone from landing.

At the end of the day, any "uninvited" landings (except emergencies) might not be welcome, so as good aviating neighbours, if in doubt, phone ahead.

And get the name of the person giving the PPR.

Keef

I thought that (even) as an AG operator you could tell inbound pilots that the airport owner has refused permission for them to land.

If the AIP entry says PPR and they still go ahead and land, then they should expect some aggro from someone.