Erm...no. You have to be travelling in F or (from the BA site)

But you do get to be ignored by a nicer class of people.

As I specified a J class pax, they won't be travelling F.

So that means even a J class pax with a gold card, but less than 5,000 tier points, has to take the hike.

And if that passenger is travelling on a flexible ticket to Tokyo, they will have have paid £6,449 for the privilege.

It's ludicrous, isn't it?

At the other airports I use, the lounges are placed for the convenience of the pax, not the shops.

@ F3G ... thanks for that route plan; a useful reminder.

As a humble J, I really thought I'd got lost by the time I'd done the "long walk" to reach the Galleries Lounge. You're quite right: "Concorde" has set a new standard in putting J-pax in the place an making them walk the extra mile [almost literally]. Did someone actually design this? Or is it like the kid controlling at JFK, who got to pencil in where the J-pax can't get access?

Anyway, next trip we're heading straight to the Galleries Lounge above our Gate in T5b [which never seems to get mentioned by either BA or BAA]. I only found it by accident once we'd done the journey to T5b to get ready to board.

Why do BA/BAA spend so much money on providing these facilities, and then make them so difficult to access?
Why do BA spend so much time pi55ing off J-pax?

[PS - don't even get me started on the "Priority Security" channel]

Mrs. J often flys in J class and she has never been pissed off with BA. Alot of her colleagues also travel in J and they have never been pissed off.
We have in the past had some bad experiences on other airlines and have voted with our money, we still to this day refuse to use 2 airlines due to very poor service. So if you don't like the product don't use it simples.

Maybe they have lower expectations than some of us?

Possibly because we travel on the best airlines in the world, as well?

Maybe or perhaps they have been luckier.
The fact still remains if you don't like the product don't use it. If you can get better value elsewhere do so.

@ Jarvy ... which sort of brings us back to where the thread is supposed to be.

People pay a lot of beans to fly up front, and they expect something for their money other than just a bigger seat. Most people here, I guess, are British, and naturally expect British Airways to deliver a quality product.

AIRLINE QUALITY

Feel free to explore how wonderful US airlines are. I won't even think of flying one across the Atlantic. :cool:

No I don't want to fly across the pond with an american airline. There are only 2 british airlines that fly on the route I choose (bos-lhr). I fly mostly down the back so the two are pretty much the same exept that from my point of view T5 is much better than T3.
Mrs J flies further up the plane and prefers the red airline but it costs more so she goes with BA which from her view offer better value. The company she works for get a better deal with American but that is going a bit too far.
To finish off, myself and F3G will never agree on BA or T5.

@ Jarvy ... Interesting comment from you on pricing with BA/VS. Booking from this side of the pond [LHR-IAD] they always come up with the same cost [+- about £5].

However ... down the back, I agree VS and BA are fairly similar, I recall.
Up front it's a question of style/comfort/service.

T5 is not great, but better than T3. At least my overnight stop is in a hotel attached to T5. Cheaper hotels exist outside the perimeter, but then the cab fare to the Terminal quickly eliminates the difference!

Funny about pricing but maybe company discounts come into play in favour of BA.
Going back to the begining of this thread, we had booked to fly WT and because Mrs J is gold we were giving exit row seats on booking.
I also think T5 is better than T4 and better than either at Gatwick.

That is not true, for example

I agree with. Then again, it should be, as one is a brand new design and the other is nearly 50 years old, landed with an old fashioned design and added to in an ad hoc manner over the intervening period.

I would also choose BA over the US carriers on the BOS-LHR routing, in fact I would choose BA over VS.

I repeat, as I have said on other threads, I have never had a bad experience with BA aloft. The service is acceptable or better.

On the other hand the ground service is often diabolical; e.g. I had to spend 20 minutes speaking to my credit card company yesterday (international call), because BA did not know whether they had charged me for some flights I booked for later in the year and called me to ask whether I knew.

Their system had confirmed payment had been taken, but they could not find the payment.

When I called back to tell them the money had not been debited, their finance section decided to wait for two days before re-debiting, 'just in case we have a hold over the funds.'

That is just crass.

