Passengers on the flight deck
 

Returning to the UK from spain on a non UK airline I noticed shortly after the seatbelt sign had been switched off a member of the cabin crew escorting a passenger from behind the curtain down the aisle to the rear of the plane, nobody was in the toilet so the only place he could have come from was the flight deck and have been in there for takeoff.

Unable to be 100% sure this is where he came from I paid attention for the rest of the flight, during the cruise another passenger was escorted by cabin crew onto the flight deck. Shortly after decent began she was escorted out then before the seatbelt signs came on the first passenger was then escorted onto the flight deck and was in there for the landing.

The bright light of the sun reflecting onto the roof behind the curtain made it obvious they were being taken to the flight deck. The aircraft was an airbus A320, so there aren't a lot of other places for them to go.

The flight deck door was also open for much longer than I've seen on other flights but for what reason I couldn't see. I know pilots come out of the flight deck to use the facilities and drinks/food are taken in for them but the door isn't usually left open for periods of time like it was on this flight.

Are passengers allowed aboard the flight deck during flight at the crews discretion anymore? I was of the understanding this was no longer allowed and was some what anxious that a flight into London was so relaxed about the door being open and non crew being on the flight deck. They were in civvies and too young to be crew in training but old enough to be of a potential threat if they wished.

The post 9/11 rules are a knee-jerk reaction to a non-existent problem. I've never heard of a hijack that started with the perpetrator politely asking the cabin crew for a flight deck visit.

As a kid I visited the flight deck at every opportunity. On one occasion I was not, for once, in the company of my older brother and so the crew invited me to stay for the landing - there being only one jump seat. I was suitably thrilled. Many ppruners have a similar story.

In 2005 I was on a domestic flight in a third world country and figured there was no harm in asking for a flight deck visit. And again I was invited to stay for the landing. And I was possibly more thrilled than I had been the previous time. Then the pilot told me that if only I had asked in time, he'd have been happy for me to be in there for the take-off. But of course, it's difficult to ask during boarding. Which makes me think that your mystery passenger may have been a son / nephew / friend / similar of one of the crew.

Aeroflot Flight 593 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is an example of why it's not a good idea to put children on the controls. But that's a different kettle of fish.

Having said that, I know a 777 pilot whose first experience of flying an airliner was as an 18 year old on a VC-10... a few moments sat in the co-pilot's seat, hands on controls, autopilot off... and then they took it back off him.

Summary: the *actual* risk was minimal.

Was the flight full? My guess would be staff on ID travel up there because there were no seats in the cabin, although my airlines policy is if you are a jump seat rider, you stay on the flight deck.

Pity it's not done anymore in the Uk, still have fond memories as a 12 year old of a BMI DC-9 trip back from Jersey to Glasgow, spent a good 45 minutes in the cockpit.

Yup... pity indeed.

I've got fond memories of being at the pointy end of a 747 and being allowed to twiddle the HDG knob to help the crew route around some evil looking clouds. :cool:

I've been into the flight deck many times pre 9/11 and loved every second of it. Post 9/11 they've let me in after landing.

A couple of years back I asked on a Thomson flight at boarding as the F/O was standing outside the flight deck. He had a word with the Captain who let me in quickly and said that he was really sorry but he couldn't let me in during flight as it was 'frowned upon heavily' by the Airline and he didn't want to get in any trouble. He had a mini rant about it's a shame and it hampers potential pilots from growing their interest. He said that I was free to pop in after landing too which was nice and I happily obliged.

Ahhhh the view from the pointy end...clear blue sky,& a magnificent view of Lake Turkana on the way home from Nairobi..A very special memory.
I miss asking crew if I can just have a brief visit to the flight deck .:{:{:{

Post 9/11 Flight crew allowed the daughter on the flight deck while in cruise flight. She spent 30 minutes there and now I have a kid who is dead set on becoming a pilot. This summer she will be up in a 152 to turn that into a reality.

