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-   -   Heathrow Airport 'may not cope during Olympics' (https://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/482383-heathrow-airport-may-not-cope-during-olympics.html)

farci 2nd May 2012 08:21


If my work permitted, I would be out of the country for the whole period and find the tiniest possible island to sit on.
Why not come to Glasgow and hide out? We're 400 miles away, the beer's great and the people are nice :ok:

...Oh - hang on!! The Commonwealth Games are being held here in in Glasgow in 2014. We've sold everything in the city to pay for them, we've forcibly ejected people from their houses to build an athletes' village and we will shortly change some of our laws to facilitate the elite's progress through the city. :ugh:

Er, any ideas for that small island for the year after next?

Carry0nLuggage 2nd May 2012 09:26

I think the only ones in favour of the London olympics are the Parisians.

Back to the main topic. This problem has been brewing for years. Many's the time I've returned from work into LGW or LHR and legged it to immigration only to see the staff closing desks. Funny how they always decided it's time for a tea break just ahead of 2 or 3 or 737's load of pax arriving at once.

Those passport reading machines seem to be even slower than the IRIS ones. Most frustrating to see fellow pax in longer queues going through the desks faster than you can via the automated gates.

Out of interest, what would happen if a large group of UK passport holders held up their passports and marched through en masse, politely but firmly declining to be stopped? What authority do the BF have? I'm guessing the plod would arrest as many as possible followed by a few exemplary prosecutions and sentences.

PAXboy 2nd May 2012 10:09

COL That is sedition and the thought police will track you down and punish you for even having asked the question. :eek:

Thanks for the warning, farci - GLA is off my list for a while.

As far as I can tell, the British govts have relied on people 'doing the right thing' for a very long time. They have presumed people will ask and then follow the rules. The turnaround will happen one day.

GrahamO 2nd May 2012 10:14

Evidenced by the number of people applying for tickets, and the massive oversubscription, and the continuing moans about not being able to get tickets on just about any sports website ............ the overwhelming majority of people interested in any sport in the UK are looking forward to the Olympics.

These people however don't inhabit moaning Forum threads like this one - they have their tickets and are happy and looking forward to the events.

A small vocal minority really need to get a life and accept that the world does not revolve around them and their views.

Peace :D

PAXboy 2nd May 2012 10:45

No problem with that point of view GrahamO. I just hope that all those folks can look back in ten years time with satisfaction at what was done and the value for money. By that time the legacy will be clear, although the financial debt may not be paid off.

I wasn't born cynical, it's just that I've lived in the UK for most of my life ...
Shalom. :)

radeng 2nd May 2012 11:56

I would be happy with that Graham IF..

Those that want it PAY for it, those that don't, don't.

Those that don't want don't get inconvenienced by it.

It's not a case of 'getting a life', it's case of immense selfishness and inconsideration for those that don't want it.

GrahamO 2nd May 2012 18:08

/me inserts tongue in cheek firmly


I would be happy with that Graham IF..

Those that want it PAY for it, those that don't, don't.
Thats okay, but we live in a democracy where such decisions are not down to individuals opting out of everything they don't want. For example, your pension and healthcare is almost certainly funded by others that would rather not fund you and let you die early and in pain. You cannot have it both ways. If it was people only paying for things they want, I doubt much of the airline industry would even exist and most posters would be out of a job.


Those that don't want don't get inconvenienced by it.
Nowhere in the world works like that. Every person on the road behind you is being inconvenienced by your presence on the road, and I doubt you consider the inconvenience you present to everyone else around. If only you stayed at home, everyone else would be much better off ? Hoe self-important can one person come across when they expect everybody else to not 'inconvenience' them but will of course expect all the social norms to apply to everyone else.


It's not a case of 'getting a life', it's case of immense selfishness and inconsideration for those that don't want it.
Not at all - its an overweening self entitlement attitude of folks who like to pay and put up with the things they like and want and feel offended if anyone else wants the same, should it not suit them.

Really, it is a case of getting a sense of perspective of your own importance to the world and moderate your expectations.

The anti-olympics lot are a small, irrelevant minority, and as such their inconvenience is of no relevance in a civilised, democratic society. And if Heathrow cannot cope, its because folks don't want to pay a reasonable price to fund the throughput they want. Of course they pay a reasonable price but I suspect ,ost of the money goes on final salary pensions rather than funding direct front line staff salaries.