With the very greatest of respect, I travel frequently in business class and have very high expectations of the product/service - I would admit to being very critical.

I make no apologies for this and apply the same standard to my own performance (I run a micro service business, where our clients are also hyper critical - quite rightly for the fees they pay.)

If I was travelling economy (and I do sometimes, on leisure) I would be much less critical as my perception of value for money changes considerably.

Finally, I don't know if you are American or an expat Brit, but I want British Airways to be a strong player. It's good for me as a traveller and as a British citizen I want to take pride in our largest national carrier.

Those who have been on PPrune for a long time will know that I was a very strong supporter of BA until about 2005, when a combination of threatened strikes and the GG fiasco made me step back and question my loyalty.

Sadly, the past 5 years have seen a further decline, IMHO.

Over my 32 years of business travel, BA started off as 'Best Avoided', then improved dramatically to be my airline of choice from the mid 90's to 2005 and now, sadly, are returning to their former status.

The sad aspect is that BA does have some very good individuals working for it (I think of some cabin crew and also the operational research people I knew), but has suffered from poor leadership and management for a long time. In particular, the company has seriously lost its way in managing its relationship with independent premium passengers, who are not hampered by corporate travel policies and will switch carrier if mishandled.

Paxboy has opined several times about the decline of BA and saldy I tend to agree with his call.

If you take a look at this webpage Understanding the Corporate Lifecycle | Adizes it may be interesting to take a view where BA is on it's corporate lifecycle.

F3G:

I couldn't agree more. And what really niggles me is the nagging suspicion that the flexi F fare that I pay is artificially hiked to allow the corporate customer a substantial "discount". Which I effectively subsidise. It would be nice to know I am wrong.

Not just corporates, but staff as well.

I am a brit who has lived out here for only 18 months and its nice to find some things we agree on.
We can all look at things and say how it could be better. I can only comment on the things in my little world. We have only travelled with with a few airlines so can only comment on those. You agree that from Boston to London my options are limited and BA is the better one.I could increase my options if I used any of the New York airports but I won't as I like Boston Logan.
We do get some of the older aircraft of the BA fleet and I also understand that its not a popular route with the crews.
We have also in the past used BA on european routes (Mrs. J spent 18 months comuting between the UK, Germany and Portugal).
I will agree that overall standards have dropped but I think this has happened across the board. Early Easyjet flights were much better than todays, the same applies to Virgin. I flew with Virgin to Miami in the early 90's and service was much better than current flights.
Why sould this be so?
I believe the answer to that not just one thing but many and varied, and if I knew the whole answer I could be a very wealthy man. I know where to start and that is customer satisfaction first and foremost.

@ Jarvy ... you said:
... which, i hope, is one of the aspects that BA will be addressing.

Frankly, at the risk of being banned from this Forum [I've been denied access to the "Private" CC Forum for a couple of weeks now], this is where the whole BA operation starts to go down the tubes.

I pay my fare [usually in J] and I expect to receive what I pay for. In the nicest possible way, I really don't care whether the CC enjoy flying that route or not. I gather the same applies to BA flying to IAD. Hey, people, sorry about the lack of the white sandy beach. They don't do those in MA or VA. Live with it, or work with an airline that only does long stop-overs at somewhere with a nice beach/hotel. Please don't blame the pax for flying to a destination you don't like.

@ F3G ... Is that Premium service that is acceptable? Whatever happened to 'excellence'? Remember the "World's Favourite Airline"? Do BA believe that 'acceptable' is good enough in a competitive marketplace?

@ British Airways ... please, when the current nausea has subsided, resume offering a superior product to your Premium pax. "Acceptable" isn't going to recover the thousands of pax who have deserted BA in recent months.

@ BA Cabin Crew ... I honestly, and with sincerity, do NOT tar you all with the same brush. Most of those who i have encountered have been excellent, especially on European and Domestic sectors. The unfortunate exception is some of those who work LHR-IAD.

Does that minor rant get anyone anywhere? Probably not. Sorry. :hmm:

If I recall correctly, that was based on international pax carried NOT how the pax felt about the carrier!!! It was always acknowledged that AA carry more pax but do so within the USA. BA found this fact about their number of international pax and went with it, i.e. Simply because we are a small country, BA could claim to be big! It was a very successful pitch.