Sad some "nuts" have killed this dream for a large number, sadder if the man at the pointy end turns out to be the "nut"

As I have mentioned previously, many BUT NOT ALL countries/authorities/airline SOPS have banned FD visits in flight since 911. It still goes on even with some of the majors. I have made such visits myself and witnessed others. The last time, a few months ago, was on a major North European carrier when the F/O's girlfriend sat on the FD for take-off, part of the cruise, and landing. Even more surprisingly this was inbound to the USA! Did it bother me? Not in the least. I am not a supporter of ridiculous and draconian regulations imposed on the back of knee-jerk reactions by idiots! Oh dear, I'm having a rant. Where are my pills.....;)

Thanks for all the replies on this.

I'll ask them for a visit next time I fly with them then, the worst they can say is no I guess. Wouldn't mind a panoramic view rather than the porthole view we're more accustomed to.

Different rules and regulations apply within the countries of registry. However as your flight was to the UK, all airlines should comply with the UK's legally mandated direction regarding who is ordinarily permitted to be on the flight deck. Failure to comply is a violation of the requirements for a companies permission to operate, and non-compliance runs the risk of sanctions including ultimately the withdrawal of permission to operate the service.

There are people who may not be in uniform and who may otherwise be permitted to remain on the flight deck. This isn't necessarily obvious to the casual observer, and care should be taken in those circumstances not to allow that presence to cause concern to anybody else on board.

There has been no change to the UK governments legally mandated instruction to airlines, and passengers are not ordinarily permitted on the flight deck during flight. This is mandated for all UK airlines and for all foreign airlines whilst operating in UK airspace.

I'm with a UK airline and I occasionally travel on the flight deck. I'm in civvies (generally a suit) and I wear my company ID on a lanyard and my journey starts, endures and ends on that flight deck. This is always with an operational need to be there, with senior company approval in writing, and always with the skipper's agreement. I don't fanny about coming in or out of the door, it'll confuse passengers and it adds an extra risk that doesn't need to be there.

The OP's circumstances sound different to this scenario and as pointed out already it'll be subject to the regulations in force in the country of registration, but on an airline bound for the UK, an aircraft shouldn't have casual observers in the flight deck on approach to UK airspace. I won't quote regulation here but it's quite restrictive, in brief if you're not employed by the airline or by a regulatory body and if you don't have an operational reason to be there, then you shouldn't be there.

Could anyone point me in the issue of the regulations and/or law regulating this? I've been looking a few times to try and find the exact wording in the law but never been able to find anything. Anyone who knows where to look?

If it's a European carrier then it's EU Commission Regulation 185, which I think is a restricted document.

Claybird, perfect, thanks!

Having a restricted document is no good is it (not blaming you personally, just stating it).

Also, several EU countries do allow jumpseating, but the UK does not, which makes me think there is a local UK rule somewhere and not a EU rule (since that would apply everywhere in the EU). Anyone with ideas on where this UK specific document might be?

Just what I've been told by several captains when jumpseating, that it is allowd at captains discretion, but not in the UK where it is a strict no-go unless you have prior written permission from the CAA. However I have never seen any legal text (well until know) regulating this one way or the other, hence why I asked.

The UKs Single Consolidated Direction provides the UK more stringent measures on in flight security measures, this is certainly a restricted document. I'm not sure why you say that's "no good", if you need to know the content then you'll undoubtedly have access to it through your company.

I'm sure I could get access through my company, but then again I wouldn't need to since I can arrange permission to do fam-flights through my company too. I'm just interested in seeing what the wording is since nobody I've spoken to (ie, these captain and FOs) have actually seen the document in question. Which leads to different people having different interpetations of what the rules actually are.

Anyhow, if it's restricted that's that, and I already have the relevant EU and FAA docs to have a look at so I do have a lot more background information now than before.

Thanks for your help everyone, and sorry for the slight drift of the thread.

Your OM-A policy on flight deck access will be based on the SC if you're with a UK carrier, but if you'd actually like to read the SCD itself just ask your company security department, they'll be glad to let you peruse a copy.