(thats my grumpy minority viewpoint to which I am resigned to accepting will not be changed)

Tableview 2nd May 2012 18:25

I'm not sure that "The anti-olympics lot are a small, irrelevant minority, and as such their inconvenience is of no relevance in a civilised, democratic society" is true or even fair.

Whilst I would concede that we tend to mix with people whose views and politics coincide with our own (the major exception in my life and probably most other peoples' being the person I live with but that's another story!), most of the people whose views on this I have heard think it's a massive and utter nuisance at best, and a waste of money and a security risk at worst. Even my sports-mad brother-in-law takes that view and is sickened at the toguht of how much it will cost him.

I haven't seen any polls, but I would suspect that the anti-Olympic brigade are far from being a small minority, but I have no facts with which to back that up.

TightSlot 2nd May 2012 19:06

Weirdly GrahamO I kind of agree with and understand your points made: This is one of the penalties of a democracy for the dissenter and to believe otherwise would be childish. I get it, I really do...

For me, the problem is that I strongly suspect that a lot of the enthusiasm is manufactured: I'm not convinced that the minority against is that small. The cultural and social pressure is certainly "on" to approve. That said, you're absolutely correct that this was a decision reached democratically and we have to accept it.

My rant was more about the general state of affairs in Britain today - of which the Olympics are merely a part. I'm aware that I sound like 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" and hate myself for doing so - which of course only fuels the cross-ness,

I hope that you, and others, enjoy the Olympics: I won't, but that's my issue. I still hope that the revolution begins with foreigners queueing at Immigration because I despair of Britain ever healing itself. We should not be imposing our sad little management incompetencies on others - It's discourteous, unwise and foolish, since we apparently expect them to simultaneously be queuing up to invest on these shores.

Tableview 2nd May 2012 19:09


you're absolutely correct that this was a decision reached democratically and we have to accept it.
Was it? By what democratic process was the decision reached? I may have missed something by not having been in the UK but I do have access to the media.

radeng 2nd May 2012 19:45

If you had the choice, would you take the money and

Spend it on making sure that the elderly needing care in their homes get more than 15 minutes for a visit?

Not get rid of hundreds of uniformed policemen when crime is not under control?

Not see nurses made redundant and wards closed?

Spend more money on getting unemployed youngsters into work?

Get homeless families out of bed and breakfast and into council housing rather than expensive private housing?

Not have Air Ambulances funded by voluntary contributions because the ambulance trusts can't afford it?

Not have workers in the defence industry made redundant and become a drain on the State while depriving the Armed Forces of needed equipment?

Not have even violent criminals let out of jail because there isn't the funding to provide enough places for them?

And many, many more examples.

OR - Fund the Olympics.


Note, too the hidden costs to businesses - and even the Government. Ofcom must have spent a small fortune so far on provisions yet LOCOG said they didn't want to have to pay for radio licences.


And, as Tableview said, were we asked? We weren't, so you cannot say it was democratic decision.

Admittedly, we don't really live in a democracy - we only like to think we do.

PAXboy 2nd May 2012 22:45

With great reluctance, I return to topic but I would much prefer to discuss this fascinating topic and ALL of the points of view.


Immigration staff are to stage a one-day strike in the bitter dispute over public sector pensions, threatening huge disruption at airports including Heathrow, which is already being hit by massive delays.The Immigration Services Union (ISU), which represents 4,500 Border Agency staff, said its members will walk out next Thursday, May 10, at ports and airports across the UK and abroad.
from: Heathrow immigration staff to strike on 10 May over pensions - Home News - UK - The Independent

radeng 3rd May 2012 09:04

The thing I don't understand is this. Is not the pension and all that is involved with it in terms of retirement age, employee payments etc part of the contract of employment? If so, how come the government can unilaterally break that contract without formally dismissing everybody and offering them re-employment on the new contract?

I think some councils have done that: if the employee rejects the offer of employment, can he then get redundancy?

It does suggest that any contract with the government for anything can be broken as when they wish. Ipso facto, then the government never negotiates in good faith......

MPN11 3rd May 2012 17:49

Oh well, I'm LHR T5 will work perfectly for all International Arrivals tomorrow, whether they are UK, EU + Swiss, or Others.