F3G Thanks for the link to Adizes, I have often sketched that for folks so it's very nice to have a fully 'Flashed' version of it. My response is 'Bureaucracy'. How near the start of that phase, depends on how benevolent you feel. There are a number of other companies in the UK and USA that are in a similar position, such as most of the motor-car manufacturers. I won't start on other airlines ...

For the record (again for new joiners of this forum) it gives me no pleasure to say this about BA and I shall not see them eventually close and get taken over with any joy - but it will happen, it's only how and when. As with F3G, I have had wonderful flights with BA and they only stopped being my first choice in long haul after the Dirty Tricks affair.

TTB

When you read the CC forum, the feeling is the BA people really believe that they are providing 'excellence', when in fact they are providing something that is really mid range.

To be fair, the cutbacks imposed by management have degraded the product, but the service compenent is usually acceptable to good.

On the other hand there are other carriers who are good to excellent.

There was a discussion on here, not so long ago, about why BA ask people to close the overhead bins.

That summed it up for me. The people explaining this were not being sarcastic, but the detachment from reality was quite tangible.

This policy was putting the needs of CC before passengers and I have not encountered another airline who expects this.

Small point, perhaps, but a significant indicator of mindset I would say.

I was lucky enough to start travelling at the end of the era of the BOAC 'Sergeant Major', who were unbelievably good at what they did.

As a customer, when you say you are flying BA, it is still met with approval by your peers, that you are flying with the best. Professionally as an Air Traffic Controller, BA pilots are great to work with. I am flying with BA long haul on Thursday after flying with Virgin last year. I have got to say, I will be flying with Virgin next time. I cannot believe that BA would stoop so low as to charge to book a seat. As a family of 4, it will cost me £80, and it is less to do with the money, but more to do with principle, that I will not pay this ridiculous charge. It feels like I am traveling with Ryanair. I have been allocated seats as I have a child, well 2 actually but one is over 12, but we are not all in the same row, so I will have to wake up early from my nightshift, to check in and try and change my seats. I actually work the flight I am going on every day, and usually met with the question, "any chance of this and that " and if I can I accommodate. I just phoned BA and asked any chance of moving one seat so we are in the same row and it is an inconvenience to check in tomorrow, and they said I would have to pay this silly charge. (and I didn't name drop, I just asked as a favour to a customer who has spent over £2000 for a flight)

I was told (by BA ground staff) that internally and informally, the Concorde door is referred to as the 'million pound door', as BA have to pay an extortionate amount to BAA to have that door and not have F class pax walk past the shops.

BAA really is the pits and the economies they make on T5 are silly. No paper towels in toilets - does it never occur to these dimwits that people may want to wash their face? Lack of moving walkways on arrival - one can go on and on. Public flogging and execution of the top three levels of BAA management would be a good start - 'pour encourager les autres'.

Pretty much true. When T5 was being designed, the briefed BA requirement for the Galleries was for entrance at the same level as security. BAA disregarded this, and provided the entrance on the gate level as they wanted the BA premium customers with lots of cash (in their eyes) to walk past all the shops. That is why its all the posh shops going down that end towards the Galleries. On many occasions before opening BAA were approached again and asked if they would reconsider. Sometimes the answer was a flat no. Sometimes they said yes, but with a hefty price tag. And a million£per year is underestimating it by a long way. Eventually they agreed to having "the million pound door" but on the proviso that it really was only for use into the Concorde Lounge so they don't lose too much shopping revenue. And again a million £ price tag is a bit stingy as an estimate of what that is costing.

I called BA on behalf of a close friend who for compassionate reasons (genuine) needed to change the inbound sector on a Premium Economy long haul. These are people who as a family have spent over £50,000 per annum with the airline over the last few years and two of whom are Gold Card holders.