Came back to this thread to find all the replies.

Some added information, it was a european airline, but not a British one, not sure if I'm allowed to state which one on here. We were flying from spain to London Heathrow, I don't know where British airspace starts and obviously as a passenger don't know where we are anyway but there was someone in the cockpit for the landing at Heathrow so that would definitely be British airspace and there was someone in there as we started descent so I'd guess that was in British airspace too.

The ages of the 2 different people were estimated to be between 16 and 18.

As a passenger if you see this sort of thing going on who and how do you report to the relevant person/body what has happened on a flight, obviously after landing at your destination?

I don't know what you think you would achieve. Personally I would suggest that you just forget it and move on. FD visits are still the norm on many airlines. If you don't like it then don't fly with them in the future.

A colleague told me that, long before 9/11 when it was encouraged for Captains to visit the cabin, he stopped and told a pretty young woman to go and talk to the 'bored' crew, at which the man in front asked if he too could visit the flight deck ? My friend did a bit of personal Racist Profiling and informed the man that it wasn't normally allowed, to which the response was, naturally, that he had just invited that young woman !

Reluctantly he took the man to back to the flight deck with him, and during the visit asked where he came from ? "I'm a Palestinian Arab, but we're not all idiots of course," was the reply !

He says he still has nightmares about the potential headline - Captain Invites Hijacker To The Flight Deck !!

I flew with one Captain who refused all visits, this is my Office he said, if I walked into the Bank, tipped my hat to a Teller and asked if I could watch the Manager at work, I'd get thrown out on my ear. He went on to say that we hold Surgeons, Judges, and other highly paid professions in some awe because we don't normally know what they actually do in their Operating Theatre or Chambers, so there is some mystique about their work, by only inviting passengers to the flight deck in the cruise, when most of us are sitting back drinking coffee, we make it look all too easy, so questions are asked about why we are paid the salary that we are, they never see us wrestling with a Cat III ILS approach into some difficult airfield in bad weather at night, "keep 'em guessing" was his attitude.

Whilst I don't entirely agree - I've had some interesting experiences as a result of allowing flight deck visits - he had a point.

I had some trouble finding it again, although I have linked to it in the past, but This might help.

FD visits
 

Yes its very unfortunate that these restrictions now exist. A long time before 9/11 I worked in the office for a now defunct charter airline at LGW and flew on the flight deck all the time. On one particular occasion the Ops Manager saw me in the office before I went to check in and asked me to find a personal friend of his at check in and escort him up to the FD as he had FD clearance, which I proceeded to do. The guest naturally took the Flight Observer's seat behind the Capt. On receiving Take Off clearance I sat down on the bulkhead jump seat and put on the harness. The Capt. turned round and said that I couldn't see anything sitting there and that I should stand up and hold on to the back of his seat at which point we took off with a full load on a transatlantic. A very memorable departure!

Why the coyness about naming the airline?

FD visits
 

I'm not sure the name is relevant to the story as they're long gone now and I recently learnt the captain has too unfortunately.

That poster has received an 'Infraction Notice' for bad language. There was no need to use such words when making a point.

One year, back around 1990, BA decided that everyone who had already booked a flight on Shakespeare's birthday should fly free. I was lucky to be flying from Heathrow to Lisbon that day, and along with many other passengers had five minutes or so on the flight deck of a nearly-new B757.

I doubt if we will see it again, either the open invitation up front or the free flight!

42 years ago whilst on a charter trip to the U.S. an announcement was made inviting anyone who wished to visit the flight
deck should just tell one of the cabin crew. Surprisingly only about 10 or so of us bothered :eek:

I was on a summer 1979 Jetsave CP Air charter to Canada (a DC8-60) where there an announcement that you could visit the cockpit and there was a queue going back half the length of the cabin. But I suspect that long haul charter flights are a special case. Also there may be a "herd" element involved.

Concorde charters used to carry a supernumerary captain to answer flightdeck visitors questions and let the crew get on with flying the plane.

I wish I could go back in time!