Or not, of course. :mad:

CARR30 5th May 2012 12:24

Heathrow is a mess and UK civil servants, particularly security staff, are mostly self-serving jobs-worths.

In what sense is this 'news'?

radeng 5th May 2012 17:49

Airport security aren't civil service, but BAA employees. The civil servants who do the work are the ones who are being downsized and expected to deal with large volumes of traffic while their managers hit targets for reducing staff numbers - at the behest of politicians with no idea of reality.

One government agency 'reduced headcount' at the end of last year with payouts which were pretty generous. Even to a guy who was retiring in March this year.........They now have taken om the same number of new people in the same grades but without the experience and real knowledge, but they moved the budget numbers by not having people for 6 months so it looks good.....

rjc54n 6th May 2012 13:25

This mess seems to be a depressingly familiar story of poor decision making driven by incompatible requirements, misplaced faith in technology and a shrill, partisan politics over-influenced by opinion polls and the media. It has been a long time in the making.

The first requirement was the political decision to toughen border checks. A heady mix of terrorist threat and public unease over immigration and asylum whether exaggerated or real, created a political will for perceived tighter borders.

The second requirement was to reduce expenditure in the face of a large deficit, recession and expanding borrowing. To a greater or lesser degree this was the narrative of all parties.

In order to do more work (tighter checks) with less resource (budgets and headcount cuts) productivity must increase substantially. I imagine that this was anticipated as a result of technology investment in biometrics and automated borders. I also imagine that those productivity improvements were grossly over-estimated and under delivered (the error rate for E-passport gates is well documented.)

So something had to give. In the first place the border force took the very pragmatic approach of relaxing checks for low risk passengers at peak times. Alas, this was deemed politically unacceptable (after much press hysteria) and Brodie Clark was sacrificed to protect his political masters.

So now they have nowhere to go. The technology won’t improve things quickly. A pragmatic approach to checking has been ruled out as political suicide and there is a finite pool of trained staff (probably feeling overworked and under siege right now). Given capacity is limited and insufficient queues have increased.

As always the crisis will eventually be managed and the news agenda will move on. However I do find it vaguely depressing that our current climate of public discourse discourages sensible, nuanced, truthful debate and makes these sort of issues more rather than less likely.

radeng 6th May 2012 15:50

Knowledgeable sources tell me that Brodie Clark was considered useless by many of the Border Agency staff, partially because he didn't know what he was doing. How true this is, I know not, but his popularity with the staff was pretty low.

rjc54n's analysis seems pretty accurate to me, however. The demonstrated incompetence is why I still like the idea of a public flogging of the Home Secretary every time the wait exceeds 10 minutes in the EU queue!

notlangley 18th May 2012 07:50

Welcome to Cornwall
 
The smart people (like the Princess Royal) have found a clever way to bypass Heathrow's queues. Of course the Duchy belongs to her sister-in-law, but anything to avoid the queues in Heathrow.

ptr120 19th May 2012 22:35

farci,

no laws will be changed to failitate the elete's progress through the city for the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow, as there won't be any Olympic style games lanes. The only law that will be introduced is around brand protection / ambush marketing, which is a bid comittment.

wub 20th May 2012 13:52

I arrived at Heathrow at 05:00 yesterday morning and had to transfer from T3 to T5. I was ahead of the pack and as I got to the bus stop, the bus pulled away with 3 pax on board, just as the 50 or 60 people who wanted to transfer were coming down the escalators behind me. We then all stood about for 20 minutes, despite the service supposedly running every seven minutes. It is this kind of incompetence that gives LHR such a bad name and will surely cause it to struggle during the Olympics.

WHBM 20th May 2012 15:00


Originally Posted by wub (Post 7200417)
I arrived at Heathrow at 05:00 yesterday morning and had to transfer from T3 to T5. I was ahead of the pack and as I got to the bus stop, the bus pulled away with 3 pax on board, just as the 50 or 60 people who wanted to transfer were coming down the escalators behind me. We then all stood about for 20 minutes, despite the service supposedly running every seven minutes.

This is typical of outsourced services (such as the Heathrow Transfer bus) nowadays, where the only measure is whether the bus leaves at the appointed moment, say at 05.10. Whether there are a large number of passengers approaching is completely by-the-by to those from Heathrow who gave out the contract. They will of course never be around at that time of morning to see the doors slammed in the face of those approaching, and probably can't even understand why people are dissatisfied with this approach.