Because it was discounted (a published fare, not a special offer, consolidator, or ID ticket) the fare rule stated that the fare had to be recalculated at the full applicable fare from the point of origin. As it happens the outbound portion was a full 'W' class fare, but they chose to apply the most restrictive condition from origin to destination, even though the rule didn't state that this had to be the case (some do) and they could have used discretion and appplied it only to the inbound leg.

My request to speak to a supervisor was met with an obstructiveness and arrogance bordering on rudeness and only through being tenacious was I able to do so. He was as unyielding and unsympathetic as his underling.

This time, they've got their few hundred pounds. There won't be any more going their way. When I told the supervisor this I was told that 'that is a choice that you are entitled to make'.

Capetonian
 

I've had very similar experiences to you on BA, not to mention their near perfect record when it comes to not loading passengers and bags onto the same flight.

BA are actually no different to virtually every other western airline, "full service" or "LoCo", in that they simply do not care about their customers. I guess a 41% share of slots at LHR pretty much means they don't need to.

WW is at least honest enough to admit that BA isn't Ryanair, and cannot match that airline for punctuality or lost bags stats.

Reading these threads about the deterioration in service levels at British Airways makes me feel very sad.

It makes me sad because I am old enough to remember when the airline went out of its way to help passengers and make sure they were well looked after.

Yes there were rules and yes there were inflexible tickets but ground staff had discretion and I found that if you were nice and polite then BA ground staff would often do all in their power to help you out.

Many years ago now I booked a trip to JFK - out economy and back on Concorde. (yes I did say it was a long time ago!) It was in the days of those rectangular paper tickets and the words 'Non END/REF' had pride of place to show no changes were permitted.

As it happened the outbound Concorde never made it to New York so my return flight was obviously cancelled.

BA said I could either fly back First Class or book onto another Concorde flight at a date of my choosing.

I wanted to fly Concorde so I opted to change my return flight for one a month or so later but this left me with the problem of having to buy another ticket to fly home.

Obviously a last minute, one-way ticket, bought at JFK, just hours before I wanted to fly was going to cost me a small fortune.

The ticket agent quoted me the price, saw me turn white, checked his screen again and found that whichever flight he booked me on that evening all the prices would be about the same.

Then he did something he didn't have to do and which I have never forgotten.

He said: "I suppose it is our fault that your original flight was cancelled so let's see if I can do anything about your flight home today."

He then set to work on the keyboard, smiled, and came up with a fare which was a fraction of the earlier price.

I asked him what he had done and he told me he had calculated what the fare would have been had I booked it at the time I originally purchased my ticket.

"Can you do that?"I asked.

"I certainly can sir. Have a great flight!" he replied.

BA has my airline of choice since then but over the years the airline has become less and less likely to help out when a passenger has a problem.

Maybe the time is rapidly approaching when I check out the competition when making my long-haul travel plans.

Griff.

Griff : The good old days when passengers were ladies and gentlemen, not scruffy arrogant yobs, and airline counters were staffed by ladies and gentlemen and not automatons pushing buttons.

Or to put it another way, more people fly more often. People don't stay in a job for life anymore, loyalty to one's employer is not what it was and the attitude to customers and staff has changed right across the economy.

It's not BA's fault, everyone's at it. Few companies could find the right people for the right wage in the UK talent pool to fill the jobs with the discretion required. There's too many flights, hence rules and procedures to maintain operations that impact upon discretion. It also removed the ability of staff to muck about with revenue.

In the UK we don't have a single airport that was built from scratch with the 21st century long haul / short haul / legacy / loco mix in mind. Next week I fly through T3 LHR built for the 707 and DC8, one can't help but notice it now looks like the Trafford Centre with an immigration centre attached. I think the problem runs WAY deeper than BA.

Indeed if they brought back all the little touches that were great back in the day, I'd be paying a comparable price that used to leave me skint for a month after booking. In short, they'd go bust remarkably quickly, BASSA notwithstanding.

Ever since Eddington came on board BA seem to have become spectacularly good at alienating its best premium passengers, for me its now just one of a number of airlines I look at where once it was BA wherever possible.

Just a couple of examples of the stupidity
Old days a very high usage Gold Car holder - something like £100k a year spend if I recall - you got a freebie silver card for the wife/partner. Everytime my wife flew to see me at personal cost so in the back - of course she used BA. Cost to BA a cup of coffee in the lounge. Benefit withdrawn. Started flying other carries depending on schedule.

High usage Gold Car holder - 2 free upgrades. Cost to BA, effectively zero.Then made it almost impossible to use the damn things irrespective of seat availability or not. Result - holiday flights and personal cost flights - booked on best available airline.

Expecting a passenger who has just spent over £3 grand on a biz class flight to fork out another £120 to choose a seat at time of booking. Companies pay for the flight but they wont pay to book a seat in advance. Result, other carrier used.

By way of contrast, and to show that some companies still value their customers.

Booked IOM to LGW then LHR to HKG; IOM flight cancelled due to ash cloud. Called the HK hotel with which I had a booking with a 48 hour cancelation period. Explained that I couldn't fly from IOM to get my LHR flight because of volcano, that I needed to cancel my reservation, and that I knew I was in for the no show penalty. She asked me to repeat the bit about the volcano (I'm sure that news of it's activities could not have reached HK by that time as only the north of England had beed shut down). I was asked to send her an email relating the circumstances which she would pass to her revenue manager, to see whether the penalty might be waived.

I didn't ask for this, but I was polite etc when telling the tale.

Shortly after my email was sent I received a reply for the revenue manager advising that no penalty would be sought.

I had stayed with this hotel a few times before, and I have stayed several times since. It is now my hotel of choice in HK and I happily recommend it whenever the opportunity arrises.

Customer service does still exist. In Asia.

BA
 

I wouldadd my thoughts here, but it isn't worth it as those in BA who could do something about it don't read this stuff, and if they do, they don't care.
We just upset JSL, GG and Tira.

As demonstrated by Cathy Pacific recently when there was that fire at LHR and no catering could be loaded.

BA's answer would be 'tough' not our problem

All this moaning. What are you doing about it? Have you written to BA? or are you just blowing off steam?

Ultimately the market will dictate whether or not this is just a standard internet forum whine or whether there is really anything in it. If you are all correct BA will soon go bust due to it's customers leaving in droves. The converse is that if your expectations have been too high, then BA will continue serenely on without you.

For a more balanced view of BA and its strengths and weaknesses as a full service airline from the perspective of it's frequent flyers go to flyertalk.com

JT

Juan,
you, you are right. :D

As I said above, continuation of all the negativity here just upsets the good guys & girls, although F3Gs' battles against poor service are always worth a read!
However, the problem with flyertalk is that it has a disproportionate number of premium pax commenting on BA.

JT I should like to think that is true but my experience of living and working in Britain (as an adult) for 35 years says otherwise. I have seen a very considerable number of companies systematically reduce their customer service in the name of profit and BA is but one of the many.

The contra-intuitive way of getting out of a black hole does not occur to the herd mentality that is engendered by the daily examination of the share price. From the days when people invested for the long term, to the days when too many (post 1986) look upon the FTSE as a slot machine, have contributed to the running of PLCs.

There is enough evidence to show that BA has not been listening for many years and I suggest, they are not going to listen now. They have chosen a path and are following it. Good luck to them. If they do (as I have said before) sink lower in the global rankings, it does not matter as new services and carriers will overtake them. Sad? Yes. But it happens all the time. It's called survival of the fittest. In terms of a company it is now thought the survival of the financially fittest but if the service is not there, then the finance will fade.

Over the years I've been participating in this forum, I could not begin to imagine how many sorry tales we have heard of BA responding to complaints with standard letters or no letter. If you write to a company and point out the problem and they do not respond - why do it again? Why keep buying from them?

BA have not been my first choice of carrier for 20 years but I know from the times when I have used them that their service is great. But they went for Dirty Tricks and it's been downhill since. I feel very sorry for the engineering staff and the flight/cabin crew but they will be defeated by their management.

Juan, IMHO you are wrong.