The "every 7 minutes" may be a generic statement, but will doubtless only apply to some other times of the day, not at 05.10 on a weekend morning when the desire to avoid night payments will be paramount, so the schedule at that time is doubtless one bus only. The normal excuse why the full agreed service timetable is not shown is "to mke it easy to understand".

ExXB 21st May 2012 08:42

Some years ago I was transferring from t4 to T3 (BA online GVA-LHR-HKG). As we approached the shuttle bus stand I overheard a couple of staff talking about "a fire in the tunnel". So I stopped and asked them if they meant the cargo tunnel used by the shuttle buses. They confirmed that the buses were not running, and they had no idea when they would.

Although I had a legal connection the inbound did arrive late and it was getting tight. I asked them about immigration queues and was informed that going land side was probably "an" option. So my colleague and I did that, and with HEX got to T3 as they were beginning to board.

Got on the plane and then waited over 2 hours for connecting passengers. Guess where they were?. Apparently they waited until the fire was put out, the tunnel was inspected, and evening tea break was taken. According to the man accross the aisle no announcement was made to the 'hundreds' of the connecting passengers at T4 and no suggestion made that many passengers could do the landslide connection that we did. Once the buses starting running there was only one every 20 minutes or so.

Missed my connecting flight in HKG, but CX took care of us…

PAXboy 21st May 2012 11:57

In my experience, ExXB, that is exactly what happens when you take a business and chop it up into little pieces. If you separate and outsource and split to save money, there are gaps that occur where there used to be joins.

On legal paper - it all looks fine - and can be proved to be fine. But it isn't because humans are involved.

I won't start my usual rant about this commercial process that I first saw in the USA in 1988 and has spread as a contagion through government as well. :ugh:

PAXboy 23rd May 2012 00:25

Avoid Monday 13th August
 
BBC News - London 2012: Heathrow Airport in numbers
Interesting reading, some big numbers here.



Heathrow in numbers - how the UK's biggest airport is getting ready for the Olympic and Paralympic Games. Some 500,000 people will be flying into London for the Olympics and Paralympics this summer.That includes 100,000 athletes, 20,000 members of the media and 150 heads of state. Most of them will arrive via Heathrow.

It will be the start and finish line for the bulk of visitors, giving the country's biggest airport its busiest day ever.That day will be Monday 13 August, the day after the closing ceremony and the day 65% of visitors are planning to leave.


Some 203,000 bags will be squeezed on to the baggage system - that's 35% more than on a normal day and about 13,000 more than it is designed to handle.


Of those bags, 15,000 will be oversized - full of canoes, javelins, bikes and poles for the pole vault. There will also be more than 980 firearms to check, plus ammunition.

DaveReidUK 23rd May 2012 20:20


full of canoes, javelins, bikes and poles for the pole vault
I'm pretty sure you'd get disqualified for using a bike in the pole vault, though I believe canoes and javelins are allowed for their entertainment value.

Chuchinchow 27th May 2012 09:54

The cost of confectionery - and quadrennial sporting contests
 
I used to enjoy being able to afford and to consume walnut whips. When do readers/contributors to this thread think I will be able to buy one again?

Behind the Curtain 29th May 2012 14:34

Sportsfest 2012
 
Being a hand-wringing liberal, I have at least two opposing opinions about the Olympics. I think the games themselves are a great thing, albeit one that we wouldn't be paying for had the economy entered its current state a few years early. But they *are* happening, and I want to make the most of it. I don't mind the inconvenience, but then I don't know how much I'll get yet.

What I am more than wary of is the "corporate" side of things and the meddling in our affairs that the IOC require. The shop at St Pancras that is "proud to only accept Visa".

I thought TightSlot's post a page or so back was very eloquent. If it is a minority that is against the games, it isn't small. I think that's a bit sad but I hope I have at least tried to understand why.

As to LHR... Here's just one sample in millions: I came back from FRA at about 2100 last night. I would have had a short wait at immigration (5 mins?) but as IRIS was working I was straight through in about a minute. Luggage appeared quickly. The BA flight before it was perfect, and at the start of the journey there were just 30 minutes between putting the last glass down at the Wäldchestag and walking through to air-side. A quiet evening, certainly, but a journey of a kind we all deserve from time to time!


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