Writing to BA is a waste of time. I have written three times in the last weeks with a complaint, and a small monetary claim, over a flight cancellation on day 1 of the recent strike when the only option I was given was to return from my holiday a day early. Soon afterwards the cancelled the day before's flight (I suspect to use the slot to get chartered aircraft on the ground at LHR) and left us standing by at LHR going from gate to gate trying to get home. Frankly nobody could give a XXXX, it must have been our fault.

I have yet to have even an acknowledgement. It is also impossible to use e-mail to get in touch.

I'm ex-gold, but I won't travel BA unless there is no other option.

Flyertalk has many BA staff 'on-board' who enjoy bullying anyone who doesn't love BA to pieces. It is not impartial.

But moaning on an internet forum works for you? It gets results? BA change their service because of it? The only way BA will change is if they get enough letters from enough customers to show that their service is not up to standard. A single complaint may not change things but as part of many it may. But if on the other hand you feel you will get better results by moaning here, please carry on.

@Paxboy, we seem to be making the same point, when I referred to the market, I was talking about the wider market, not the stock market. If the demand for your service is falling due to poor product then you either adapt or go out of business. The world of business is Darwinistic - evolve or die. If BA do not evolve they will die. Customer service is never perfect, sometimes companies get it wrong, and if they do that they need to be told.

I once wrote BA a polysyllabic pirouette of protest when Concord was six hours late out of London to collect two of us in Barbados. It worked quite well and BA very kindly sent me three First Class returns to Bridgetown as a compensation for the inconvenience of arriving into Heathrow later than the usual supersonic civilised time. I have no idea why the airline's largesse extended to three tickets. It did however involve me in considerable expense in that I had to fund another hotel stay in Barbados in order to use the tickets so kindly supplied by BA. So yes indeed, writing to an airline can work. It takes only a little time to politely tell them how irritated you are. And if you do receive apologetic consolation it is very gratifying if only because of its apparent rarity value.

It is a shame to read the comments on here about BA service deteriorating.

I used to think (about 15 years ago) that it was one of the best airlines in the world.

However, it is now quite some time since I have flown with the airline and I would be loathe to do so anytime soon due to the industrial action - at least until management and unions demonstrate that they can work together like adults for a sustained period of time.

When something goes wrong I write to the organisation concerned, and I tell them what require and why. My request is usually reasonable (in my view!).

When they send back a standard cut and paste bull!!!! reply I escalate the matter. I continue to do so until I get what I want - which is often more than I asked for at the outset. Persistence is the name of the game.

Having a good old bitch on internet forums is a relief valve and I suspect that many of us who post on such forums hope that their comments are read by senior PR staff at the airlines.

Unfortunately, the cold, dispassionate reality is that BA (and no doubt every other major airline) receive multiple requests for compassionate ticket changes every day. I've known of a number of genuine requests supported by documentary evidence (bereavement or sudden hospitalisation of a family member for example) be actioned swiftly with BA pulling out all the stops to help. In contrast there are plenty of requests which are unsupported and are likely to be an attempt to avoid the change fee on a highly-discounted non-flexible fare. These requests come from the full range of customers. How is BA to tell the difference?

My 'moan' was in response to your suggestion that this is how I should handle the situation. I don't expect BA will change their service because of my comments.

I'm not holding out any hope of the situation improving. Which is why I won't travel BA unless I have no other option. And I'm not the only one.

I see a lot of comments from others who are saying, if you allow me to paraphrase. BA used to be really good but they are failing badly now, I sure hope they return to their glory, soon! Well I see no signs of that.

If you are BA staff, can I suggest you pass along my 'moan'? Rather than treat me as a whiner, you should consider me to be a 'canary'. I could care less if my particular issue is dealt with, but you should.

Timothy Claypole

How is BA to tell the difference? Fair comment, but in the old days they had staff who were empowered to use discretion and, if appropriate, ask for supporting documentation. In the case I cited, evidence was available (in fact, they would only have had to have seen a newspaper) and I offered it, but they were quite blatantly disinterested and not even prepared to discuss it.

I've worked for airlines for long enough to know that there are chancers by the million out there, and that there are millionaires who are too mean to pay a £10 amendment fee.

Sorry, but however you look at it BA have failed miserably in their duty of care to their most loyal and valuable customers.